Initiative: Let's save the Nuns

[*Furyou Miko]

The thing is, Sinner, we have the Inquisition option - ally with Grey Knights and you can have Inquisitors.

 

That is, after all, all you're doing by including Inquisitors in a Sister of Battle codex, only both Allies are in the same book.

[Onisuzume]

Hm... what would an Inquisition option add to the SoB-codex that isn't already possible with Grey Knights as allies?

Otherwise it'd end up being a copy&paste job.

[Eddie Orlock]

I guess I may be the minority here, but I want organic Inquisitorial elements in my 'Witch Hunter' army I want them there to oversee my militias. I want them there to authorise the arcoflagellants and penitent engines. I enjoyed the 'freakshow' elements of the previous codex and want them embedded into the list.

 

The Inquisition bits included would be slightly different units, it's a diverse organisation.

 

However, with Ward at the helm, I'm confident that won't see the cool oddball things, but we might get 'The Attack of the 50 foot Battle Sister'.

[Vigrid Of Asgaror]

Inquistion is already in 40k, it doesn't need to be represented in another Codex.

 

I would much rather more Sister unit and vehicles. That is the main reason I bought a Sisters of Battle army.

[SinnerBeta]

Why should I play around with allies and buy non-Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor HQ just to gain access to Inquisitorial Henchmen ? Or alternatively ruin the War of Faith theme with Grey Knights Troopers just so that I can field a single Inquisitor ? Why can't we have unique Ordo Hereticus units ? Or Zealots ? Or other Allies ?

 

Why do you want to deny others an army they want even if it wouldn't stop you from fielding the army you want ? With the new Grey Knights codex they added plenty of new options for Grey Knights without slapping the old Daemon Hunters' players hands away and saying "nu-uh, you can't have that because I want Grey Knights only book". Some of us got into Sisters thanks to Witch Hunters and like that part of the army. You don't see us saying "hey, we already have people in power armor with bolters, so lets dump the Sisters and concentrate on the Ecclesiarchy." - that would be selfish and unnecessary.

[*Furyou Miko]

It's not our fault that the Inquisition codex suffers from Grey Knight fanboyism. That's the kind of gak we want to avoid - including Inquisition stuff dilutes the potential for Sisters units, it doesn't add anything.

 

The reason we want to keep the Inquisition out of the Sisters codex is because the Inquisition have nothing to do with the Sisters. Even in Codex: Witch Hunters, it was just a mish-mash of allied armies for the sake of filling space.

 

As for "dumping Sisters to focus on the Ecclesiarchy", that's a fallacy. I think it might even be a strawman, but I'm not well versed in the technical lingo of debate. The Sisters of Battle are the army of the Ecclesiarchy.

 

I guess you don't understand how the heirarchy of powers actually works, though.

 

The Inquisition is an independent organisation that controls the Grey Knights and the Stormtrooper regiment.

 

The Ecclesiarchy is an independent organisation that controls the Sisters of Battle.

 

The Administratum is an independent organisation that controls the PDF and technically the Space Marines.

 

The Munitorium is an independent organisation that controls the Imperial Guard.

 

The Mechanicum is an independent organisation that controls the Skitarii.

 

You can't have Grey Knights without having the Inquisition - they're part of the same organisation.

 

What YOU are trying to say, is that the Sisters of Battle and the Inquisition are also part of the same organisation. Which is wrong.

 

If you include Inquisition units in the Sisters of Battle book, you should include them in the Imperial Guard book too - they're about as relevant to each other. The Ordo Xenos maintain a close alliance with them, after all, just like the Ordo Hereticus maintain a close alliance with the Adepta Sororitas.

[Enhrjr]

Miko's right, just look at the allies matrix. Sisters are battle brothers with the IG only. Grey Knights rank the same as all the other space marines (except BT). They tolerate each other. That's about it.

