State of the Union (Heresy)

[Blood-worm's Master]

Miniatures:

 

We're currently still awaiting the release of the Word Bearer Praetors, miniatures that were shown in April last year. This has got to be one of the longest previews that we've seen from FW/GW in history.

 

There are still plenty of units currently not represented with miniatures support, which means even if books are currently on the back burner due to lack of resources that these could at least be filled out. FW claimed to want a Legion Leviathan as well as TDA and AA Praetors for each Legion. The fact that very few models have come out for AoD in the past year makes me think that they've frustratingly reallocated most of the sculptors to other games systems which are receiving regular support.

 

The fact that there are (or at least were at the end of 2019/beginning of 2020, because the newest models we've seen are from that time - and I hope against the hope that the situation have improved in the meantime) only two sculptors working regularly on AoD worries me almost as much as Neil Wylie being the last fluff and rules designer left.

The gentlemen in question are Fil Dunn (DA units, Contekar and Tarvitz) and Neil P. Roberts (not the same as the artist who does the novel covers - WB Praetors and before that all BA except for Contemptor, Crimson Paladins and Raldoron and all WS except for Cataphractii Praetor and Contemptor) by the way.

This January I exchanged a couple of messages with Anuj, asking him about the sculptors of some models and from his answers it seems that those two have done everything since around the end of 2018 - with just the exceptions of 'guest appearances' of Chris Drew of AT fame (Sabre - although as Anuj put it 'he only did the Sabre because Neil and I twisted his arm :P' and he 'doesn't think Chris would want to do another resin project'), Simon Egan (The Lion) and another veteran heresy designer, Mr Stuart Williamson (Arquitors - him being present still, at least in some capacity, gives me much hope and if only it wasn't his last project for AoD).

 

It seems obvious to me that Heresy is currently suffering from model and content release scarcity because the forgeworld miniatures designers (the guys who do resin models, separate from the designers who sculpt the plastic SG stuff) and some of the people who do the artwork and stuff for books have been working on Warhammer: The Old World.

 

That's part of the problem, but there is another, much worse thing: AoD has become a system to which they assign junior sculptors in order for them to practise and gain experience - only to be moved to ('more important') Specialist Games later.

Alexandre Dumillard is a good example of that - he started around 2018, working on resin models for AoD, but 'got promoted' quickly and became a plastic designer for SG systems (while still working on some resin but only for Necromunda and Blood Bowl) and I think in 2020 finally moved to the main studio.

With all due respect to Fil and Neil, I think the results of this approach are clearly visible and models nowadays are much more hit-and-miss (my main problem with them is the 'take a CAD of plastic armour mark and just put some protruding ornaments/details on it' thing) than in 'the golden age of 2012-2015' when the team consisted of veteran FW and Warhammer Forge sculptors.

 

But to end on a more positive note, here's yesterday's comment from Anuj:

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Blood-worm's Master

[depthcharge12]

Just going to echo what I’ve heard here as well, the communication is absolutely killing them. It’s kind of obnoxious that our releases are related to a model that had rules 8 years ago (Tarvitz) and ones that were previewed almost a year ago (WB praetors). I mean at this point I’m almost expect the Arlatax model from like 4 years ago lol.

 

Sure I understand COVID is a thing but that pertains mostly to shipping and possibly production. I think it’s being used as more of an excuse than it should. If it’s really a team of 1 dude...who is he going to cough on? XD

 

Working for an enterprised sized manufacturer (admittedly an essential business), our engineering team has been able to do CADs and ECN’s either remotely or limitedly at the office. What’s so hard about writing a book/rules from your laptop or doing sculpting at home?

 

 

The heresy isn’t dead, but it lacks more direction than Typhon in the warp.

[Indefragable]

...but that "team of 1" perhaps had elderly parents to care for during COVID. There are so many tendrils to the pandemic, which is why it's such a devastating thing. 

 

I don't disagree that it feels like it's being overused; like....ok, it's been over a year now, haven't you kind of figured out how to get productive in this new world? 

 

...but then again, it is GW, so sanity is not always their strong suit. 

 

By any standard of measure, FW needs to get off its duff and start talking to its customers some more. It's time. No more excuses, no more BS. Just talk to us, tell us what's going on, give us a rough roadmap. Like the community torches and pitchforks response is absolutely justified at this point (and I'm usually one urging caution and understanding). I'm not saying we storm the castle, but we definitely gather on the road in front of it and not let them sleep. 

