b1soul

If the Old Ones were a full galactic (or even near galactic) energy-harnessing civilisation (Kardashev scale type-III) and the C'tan-empowered Necrons were strong enough to go head-to-head with them...I don't think there would be that much of a Milky Way left. Imagine a post-US/Soviet full nuclear exchange Earth (let's say this happened in the 60s or 70s) but on a galactic scale. So I decided to scale down the Old Ones to "just" the equivalent of 40 billion stars worth of energy-harnessing. I didn't read the two novels you mentioned, so dayum, looks my head-canon is less of an expansion and more of a contradiction : P

This is a bit of head canon speculation, as I always found the Necron backstory to be good but somewhat inconsistent: Why couldn't the highly advanced Necrontyr fix their life-span problem? This is my attempt to weave some "depth" into the existing framework lore. Perhaps something like this has already been done in a Necron novel?

@calgar101, I think that's right...so 40K SW depart Prospero and get mauled by the AL fleet. Let's say that leaves them with 20K (since Alaxxes was portrayed as a disaster for the post-Prospero SW fleet) and if we assume they later combine with the 20K SW who didn't join the Prospero campaign and all head to Terra, and then on Terra they make an effort to recuit Terrans: yeah, you'd probably have maybe even 60K SW by the start of the SoT. If RG had tried to reconstitute on Terra (and their geneseed being more high-yield/aspirant-friendly than the Canix Helix), you might have more than 20K RG on Terra by the start of the SoT (ignoring the Raptor project as bad Thorpian fanfiction). How big was the RG after Istvaan...like 5K maybe? Regardless, I think they could have pumped out a lot of marines on Terra. Adding two combat-oriented primarchs and many tens of thousands of loyalist marines perhaps would have delayed the fall of the Palace enough for the Vengeance Fleet to arrive first.

@Karhedron, looking this up on Lexicanum, the SW arrived on Prospero with around 70K Astartes and lost around 20K, so roughly a 30% loss rate (not bad considering how the TSons fared, though of course the odds were pretty stacked against them) So the SW left Prospero with roughly 50K...and then got mauled very badly at Alaxxes, but there are no numbers, I think. I did get the strong impression from Wraight's Wolf King novella that the SW actually took greater losses at Alaxxes than that Prospero, as the former was a very effective fleet ambush against a wounded VIth...whereas on Prospero, the SoS and Custodes (and Magnus' shenanigans) really helped the SW surprise and break the Prosperine defence. So I wouldn't be surprised if the SW were significantly fewer than 40K post-Alaxxes, but even an extra 30K marines and primarch would have made a big difference on Terra. Also, while Fenrisians are generally more compatible with SW geneseed, I'm sure they could have leveraged numbers and tech on Terra to pump out a decent number of Terran SW to boost the VIth.

After taking heavy losses on Prospero and then getting semi-crippled at Alaxxes, Russ and the VIth made it back to Terra but chose to run off to confront Horus with the Spear. Corax and the XIXth were shattered at Isstvan [though perhaps not as badly as the Sallies and IH were?], and Corax also made it back to Terra but chose to leave with the Raptor gene-tech and take the fight to Horus. I was never a fan of Russ incapacitating Horus with a magical Spear. That's already bad enough, but then holding back the coup de grace because...feelings?? Doubly stupid imo. Raptor gene-tech was also a major :cuss:. The Heresy would be a really good time for the Emp and Malcador to activate an upgraded Astartes program, never mind why the they would choose to sit on this amazing tech for presumably decades or more?? So let's pretend Russ and Corax and their legions chose to stay on Terra or at least not far from Sol to defend the Imperial core...or they did strike out on their own to inflict damage against certain Traitor elements, but ensured they were able to return to Terra before any full-scale Traitor invasion of Sol. How do you see the Solar War and Siege of Terra going differently?

Right, though I don't think there is a "superstar main character" legion on the loyalist side, I would actually give "most valuable legion" to Dorn and IF, then Khan and WS as close runner-up...with Sang and BA coming in a more distant third runner-up for being on Terra. Obviously the three legions of the Siege were all critical, but the WS were truly unsung heroes even before then. You could have a novel or two on the four year period when the WS at nigh legion-strength were delaying the advances of the EC, DG, IW and even SoH simultaneously, with heavy losses to the WS, of course, but still managing to reach Terra with maybe 50～60% of the legion intact (not bad considering the duration and level of opposition), and preventing the fall of Terra and banishing a Chaos primarch in the process: no two legions alone could hold off the Traitors for that long and having a third was critical.