[SinnerBeta]

 

It's not our fault that the Inquisition codex suffers from Grey Knight

fanboyism. That's the kind of gak we want to avoid - including

Inquisition stuff dilutes the potential for Sisters units, it doesn't

add anything.

 

Calling bull on that. It not only doesn't dilute anything as we can see with all the new GK units, it adds the whole War of Faith theme among other things.

 

 

The reason we want to keep the Inquisition out of the Sisters codex is because the Inquisition have nothing to do with the Sisters. Even in Codex: Witch Hunters, it was just a mish-mash of allied armies for the sake of filling space.

 

Calling bull on this as well. Not only is there Convocation of the Nephilim, the old Chamber Militant thing (currently in canon limbo but still), WITCH HUNTING, and so on. It was an army following the above mentioned theme of Witch Hunting and the theme was great.

 

 

 

As for "dumping Sisters to focus on the Ecclesiarchy", that's a fallacy.

I think it might even be a strawman, but I'm not well versed in the

technical lingo of debate. The Sisters of Battle are the army of the Ecclesiarchy.

 

It was an example of your reasoning: oh hey guys, we already have an army of Inquisition military arm clad in power armor, wielding bolters, with a power per squad, rhino, rhino gun platforms, open walkers, etc - the Grey Knights, so let's dump the Sisters. Want a more realistic example ? Codex Imperium Agents - you're probably familiar with it but here's for those who don't know: stuff with no place or right for their own codex (Inquisition proper, Assassins, Sisters, Deathwatch, etc) will be given a separate codex that allows them to be fielded as allies only, with some exceptions (for example you could take an Inquisitor as an IG HQ). Minis called Imperial Agents were already sighted on one the leaked documents from GW so the rumor might be true, which would not only not give Sisters no new options but turn them into "allies only" - not a pretty option and very similar to what you're proposing, isn't it ?

 

 

You can't have Grey Knights without having the Inquisition - they're part of the same organisation.

 

Wrooooooooooooooooooooooong. They're the Chamber Militant of the Inquisition which means they work with them, just like the Sisters.

 

 

What YOU are trying to say, is that the Sisters of Battle and the Inquisition are also part of the same organisation. Which is wrong.

 

What I'm trying to say is Convocation of Nephilim, War of Faiths and witch hunting. Point me to a spot in my post where I say they're the same organization.

 

 

If you include Inquisition units in the Sisters of Battle book, you

should include them in the Imperial Guard book too - they're about as

relevant to each other. The Ordo Xenos maintain a close alliance with

them, after all, just like the Ordo Hereticus maintain a close alliance

with the Adepta Sororitas.

 

a) see Codex Allies above

b) didn't know Ordo Xenos had the Convocation of Nephilim with Imperial Guard and not, like, is can command them just as any other Ordo. Because what the relationship the Inquisition has with Imperial Guard is totally the same as the one it has with Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle and Deathwatch, right ?

 

 

 

Miko's right, just look at the allies matrix. Sisters are battle

brothers with the IG only. Grey Knights rank the same as all the other

space marines (except BT). They tolerate each other. That's about it.

 

Not only what you said makes no sense from the POV of this discussion, you also don't want to bring the Allies Matrix into this or soon we will be discussing about why the hell Tyranids can't ally with anyone and so on.

[Hanska]

I'm with Miko on this one. I don't want inquisitors in our codex because they just don't belong there. I did enjoy fielding inq units in the C:WH-era and like having the option of doing that thanks to 6th ed ally rules.

I just wan't a codex full of sisters, priests and (other) religious fanatics.

[SinnerBeta]

Ok, sorry, but you're just being unreasonable: you're basically walking up to all old Witch Hunter players that enjoyed the War of Faith army and slapping their hands from THEIR army and saying they can no longer use some of their minis because you don't like it.

 

Allies are not the solution because the limited slots you to either are FORCED to take Grey Knights if you want Karamazov or FORCED to take that Ordo MALLEUS Inquisitor if you want to field a Warband. Get GW to remove that limitation and THEN we can talk as if it's an actual solution.