[Taliesin]

Regarding the books:

 

Crusade, the most recent was significantly shorter than the other projects (incidentally Anuj has declared that significant work had been done on book 10 before his resignation), yet apparently the Dark Mechanicum were cut from it as there wasn't enough room. This could be beneficial meaning that the Dark Mechanicum may be a significant army list.

 

 

 

Just wanted to check cause that is news to me, any link to where Anuj posted that info on book 10? I dont have FB.

 

We do know from a Warhammer Open Day report in November 2019 (!) that by that time Book 10 was far into production, I certainly would expect it to be done by now, or nearly so. 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Taliesin

[SkimaskMohawk]

...but that "team of 1" perhaps had elderly parents to care for during COVID. There are so many tendrils to the pandemic, which is why it's such a devastating thing.

 

I don't disagree that it feels like it's being overused; like....ok, it's been over a year now, haven't you kind of figured out how to get productive in this new world?

 

...but then again, it is GW, so sanity is not always their strong suit.

 

By any standard of measure, FW needs to get off its duff and start talking to its customers some more. It's time. No more excuses, no more BS. Just talk to us, tell us what's going on, give us a rough roadmap. Like the community torches and pitchforks response is absolutely justified at this point (and I'm usually one urging caution and understanding). I'm not saying we storm the castle, but we definitely gather on the road in front of it and not let them sleep.

A junior worker in gw could have been seconded to work on the faq throughout the past year. It's the perfect thing to do from home and doesn't need necessarily any design experience like a new book. Theres a lot of spare resources that could have been shuffled to optimize their furloughed.

[Hfran Morkai]

I feel I may have gotten my wires crossed with that announcement, him in his post announcing his departure from FW saying we'd "see his invisible hands for some time to come" and a few unreleased projects on his LinkedIn profile.

 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/anujmalhotra87?originalSubdomain=uk

 

Interesting to see him saying great things are coming (sadly that comment thread on fb seems to have been removed since). I'm kind of hoping we don't see a move to 9th (although I appreciate it would mean people could more easily cross the games systems, don't have to worry about multiple rules sets) as I really don't want to lose the tactical decisions such as vehicle facings and have lasguns capable of killing Titans (personally).

[Taliesin]

I agree that his Linkedin certainly suggests we'll at least get 1 Black Book this year, which is of course the expectation anyway, but of course we dont know when. But it also suggests another book, however I am sceptical of 2 different Books being released in 1 year, even if the other is just a revised Red Book of some kind.

[sarabando]

GW/FW needs to treat heresy a bit like they did the sisters release just give us some early information, show us the Cad renders, give us a short video on the process and the upcomming events/releases.

 

the current Oooo look new minis comming soon  *6month wait*  NOW UP FOR PRE ORDER! *1 week later* "Temporarily out of stock" is just building distrust and disdain.

[Brofist]

I'm kind of hoping we don't see a move to 9th (although I appreciate it would mean people could more easily cross the games systems, don't have to worry about multiple rules sets) as I really don't want to lose the tactical decisions such as vehicle facings and have lasguns capable of killing Titans (personally).

To be a broken record- HH is a separate game system. Having it go to 9th is as likely as Hobbit using the AoS rules.

 

I've done effort posts about the FW studio so I'll spare everybody another one, but to summarize- they have brain drain and organizational issues. Hard to say why HH doesn't get priority though like everybody I love imagining them working on a big secret project like Age of Darkness 2nd edition.

[StrangerOrders]

Thing is that we really cannot do anything about this tbh.

 

If we do not buy then they will just gut it more.

 

If we buy, and lets be real the bulk of us do and alot, then we are doing as we have been and they are puzzlingly enough not even that interested in keeping a stock for us to be able to buy.

 

They seem very much able to ignore our complaints and the specialists games frankly get a stupid amount of hype behind them.

 

So, as much as it sucks to say, what can we do when FW literally does not seem to care about this aspect of their business?

[jaxom]

They work ahead so it's not really a surprise there's stuff he worked on that hasn't been released yet.

 

I think Heresy is in a weird place; it's a holdover from a different time in FW's production model. The other systems have a model that works now. Core kits in plastic, expansions in resin, unique rulesets, smaller forces needed. The last two, in my mind, are key. There's a more noticeable difference for new players and growing interest in a game when it's not "an old edition of 40k played with only Space Marines," to paraphrase a friend of mine who stopped playing it. It's easier to get people into a one-and-done core boxset purchase and then hook them into buying a few characters or upgrade kits or a second gang/team/warband/maniple with another one-and-done faction box (and perhaps a few more resin characters or upgrade kits to go with it). Note that each of the previous HH plastic "core boxsets" were sold as one-and-done board games.