According to Lexicanum, the Heresy ended around 015.M31 and Fulgrim struck down Guilliman around 121.M31, so that is potentially a century or so of "scouring" Traitors, depending on how writers want to play it. Another note on the Unification Wars, a thousand years just seems too long for the wars of Terran conquest. I would prefer many centuries of planning and preparation, but the actual (major) wars lasting a millennium (what current GW sources suggest) strikes me as rather odd: hence my preference for something on the scale of a century and a half for the Terran campaign and maybe a century (or less) to conquer the other Solar planets and scour the system of hostile Xenos (would have a bit of a Destiny feel to it). I would have there be a Terran-Martian conflict, a long military stalemate, before the Treaty of Mars is signed (with later propaganda pretending the conflict never happened). During this time, many generations of the generally unstable/short-lived Thunder Warriors would come and go. I would clarify that while proto-SM creation was rolled out toward the end of the Terran campaign, their mass-production was only perfected toward the end of the Solar campaign. There was also reluctance to deploy them in large numbers without primarchs around to lead them. The Emp's hand was eventually forced due to TW insurrection brewing and the need for super-soldiers better suited for interstellar campaigns and representing the Imperium to other human worlds.

That's a great point about giving Horus more time to struggle and stew in resentment after the Emp pulls his disappearing act. A few more points off the top of my head... In my view, right before the Siege, the Traitors do have this massive military advantage, but right after the Siege, the pendulum shouldn't swing all the way to the other side: the Loyalists have only prevented the conquest of Terra/Sol and gained a modest military advantage, mainly because the Traitors lost the one leader capable of holding (most of them) together. So it makes sense that the Scouring should still be a brutal protracted struggle to recapture swathes of Traitor-infested territory. I'm not a fan of Horus is gone and everything just collapses for the Traitors. I would also fill in or emphasise some details of the Thunder Warriors, apart from their tendency suddenly to lose mental sanity and/or physical integrity after a short span of service...so we really get an idea of what the long-lived, (relatively) stable Space Marines were replacing. In some cases, more details breathe more life into the setting: say a super-majority of Thunder Warriors would "expire" after a very short span (like less than a decade) but a small minority who won the genetic lottery could actually function for well over a century...or even longer. Relative to SM, all of them were also much more vulnerable to radiation, bio warfare and chemical weapons (in this regard, Thunder Warriors were no tougher than baseline humans). Many were emotionally unstable berserkers, also more prone to psychic corruption than SM. While Terra was not an irradiated, poisoned rock on the level of Baal, there were plenty of hazardous environments, where the Thunder Warriors struggled (also elsewhere in the Sol system). As for the lucky few, long-functioning TW, they were often the more senior officers of the Cataegis, who herded the masses of their less fortunate brethren against the enemy. These luckier individuals were also another reason for the Culling of the TW, rather than letting them exit "naturally". Could also consider a scenario where toward the end of the Sol campaign, the Cataegis were becoming very hard to control and suspicious of their future (rightfully so), including their leaders who could put two and two together. You could have SM and TW working in parallel from the late Terran wars to the end of the Sol campaign, with the Imperium telling the TW leaders that the SM would function as a spec ops formation to "support" the Cataegis. Because the ranks of the TW needed to be constantly replenished (physical failure or mental incapacity) and monitored (violent insanity requiring neutralisation), they needed to be kept on a tight leash, not let loose upon the galaxy via semi-autonomous expeditionary fleets. On the HH being extended to a half century, it allows the HH, especially the lengthy period of attrition, to breathe more as a potential full-fledged setting while still being a punctuated catastrophe relative to how long the Unification Wars and now much longer Great Crusade are (only fifty years to undo what was built over a thousand)