[*Furyou Miko]

I'm sorry, but you make me want to slap you.

 

Wars of Faith are a Sisters thing, not an Inquisition thing! Taking the Inquisition out of the Sisters  list makes it MORE like you're saying you want it to be!

 

Witch hunting? You may not have noticed, but Witch Finders work for the Ecclesiarchy, not the Inquisition (Reference: Hereticus by Dan Abnett / Witch Finder Tyrus).

 

The Sisters are not the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus! The ONLY place that was ever mentioned was with an interview with Jervis Johnson in which he stated that the Inquisitors were put into C:WH because they wanted to put the Ordo Hereticus on the table somewhere but didn't have an army for them, and it would make sense if they were the chamber militant because their jobs are the same!

 

The Imperial Guard and the Adepta Sororitas have exactly the same relationship with the Inquisition, which is NOT the same as that between the Grey Knights or the Deathwatch and the Inquisition. The Convocation of Nephilim including the "codification of the relationship between the Daughters of the Emperor and the Ordo Hereticus" was created by a third party developer based off the incredibly vague fluff in Codex: Witch Hunters and that so-often-misquoted interview with Jervis.

 

In the original, GW-published fluff, the Convocation of Nephilim stated that the Daughters of the Emperor were allowed to remain in tact in the role of guardians to ensure that the Ecclesiarchy did not go mad with power again, to protect the church from heretics, and to keep Imperial worlds clear of heresy.

 

At the same time, it decreed the founding of an Inquisitional Ordo - the Hereticus - whose role was effectively the same. The important difference was that the Daughters were under the control of the Ecclesiarchy, while the Ordo Hereticus would remain under the control of the Administratum. In this way, another Reign of Blood would be prevented from happening, as there were checks on both sides.

 

In short, by removing the Inquisition units from Codex: Sisters of Battle, all you are doing is removing allied Inquisitors, Stormtroopers and Assassins from the army list. The Adepta Sororitas will still make Wars of Faith, they will still hunt out heresy and witchcraft, and they will still be awesome. What they will not be is mistaken for lackeys of those sanctioned witches the Administratum calls Inquisitors, as so many people - yourself included - have done.

 

As for why Tyranids can't ally with anyone, it's because they're not Genestealer Cults. As far as fixing Codex: Grey Knights goes, it needs a lot of work. This isn't the appropriate place to discuss that, but for a start they need Inquisitorial Stormtroopers as a Troops Choice, and at the very least access to Valkyries in Fast Attack, because that is one thing I do agree with you on. Grey Knights should be a unit or two in Codex: Inquisition, not the other way round as it is now. It's not about "Inquisitional Agents with Power Armour and Bolters". It's about the slaughtering of the fluff that comes with turning Sisters into Inquisitorial Lackeys and turning Grey Knights into an infinitely large army of magical girls.

[SinnerBeta]

 

I'm sorry, but you make me want to slap you.

Well it's good to hear that we're keeping this civilized.

 

 

Wars of Faith are a Sisters thing, not an Inquisition thing! Taking

the Inquisition out of the Sisters  list makes it MORE like you're

saying you want it to be!

Wars of Faith are almost always overseen by Ordo Hereticus who sometimes even takes part.

 

 

Witch hunting? You may not have noticed, but Witch Finders work for the Ecclesiarchy, not the Inquisition (Reference: Hereticus by Dan Abnett / Witch Finder Tyrus).

You may have not noticed, but according to Black Library canon Space Marine Terminators use Multilasers, Eldars have kidneys and Sisters sleep around and constantly fall to Chaos.

 

 

The Sisters are not the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus!

The ONLY place that was ever mentioned was with an interview with

Jervis Johnson in which he stated that the Inquisitors were put into

C:WH because they wanted to put the Ordo Hereticus on the table somewhere but didn't have an army for them, and it would make sense if they were the chamber militant because their jobs are the same!