 

Overcoming either of those barriers is paradigm shift and may not go over well with the community. The Big Red Book was a bit of sunken cost fallacy in my opinion, but it means we're stuck in terms of core rules. A new core plastic range is definitely doable, and in more ways than one. However, deciding to invest in a 30k core plastic line large enough for whole armies is a big decision for a parent company which has a lot of other projects for their two core systems that need some plastic loving. I think it's entirely possible that no one on the communications-side knows what the upper-folk have in store for the future because the upper-folk haven't decided yet. And that includes slowing down releases to stretch out how long they have before they reach the end of what's already in the pipeline and actually having to decide.

 

Having said all that, I expect any new core plastics to be MkV and/or a more cobbled together look for armor as the focus of the series shifts towards the latter half of the Heresy. Why release MkII kits when the Black Books are going to be looking at how different many of the legions are from their Istvaan incarnations?

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Miniatures:

 

We're currently still awaiting the release of the Word Bearer Praetors, miniatures that were shown in April last year. This has got to be one of the longest previews that we've seen from FW/GW in history.

 

There are still plenty of units currently not represented with miniatures support, which means even if books are currently on the back burner due to lack of resources that these could at least be filled out. FW claimed to want a Legion Leviathan as well as TDA and AA Praetors for each Legion. The fact that very few models have come out for AoD in the past year makes me think that they've frustratingly reallocated most of the sculptors to other games systems which are receiving regular support.

The fact that there are (or at least were at the end of 2019/beginning of 2020, because the newest models we've seen are from that time - and I hope against the hope that the situation have improved in the meantime) only two sculptors working regularly on AoD worries me almost as much as Neil Wylie being the last fluff and rules designer left.

The gentlemen in question are Fil Dunn (DA units, Contekar and Tarvitz) and Neil P. Roberts (not the same as the artist who does the novel covers - WB Praetors and before that all BA except for Contemptor, Crimson Paladins and Raldoron and all WS except for Cataphractii Praetor and Contemptor) by the way.

This January I exchanged a couple of messages with Anuj, asking him about the sculptors of some models and from his answers it seems that those two have done everything since around the end of 2018 - with just the exceptions of 'guest appearances' of Chris Drew of AT fame (Sabre - although as Anuj put it 'he only did the Sabre because Neil and I twisted his arm :P' and he 'doesn't think Chris would want to do another resin project'), Simon Egan (The Lion) and another veteran heresy designer, Mr Stuart Williamson (Arquitors - him being present still, at least in some capacity, gives me much hope and if only it wasn't his last project for AoD).

It seems obvious to me that Heresy is currently suffering from model and content release scarcity because the forgeworld miniatures designers (the guys who do resin models, separate from the designers who sculpt the plastic SG stuff) and some of the people who do the artwork and stuff for books have been working on Warhammer: The Old World.

That's part of the problem, but there is another, much worse thing: AoD has become a system to which they assign junior sculptors in order for them to practise and gain experience - only to be moved to ('more important') Specialist Games later.

Alexandre Dumillard is a good example of that - he started around 2018, working on resin models for AoD, but 'got promoted' quickly and became a plastic designer for SG systems (while still working on some resin but only for Necromunda and Blood Bowl) and I think in 2020 finally moved to the main studio.

With all due respect to Fil and Neil, I think the results of this approach are clearly visible and models nowadays are much more hit-and-miss (my main problem with them is the 'take a CAD of plastic armour mark and just put some protruding ornaments/details on it' thing) than in 'the golden age of 2012-2015' when the team consisted of veteran FW and Warhammer Forge sculptors.

 

But to end on a more positive note, here's yesterday's comment from Anuj:

 

Hang by what is the real question.

[Aias]

 

Hang by what is the real question.

 

 

Hang together, or hang separately?

[MegaVolt87]

Here is how I would turn around 30k if I was in the FW studio. It’s a long, slow expensive vision because 30k is just that damaged and mismanaged as a product line at this point to fix it properly requires effort.

 

Short term- Here we are showing the existing community they are no longer forgotten. We want to retain the existing community and fill the gaps in their collections. Tentative moves are made here to grow, the game gets more wider promotion.

 

Legion praetors (Terminator and power armour)

Legion levi dreads

Legion Dual banner + centurion (terminator and power armour) for command squads + centurion/consuls use.

New starter set (calth/ prospero revamp + mini rulebook)

Annual FAQ/ Legion Approved via war com PDF download implemented

More community engagement, content roadmaps, WIP renders etc.

Weekly HH community spotlight on war com, studio editorial on community HH hobby submissions.