I am not claiming that the current timeline cannot work on a logical or logistical level This is more about how would you plan or rework the timeline if you could, based on your creative perferences, in a hypothetical world where you are head of GW Creative and totally free to do so, even paid to do so. Currently it seems the Unification Wars last for a millennium, the Great Crudade lasts for two centuries, the HH lasts for less than a decade, and the Scouring lasts for more than a century. Here is my first crack... Unification Wars: these are mutiple wars with breaks in between and from start to finish cover 150 years on Terra and another 100 years to retake the rest of the Sol System. Many centuries of pre-planning and prep may have occurred under the Emp and Malcador. Great Crusade: this mighty galactic campaign to absorb millions of world (emphasis plural millions) lasts for 700～800 years. Primarch rediscovery takes a long time. Even the first rediscovery only happens 200 years into the great crusade, setting up the Early GC as a very unique setting in its own right: heroes of that early phase are legend toward the end of the GC. This much lengthier period is still highly accelerated given the sheer number of worlds that were absorbed. Horus Heresy: half a century, with the middle decades being a massive galactic war of attrition. Guilliman's Imperium Secundus experiences the Ruinstorm but even greater time-distortion. What feels like several years to Guilliman is more than four decades outside Ultramar. Scouring: 120 years (similar to the current century plus timeline). The Traitors didn't all attempt to flee straight for the Eye asap. There were many who attempted to set up pocket empires in realspace during a time when the Imperium was greatly weakened and trying to reorganise/rebuild under the surviving loyalist Primarchs and even Valdor: with significant tensions in the wake of the Emperor's physical passing. It took this rather lengthy period to restabilise the Imperium, but by the end of it, the Primarchs had also exited, ushering in an era of further reorganisation and development (or devolution, depending on your pov) under mortal leadership and the Custodes fade even more into the background

Most primarchs will return eventually to make money Can't see Horus returning ...but can see Sanguinius kinda return via some sort of Sanguinor shenanigans with Dante or Mephiston so something like the shard of Magnus merging with Arvida Ferrus as a LotD-like wraith maybe Curze if somehow Mshen didn’t kill him...as the original lore had the pict recording end before showing him being slain but don't think GW will go there. He will probably stay dead like Horus

The Scouring era is full of potential for novels focusing more on politicking and less on battles. Restructuring of the Imperium and related intrigue as the main course with a few Scouring battles as seasoning.

As I recall, ADB has stealthy NL in the NL trilogy and Abnett has stealthy SW in PB. In my view, a wraith-slip ability a la Sharrowkyn makes it somewhat more plausible for a power armoured Astartes to operate stealthily. If Sharrowkyn is annoying for being a special snowflake...frankly, his wraith-slip ability isn't any more silly or overpowered than, say, spaceship-surfer Sevatar's "repressed psyker" ability, which seems to give him some sort of precog/speed bonus, allowing him to duel the setting's top Astartes champion for hours on end, until Sevatar arguably wins by cheating.

Treat 30K from late Unification Wars to Scouring as a sandbox setting It's easier for disinterested people not to buy or read novels in that sandbox...and keep whatever mystery they want in their heads It's harder for interested people to write their own novels

I would've just liked to spend more time with Horus and his legion as his faith is shaken and Chaos (and just personal ego and rebellion) worm its way into him. Less Battle of the Abyss and Nemesis...more character study of Horus and his legion, a longer opening arc for Horus and his legion please. But this probably came down to BL at the outset intending the HH series to be much shorter than what it ballooned into. The Interex are a great concept and they should def be a psychological shake-up for Horus imo, but would've liked the slide into Chaos to have started with Davin and then progress insidiously over the course of maybe an extra book or two (all by Abnett and with Horus as the main character), rather than culminate with Davin and we move on to Isstvan. Def some retro wish-listing on my part, but really do think this would need one authour to slam-dunk this, like Wraight with his Scars.

It seems the primary motivation boiled down to... Horus was resentful that the Emperor kept him in the dark about His Great Work The false Sejanus showed him visions of the Emperor as a tyrant pursuing godhood who would later discard the primarchs like obsolete tools...and as a hypocrite who exploited the innocent, peaceful Warp Gods and hobbled mankind’s understanding of the Warp in His megalomania BUT Horus had enough wits about him to suspect that this was a Chaos mouthpiece, not actually Sejanus or the soul of Sejanus trying to help him out of pure motivations So a good chunk of readers felt Horus’ fall was not that...believable, as portrayed in the book How would you try to strengthen the motivations, or do you think it is fine as it is? Personally, I feel Chaos could have dialed back the overtly manipulative tactics with false Sejanus and his smear campaign against Big E as it is just...a bit too on the nose. It could have started with the Interex (and stretched across multiple novels to set up the star legion and primarch properly)...