Oh hello Witch Hunter Codex. What's that ? Page 5 ?

 

"Though the Adepta Sororitas would forever remain the Ecclesiarchy's primary armed force, they would also become the Chamber Militant of Ordo Hereticus."

 

 

The Imperial Guard and the Adepta Sororitas have exactly the same

relationship with the Inquisition, which is NOT the same as that between

the Grey Knights or the Deathwatch and the Inquisition.

Wrong.

 

 

The Convocation of Nephilim including the "codification of the

relationship between the Daughters of the Emperor and the Ordo

Hereticus" was created by a third party developer based off the

incredibly vague fluff in Codex: Witch Hunters and that

so-often-misquoted interview with Jervis.

And yet it's there.

 

 

In the original, GW-published fluff, the Convocation of Nephilim stated

that the Daughters of the Emperor were allowed to remain in tact in the

role of guardians to ensure that the Ecclesiarchy did not go mad with

power again, to protect the church from heretics, and to keep Imperial

worlds clear of heresy.

Old, original fluff also mentioned Sisters being renegade Space Marine hunters, half-Eldar Ultramarine, Sisters of Battle being the Chamber Militant of Ordo Hereticus and so on - the fluff marches on.

 

 

At the same time, it decreed the founding of an Inquisitional Ordo - the

Hereticus - whose role was effectively the same. The important

difference was that the Daughters were under the control of the

Ecclesiarchy, while the Ordo Hereticus would remain under the control of

the Administratum. In this way, another Reign of Blood would be

prevented from happening, as there were checks on both sides.

Yes, and ? We're discussing their joint operations, not foundation.

 

 

 

In short, by removing the Inquisition units from Codex: Sisters of

Battle, all you are doing is removing allied Inquisitors, Stormtroopers

and Assassins from the army list. The Adepta Sororitas will still make

Wars of Faith, they will still hunt out heresy and witchcraft, and they

will still be awesome. What they will not be is mistaken for

lackeys of those sanctioned witches the Administratum calls Inquisitors,

as so many people - yourself included - have done.

The only thing you do by removing them is telling people they can't no longer use their minis unless they use Allies, which in turn blocks them off from fielding other allies they wanted. All you're doing is putting unnecessary limitations because basically some people didn't understand the fluff and you didn't like it.

 

 

As for why Tyranids can't ally with anyone, it's because they're not Genestealer Cults.

Yes, and a IG+Chaos/Daemon isn't Lost and Damned, nor can you make traitor Guards working for the Greater Good. Just let Guards take some Genestealers and you'll see the stuff they'll come up with and what models they'll make to represent a Cult.

 

 

As far as fixing Codex: Grey Knights goes, it needs a lot of work. This

isn't the appropriate place to discuss that, but for a start they need

Inquisitorial Stormtroopers as a Troops Choice, and at the very least

access to Valkyries in Fast Attack, because that is one thing I do agree with you on.

But why can't we have that in our codex ? No one would force you to field them and you would still get plenty of new units for Sisters.

 

 

Grey Knights should be a unit or two in Codex: Inquisition, not the other way round as it is now.

That I can agree with. IF they made a proper Inquisition codex that would offer all the Ordo Hereticus options with a Battle Brother alliance to the Sisters I would be fine with Sister-only codex because then everyone would get what they want, not shove the others under the bus just because they don't like their units.

 

 

It's not about "Inquisitional Agents with Power Armour and Bolters".

It's about the slaughtering of the fluff that comes with turning Sisters

into Inquisitorial Lackeys and turning Grey Knights into an infinitely

large army of magical girls.

It's about telling people they can't play their army because YOU don't like the fluff. And they're not lackeys, they're Chamber Militant.

 

ALL players should be respected, BOTH Witch Hunters and Sisters puritans and that's what I stand by.