GW store employees/ managers can no longer turn away FW products/ systems players/customers from their stores, customers are given a line/ channel to report to GW non complying stores as they are now FW friendly everywhere. FW sales ordered in store count for store sales targets, store pickup + free postage regardless of order value via a GW store. 

 

Medium term- The game has begun to mature/ stabilize, new players have a value buy in for the game, HH is a featured specialist game on the communities mind like the others are. It has consistent releases and has shaken off the reputation of an unsupported dead system. The core community vets are no longer doomsaying the 30k hobby, the salt is at non critical levels, there is more growing positivity. This has encouraged more newer players to join.

 

Revised red books + main rulebook, not a complete edition change over.

Legion shoulder pad upgrades + helms in plastic

New updated starter box

Backfill of new character sculpts for characters like Maloghurst, Golog etc that have rules already.

New character sculpts + rules for "big names" like Forrix, Lucious, Ahrahim etc

New black books start up again, we see the dark mechanicum introduced. The existing legions are largely fixed at this point, a pivot back to the mechanicum, Imperial army/ milita’s, demons/god marked demons, and Custodes briefly to allow for time for the long term legions plans implementation/ rollout.

 

Long term- sorry guys here is where the company will start to annoy/ hit the wallet, worse value to turn a buck from the customer etc. FW/ GW is a business, "accountomancers" etc. This is the Necromunda model being used from here. You will only need multiple boxes for more squad size, not upgrades as they will have all required included (excluding the mk II tac squad box, which will be like the mk III- IV ones content wise.) This is however the beginning of the 30k renaissance.

 

x10 man mk II tac squad, x5 have running leg pose.

x5 man box of combo breachers + tactical support squad. 

x5 man box of combo Assault squad + despoiler squad, mixed legs/Running legs, separate Mk III-IV boxes.

x5 man combo Legion recon squad + Legion seekers, mixed legs/running legs, separate Mk V- VI boxes.

x5 man Legion heavy support squad, separate mk III- IV boxes.

x1 rapier weapons platform (all options with one modular mount/platform, x2 mk III crew, x2 mk IV crew options)

 

Yep, that’s right all the core infantry is plastic. I hear you saying that’s not everything, where are my mk II assault squad? Right there, its one mk II tac squad box and two x5 man mk III assault squad boxes for the jump packs. Vet squad is made by combo purchasing the other boxes, it doesn’t need a dedicated box, because $$. Doing the infantry this way moves it all to plastic for accessibility, shrinks the product line as small as possible where there are a of common core infantry and is play from the box as is. Mixing the desired armour marks is possible, but it will be at a premium cost, a luxury because everything needed is accounted for in this revamp.

 

Non LoW vehicles move to plastic, some become dual/ multi kit where appropriate

 

Future- 30k and the community are well established and thriving. GW looks to the completion of 30k and the future of FW in its business. 

 

 

New legion unique units/ vehicles, reflecting the latter stages of the HH.

Plastic LoW kits

New edition rules + red books

Black book for seige of Terra

THE EMPEROR in the character series + rules

demon primarchs

Black book(s) during the scouring era, up till the chapter reforms are enacted/ implemented.

 

 

At this point FW can take the reigns of “old 40K” like they are with Warhammer old world, everything from scouring right up till the 13^th black crusade is concluded. Old vets can retire here in peace with their old marines and setting if the primaris are still not accepted/ old marines axed from main 40k.

[Marshal Rohr]

The only issue with that is The Old World was 3 or more years away in November 2019 when it was announced. So unfortunately, November of this year is still one year shy of its release and that was prior to Covid. For Forge World to reboot the Heresy from the ground up they would’ve needed to be working on it this whole time, and we’ve been told they’ve been doing other things. We still don’t even know who took Anuj’s place.

[Cris R]

Here is how I would turn around 30k if I was in the FW studio. It’s a long, slow expensive vision because 30k is just that damaged and mismanaged as a product line at this point to fix it properly requires effort.

 

Short term- Here we are showing the existing community they are no longer forgotten. We want to retain the existing community and fill the gaps in their collections. Tentative moves are made here to grow, the game gets more wider promotion.

 

Legion praetors (Terminator and power armour)

Legion levi dreads

Legion Dual banner + centurion (terminator and power armour) for command squads + centurion/consuls use.

New starter set (calth/ prospero revamp + mini rulebook)

Annual FAQ/ Legion Approved via war com PDF download implemented

More community engagement, content roadmaps, WIP renders etc.

Weekly HH community spotlight on war com, studio editorial on community HH hobby submissions.

GW store employees/ managers can no longer turn away FW products/ systems players/customers from their stores, customers are given a line/ channel to report to GW non complying stores as they are now FW friendly everywhere. FW sales ordered in store count for store sales targets, store pickup + free postage regardless of order value via a GW store. 

 

Medium term- The game has begun to mature/ stabilize, new players have a value buy in for the game, HH is a featured specialist game on the communities mind like the others are. It has consistent releases and has shaken off the reputation of an unsupported dead system. The core community vets are no longer doomsaying the 30k hobby, the salt is at non critical levels, there is more growing positivity. This has encouraged more newer players to join.

 

Revised red books + main rulebook, not a complete edition change over.

Legion shoulder pad upgrades + helms in plastic

New updated starter box

Backfill of new character sculpts for characters like Maloghurst, Golog etc that have rules already.

New character sculpts + rules for "big names" like Forrix, Lucious, Ahrahim etc

New black books start up again, we see the dark mechanicum introduced. The existing legions are largely fixed at this point, a pivot back to the mechanicum, Imperial army/ milita’s, demons/god marked demons, and Custodes briefly to allow for time for the long term legions plans implementation/ rollout.

 

Long term- sorry guys here is where the company will start to annoy/ hit the wallet, worse value to turn a buck from the customer etc. FW/ GW is a business, "accountomancers" etc. This is the Necromunda model being used from here. You will only need multiple boxes for more squad size, not upgrades as they will have all required included (excluding the mk II tac squad box, which will be like the mk III- IV ones content wise.) This is however the beginning of the 30k renaissance.

 

x10 man mk II tac squad, x5 have running leg pose.

x5 man box of combo breachers + tactical support squad. 

x5 man box of combo Assault squad + despoiler squad, mixed legs/Running legs, separate Mk III-IV boxes.

x5 man combo Legion recon squad + Legion seekers, mixed legs/running legs, separate Mk V- VI boxes.

x5 man Legion heavy support squad, separate mk III- IV boxes.

x1 rapier weapons platform (all options with one modular mount/platform, x2 mk III crew, x2 mk IV crew options)

 

Yep, that’s right all the core infantry is plastic. I hear you saying that’s not everything, where are my mk II assault squad? Right there, its one mk II tac squad box and two x5 man mk III assault squad boxes for the jump packs. Vet squad is made by combo purchasing the other boxes, it doesn’t need a dedicated box, because $$. Doing the infantry this way moves it all to plastic for accessibility, shrinks the product line as small as possible where there are a of common core infantry and is play from the box as is. Mixing the desired armour marks is possible, but it will be at a premium cost, a luxury because everything needed is accounted for in this revamp.

 

Non LoW vehicles move to plastic, some become dual/ multi kit where appropriate

 

Future- 30k and the community are well established and thriving. GW looks to the completion of 30k and the future of FW in its business. 

 

 

New legion unique units/ vehicles, reflecting the latter stages of the HH.

Plastic LoW kits

New edition rules + red books

Black book for seige of Terra

THE EMPEROR in the character series + rules

demon primarchs

Black book(s) during the scouring era, up till the chapter reforms are enacted/ implemented.

 

 

At this point FW can take the reigns of “old 40K” like they are with Warhammer old world, everything from scouring right up till the 13^th black crusade is concluded. Old vets can retire here in peace with their old marines and setting if the primaris are still not accepted/ old marines axed from main 40k.

 

I floated the idea for a Legion Approved in this thread from last year: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366725-chapter-approvedgenerals-handbook-for-aod/?hl=legion+approved&do=findComment&comment=5608912. Probably one of the best ways for FW and GW to keep the system fresh and updated on a regular basis if there's a financial incentive for it.

 

The strongest part of MegaVolt87's plan that is the long-term shift to all plastic kits would reinforce the incentives for GW stores to keep supporting 30k after GW and FW implemented the reforms that would prohibit stores from banning FW products/systems and having FW orders count towards their sales targets, creating a virtuous cycle moving forward. It's a good plan, let's hope that FW and GW pick some ideas from it.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Cris R

[MegaVolt87]

 

I floated the idea for a Legion Approved in this thread from last year: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/366725-chapter-approvedgenerals-handbook-for-aod/?hl=legion+approved&do=findComment&comment=5608912. Probably one of the best ways for FW and GW to keep the system fresh and updated on a regular basis if there's a financial incentive for it.