[Onisuzume]

Quote

Wars of Faith are almost always overseen by Ordo Hereticus who sometimes even takes part.

Mostly to ensure that it doesn't turn heretic in turn.

The Siege of Vraks campaign provides a nice insight into a conclave about an Inquisitor having to argue against the Ecclesiarchy that what's happening on Vraks falls within the jurisdiction of the Inquisition rather than that of the Ecclesiarchy, which would normally have to respond to heretic cardinals and the like. Ordo Hereticus or not.

 

As for that allies matrix; its just plain crazy sometimes, and in a few cases outright opposes canon fluff.

Dark Angels allying with xenos? Canon (and an old codex) outright state that it didn't happen.

 

As for what an Ecclesiarchy list would look like, other than the Sisters...

Well, there's that vraksian renegades & heretics list that could be used as a basis for it.

Swap CSM for Sisters, Chaos Lieutenant for a Celestian/Canoness, and the mutants for... acro-flagellants?

 

I'd also think that FW would have the potential of adding a new list/units if they'd get around to doing it. The few pages we got in IA2 only gave us the Repressor (which got nerfed lately), and maybe a few different weapon options for the Immolator/Rhino and a different pattern of Exorcist (had the same rules as in the old codex). Imo, they could do more and better.

 

As for whether or not we should have =][= in a new codex:

What would they bring to the table that cannot already be done with GK as allies?

Think there's some fluff out there that states that acro-flagellation doesn't require the permission of an Inquisitor, neither does the use of a penitant engine. So that is something they wouldn't bring.

Frateris Militia would be "unlocked" or some such by priests/confessors. So what would they add to the codex other than the HQ/Elite choices we already got in C:GK (Inquisitors (Lords), Assassins)?

Right a non-GK troop choice (Battle Sisters/Frateris Militia already present in the codex), but what else? Inducted Stormtroopers/IG Platoons would just delute the list.

 

Fluff aside, what would justify their inclusion that doesn't amount to a copy&paste job?

[*Furyou Miko]

You'll note that I said want to, not that I actually did it.

 

 

I'm sorry, but you make me want to slap you.

Well it's good to hear that we're keeping this civilized.

Wars of Faith are almost always overseen by Ordo Hereticus who sometimes even takes part.

 

Because the Ordo Hereticus' job is to make sure that the Adepta Sororitas don't go crazy and renege their oaths. Oversee does NOT equal lead, organise or prosecute.

You may have not noticed, but according to Black Library canon Space Marine Terminators use Multilasers, Eldars have kidneys and Sisters sleep around and constantly fall to Chaos.

Eldar may well have kidneys, there's no reason for a Terminator not to carry a multilaser (although you'll note that Goto's books are no longer available) and... I've got nothing for the last one other than the fact that every dispersed authorship has some bad apples.

Oh hello Witch Hunter Codex. What's that ? Page 5 ?

 

"Though the Adepta Sororitas would forever remain the Ecclesiarchy's primary armed force, they would also become the Chamber Militant of Ordo Hereticus."

 

That was recanted in the designer's notes for the white dwarf supplement.

Wrong.

 

No, you're wrong.

And yet it's there.

And actively redacted. But if you want to include FFG stuff, then Sisters are all extra-heretical anyway because they use supernatural space magic powers.

Old, original fluff also mentioned Sisters being renegade Space Marine hunters, half-Eldar Ultramarine, Sisters of Battle being the Chamber Militant of Ordo Hereticus and so on - the fluff marches on.

Sisters are renegade Space Marine hunters, and the half-eldar Astropath wasn't an Ultramarine, he was just the leader of their Librarium, during a stage in the fluff when the Ultramarines weren't even a First Founding legion - so again, that's been actively recanted and is irrelevent. Just like the Chamber Militant bit. As you say, the fluff marches on - Sisters are not Hereticus.Their foundation is directly relevant to their operations, joint or otherwise. You can't just dismiss it.