 

The strongest part of MegaVolt87's plan that is the long-term shift to all plastic kits would reinforce the incentives for GW stores to keep supporting 30k after GW and FW implemented the reforms that would prohibit stores from banning FW products/systems and having FW orders count towards their sales targets, creating a virtuous cycle moving forward. It's a good plan, let's hope that FW and GW pick some ideas from it.

 

Spot on. This was part of my reasoning for that particular policy change. Plastic kits are something thats at the finish line, the current state of HH right now, it would be a disaster to begin with plastics, see the resulting sales then have the rest scrapped as is GW's current operational procedure. Thats already happened with the existing HH plastics we have now. I estimate the plastic legion infantry redux and plastic non LoW plastic vehicle redux to easily exceed the total costs of all the releases in my short and medium term content release order.

 

Think of 30k as a grand historical structure, its condemned, its basically almost collapsed, but still is a majestic creation to behold. Its possible to salvage much of the structure to be recycled back into its rebuilding + restoration. The fondation must be fixed from the ground up or it will merely collapse if you just add missing parts without fixing its pre-existing faults. I don't see any other way of saving 30k otherwise outside of my product plan. 

[Taliesin]

SNIP

 

So many great ideas, but I think the reality and the facts really are what many expect them to be, which is very low output and very little support.

I want to be heartened by Anuj's words that great things are coming, and I guess I even kinda believe at least some of it will be coming, but the question of course is when. 

Like everyone else I find it kind of weak to be pointing to Covid and even Brexit as a reason for delays for the Horus Heresy when they've barely released any stuff the last year, and were already going downhill before Covid, and then you compare that to the other GW gaming systems which have been seeing a rash of releases recently and even last year in the middle of Covid. 

 

So there are many great ideas in your post but I think if you were Neil Wylie or one of the other 2/3 people at FW reading your post just now, you'd probably think " awesome ideas, would love to do that, if only we actually had staff and resources to do any of it".

 

Thats 1 thing. The other thing is, if you look at Warhammer Community, they have loads of articles on every system and even minor updates and minor events warrant an article. For the Heresy they have virtually nothing, and the only reason for that is not because Warcom wouldnt love to spend time advertising the Heresy, its because there is nothing to advertise, the output isnt there. They made a bit of an effort with Road to Thramas, and after that total silence, cause there is nothing to report.

 

This is surely also why they didnt do a Weekender for the second year in a row. There is barely any news to report. That is clear from actual output and the lack of any news articles or online events. From the reports from the Open Day it also seems they have very little staff left dedicated to HH, and on top of that, last year they had a vacancy for a new writer for Age of Darkness which we never knew if it was actually fulfilled, and now Anuj left, and thats probably also not filled in yet so it could really be just 1 person doing background lore and testing. Which is insane really.

 

I think its very obvious that they re-allocated their resources and staff to for instance Necromunda and Adeptus Titanicus. If you see the number of supplements for these 2 systems ( both of which I really like btw so nothing against that) its an enormous difference. Necromunda recently had 4 significant Gang War supplement books, well written and beautifully illustrated, and a 5th one just announced, and the Palanite Enforcers books plus 2 others in the span of 8 months. AT has had 5 supplements as well with another one ( Loyalist Legions) coming out in the next few weeks. In comparison, HH Crusade was written in 2019 and finished around the end of that year. I hope book 10 is at least largely ready by now. It seems they shifted staff away from Horus Heresy to do all of that instead of hire extra headcount.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Taliesin

[jaxom]

Thramas taking 10 years was another good indicator of how HH was/is an older style, auteur project compared to the modern, business cycle approach.

[Rejects of Anvilus]

I still have my fingers crossed that they will do something this year to support the heresy. I am hoping the lack of recent news/kits is them creating a nice backlog of stuff to release in one go, perhaps with a updated box set, or even an updated version of the rules (but not a move to 9th edition, but keeping more in line with 7th).

 

Do we have a big release this summer like we normally do (9th was last year and AoS was 2018) because if they wanted to continue saying it is one of their core lines then they could do that and make us happy. Maybe release a plastic vehicle kit or two (Rhino would make sense, as would a Land Raider one, but a Spartan/Typhon/Cerberus would be great) alongside a new box set.

 

This is just my wish listing, but as somebody who has been building Heresy armies since the Tempus Fugitives days (but never sadly attending one of their events) i am still keen on building even more models if they can let me!

[Robbienw]

 

Miniatures:

 

We're currently still awaiting the release of the Word Bearer Praetors, miniatures that were shown in April last year. This has got to be one of the longest previews that we've seen from FW/GW in history.

 

There are still plenty of units currently not represented with miniatures support, which means even if books are currently on the back burner due to lack of resources that these could at least be filled out. FW claimed to want a Legion Leviathan as well as TDA and AA Praetors for each Legion. The fact that very few models have come out for AoD in the past year makes me think that they've frustratingly reallocated most of the sculptors to other games systems which are receiving regular support.

 

The fact that there are (or at least were at the end of 2019/beginning of 2020, because the newest models we've seen are from that time - and I hope against the hope that the situation have improved in the meantime) only two sculptors working regularly on AoD worries me almost as much as Neil Wylie being the last fluff and rules designer left.

The gentlemen in question are Fil Dunn (DA units, Contekar and Tarvitz) and Neil P. Roberts (not the same as the artist who does the novel covers - WB Praetors and before that all BA except for Contemptor, Crimson Paladins and Raldoron and all WS except for Cataphractii Praetor and Contemptor) by the way.

This January I exchanged a couple of messages with Anuj, asking him about the sculptors of some models and from his answers it seems that those two have done everything since around the end of 2018 - with just the exceptions of 'guest appearances' of Chris Drew of AT fame (Sabre - although as Anuj put it 'he only did the Sabre because Neil and I twisted his arm :P' and he 'doesn't think Chris would want to do another resin project'), Simon Egan (The Lion) and another veteran heresy designer, Mr Stuart Williamson (Arquitors - him being present still, at least in some capacity, gives me much hope and if only it wasn't his last project for AoD).

 

It seems obvious to me that Heresy is currently suffering from model and content release scarcity because the forgeworld miniatures designers (the guys who do resin models, separate from the designers who sculpt the plastic SG stuff) and some of the people who do the artwork and stuff for books have been working on Warhammer: The Old World.

 

That's part of the problem, but there is another, much worse thing: AoD has become a system to which they assign junior sculptors in order for them to practise and gain experience - only to be moved to ('more important') Specialist Games later.

Alexandre Dumillard is a good example of that - he started around 2018, working on resin models for AoD, but 'got promoted' quickly and became a plastic designer for SG systems (while still working on some resin but only for Necromunda and Blood Bowl) and I think in 2020 finally moved to the main studio.

With all due respect to Fil and Neil, I think the results of this approach are clearly visible and models nowadays are much more hit-and-miss (my main problem with them is the 'take a CAD of plastic armour mark and just put some protruding ornaments/details on it' thing) than in 'the golden age of 2012-2015' when the team consisted of veteran FW and Warhammer Forge sculptors.

 

 

I think this is a bit unfair to Fil Dunn and Neil Roberts, i don't think you could call them junior sculptors :lol:  I know Fil Dunn for example was doing his own company and freelance 3D modelling since he first left gw!

 

The Dark Angels units that he did are far more than just copying and pasting and adding stuff digitally.  The Companions, Interemptors, and Inner Circle Knights have far more pose variation, armour detailing, updated scaling ans unique parts to say that.  They are fanatastic models, easily as good as the early heresy units.

 

Alexandre Dumilliard is a fanatastic sculptor, its just a shame he left for the main studio.

 

Added to your above talk about sculptors, don't forget that veterans like Will Hayes and Darren Parwood are still at Forgeworld.  Plus you have some specialist games resin designers who have done HH stuff as well and SG stuff.  Like Nicholas Nguyen, and Blake Spence who has returned to GW recently.

[Cadmus Tyro]

 

Miniatures:We're currently still awaiting the release of the Word Bearer Praetors, miniatures that were shown in April last year. This has got to be one of the longest previews that we've seen from FW/GW in history.There are still plenty of units currently not represented with miniatures support, which means even if books are currently on the back burner due to lack of resources that these could at least be filled out. FW claimed to want a Legion Leviathan as well as TDA and AA Praetors for each Legion. The fact that very few models have come out for AoD in the past year makes me think that they've frustratingly reallocated most of the sculptors to other games systems which are receiving regular support.

 The fact that there are (or at least were at the end of 2019/beginning of 2020, because the newest models we've seen are from that time - and I hope against the hope that the situation have improved in the meantime) only two sculptors working regularly on AoD worries me almost as much as Neil Wylie being the last fluff and rules designer left.The gentlemen in question are Fil Dunn (DA units, Contekar and Tarvitz) and Neil P. Roberts (not the same as the artist who does the novel covers - WB Praetors and before that all BA except for Contemptor, Crimson Paladins and Raldoron and all WS except for Cataphractii Praetor and Contemptor) by the way.This January I exchanged a couple of messages with Anuj, asking him about the sculptors of some models and from his answers it seems that those two have done everything since around the end of 2018 - with just the exceptions of 'guest appearances' of Chris Drew of AT fame (Sabre - although as Anuj put it 'he only did the Sabre because Neil and I twisted his arm :P' and he 'doesn't think Chris would want to do another resin project'), Simon Egan (The Lion) and another veteran heresy designer, Mr Stuart Williamson (Arquitors - him being present still, at least in some capacity, gives me much hope and if only it wasn't his last project for AoD). 