 

 

 

At the same time, it decreed the founding of an Inquisitional Ordo - the
Hereticus - whose role was effectively the same. The important
difference was that the Daughters were under the control of the
Ecclesiarchy, while the Ordo Hereticus would remain under the control of
the Administratum. In this way, another Reign of Blood would be
prevented from happening, as there were checks on both sides.

Yes, and ? We're discussing their joint operations, not foundation.
 

The only thing you do by removing them is telling people they can't no longer use their minis unless they use Allies, which in turn blocks them off from fielding other allies they wanted. All you're doing is putting unnecessary limitations because basically some people didn't understand the fluff and you didn't like it.

The whole codex/allies system exists to artificially limit what units you can take in an Imperial army! You may as well say that having Codex: Imperial Guard is unfair because it means you can't take Blood Angels allied to your Ultramar Defence Force Marines/Guard army!

 

 

 

As for why Tyranids can't ally with anyone, it's because they're not Genestealer Cults.

Yes, and a IG+Chaos/Daemon isn't Lost and Damned, nor can you make traitor Guards working for the Greater Good. Just let Guards take some Genestealers and you'll see the stuff they'll come up with and what models they'll make to represent a Cult.

I didn't say it was a good reason. I suspect there's a plan for a Genestealer Cult list in a future white dwarf. Possibly when they redo Guard.

 

But why can't we have that in our codex ? No one would force you to field them and you would still get plenty of new units for Sisters.

Inquisitorial Stormtroopers as a Troops Choice, and at the very least
access to Valkyries in Fast Attack, because that is one thing I do agree with you on.

I don't know. Why can't we have Black Templars in our codex? Nobody would force you to field them.Right. You dig the hole, I'll deal with the messy bit, and we'll get apply for the suddenly open Games Dev positions...

 

 

 

Grey Knights should be a unit or two in Codex: Inquisition, not the other way round as it is now.

That I can agree with. IF they made a proper Inquisition codex that would offer all the Ordo Hereticus options with a Battle Brother alliance to the Sisters I would be fine with Sister-only codex because then everyone would get what they want, not shove the others under the bus just because they don't like their units.

It's about telling people they can't play their army because YOU don't like the fluff. And they're not lackeys, they're Chamber Militant.

 

ALL players should be respected, BOTH Witch Hunters and Sisters puritans and that's what I stand by.

 

Chamber Militant just means "The bit of the organisation that does the fighting", so yes - they would be lackeys.

[Warsmith Aznable]

ALL players should be respected, BOTH Witch Hunters and Sisters puritans and that's what I stand by.

 

I understand your position and empathise. Hear me out on this, though.

 

Witchhunters and Daemonhunters is an anomaly from an old edition. I say that because they are codices centered around ideas rather than an Imperial organisation. Codex: Grey Knights is an Inquisitorial codex that focuses heavily on a sub-faction within the Inquisition, a Codex: Sisters of Battle is an Ecclesiarchal codex that focuses heavily on a sub-faction within the Ecclesiarchy. Including an Inquisitor in an Ecclesiarchy codex is akin to putting a Space Marine Captain in an Imperial Guard codex, from an organisational point of view.

 

Like I said, I empathise with your desire to use an old Witchhunters style army, and I'm not 'giving you the finger' or wanting to take away anything from you personally. But you're wanting to hold on to something from 3rd edition in a 6th edition environment, and that something is essentially, by 6th edition design standards, giving you allies without having to pay for them. If anybody else who plays the game in 6th edition wants to use different Imperial organisations for thematic purposes they have to pay the 'allies tax', but you're asking that an entire Imperial organisation be denied getting to have its own codex so that you can play your desired theme without having to work around the sames points and FOC problems that everyone else does.

[Kurgan the Lurker]

Ok, since the children don't seem to be able to play together we are putting this one to bed for a bit. Maybe after people have cooled off we will open it again.