It seems obvious to me that Heresy is currently suffering from model and content release scarcity because the forgeworld miniatures designers (the guys who do resin models, separate from the designers who sculpt the plastic SG stuff) and some of the people who do the artwork and stuff for books have been working on Warhammer: The Old World.

 That's part of the problem, but there is another, much worse thing: AoD has become a system to which they assign junior sculptors in order for them to practise and gain experience - only to be moved to ('more important') Specialist Games later.Alexandre Dumillard is a good example of that - he started around 2018, working on resin models for AoD, but 'got promoted' quickly and became a plastic designer for SG systems (while still working on some resin but only for Necromunda and Blood Bowl) and I think in 2020 finally moved to the main studio.With all due respect to Fil and Neil, I think the results of this approach are clearly visible and models nowadays are much more hit-and-miss (my main problem with them is the 'take a CAD of plastic armour mark and just put some protruding ornaments/details on it' thing) than in 'the golden age of 2012-2015' when the team consisted of veteran FW and Warhammer Forge sculptors.But to end on a more positive note, here's yesterday's comment from Anuj: 

Hmmm, interesting. There’s been a rumour circulating our HH gaming group, dropped last month. Never really posted a rumour before, but seeing Anuj’s comment reminded me of it:

 

“This has been leaked from a separate source. ‘He’ has been part of the play test team. Others here may be tuned into aspects of this as we all ‘know’ people. But this is the run down.

 

1.Heresy 2.0 this year

2.Plastic starter set to be released with it or after it.

3. A lot of plastic kits are coming/already been made

4. No more black books

5. Rules still old 7th Ed just cleaned up and someone new things added.

6. Dreads have wounds.

7. Big focus on heresy again to be inline with AoS/40k

 

That’s all that’s been passed.”

 

I can’t verify the source, so take it with a hefty dose of salt. But IMHO it fits with where I see things, I’ll summarise my thoughts in a few points.

 

1. No future releases previewed: either GW are cutting HH, or there is something big coming. Perhaps delayed (as suggested by Anuj) by Covid and Brexit, either because those events have slowed production, or, they are waiting for an opportune moment to announce it.

2. The financial reports list the HH system alongside 40k and AoS in terms of importance. It sure doesn’t feel like that’s the case at the moment, but a big plastic based release would definitely put it further up the priority list.

3. Financial reports suggest that GW has invested a lot of money into their production and distribution capacity. The long awaited factory upgrade, (which I think someone mentioned may have been completed?), perhaps that has had an impact on the planning of a future release?

 

Anyway, I personally believe the rumour, and I hope it’s not just someone wish listing!

 

Cadmus

[Noserenda]

A plastic starter and a rules revamp is a good idea, even if you stay in the 3rd-7th ed framework, 7th was its weakest version, either drop back to some solid previous mechanics or develop some new iteration if you must stay rooted in the past ;) 

AoD is not going to be up with the big boys as a core game though, thats just people repeatedly confusing the Horus Heresy IP as a whole with the one part of it, (Possibly not even the biggest part, though i have absolutely no idea about book sales or anything Black Library tbh) its two wargames, a successful novel series, merch and a number of computer games at this point and liable to keep growing broader. 

Though losing black books would be a shame, im not sure if the current team has the leeway to produce to the standard of the older ones

[Hfran Morkai]

It's an interesting rumour.

 

I don't know how I feel about the rumoured loss of Black Books. It kinda makes sense around the rest of the rumour given they've been put out by FW and if loads of plastics were coming that's GW's territory. I love the black books as a bit of a bookworm, I love the leather (effect?) binding and big tomes. They fit what I want in my library when I get my own place.

 

I just have an inkling if lots of kits were sorted there would have been a leak of some sorts, even if it was potatocam.

 

Here's hoping for a decent year for The Heresy.

[sarabando]

 

Though losing black books would be a shame, im not sure if the current team has the leeway to produce to the standard of the older ones

Black books should move to being fluff and hobby related stuff imo. You should be able to pick up a black book for a faction and know everything about them all their armour designs, colour schemes, markings etc, studio armies, and like back in 4th designers armies and conversions etc. With all the fluff you need to know what they did in the heresy