'Records Missing'

[Commissar Molotov]

To aid my thinking, I'd like to hear feedback from you guys. I've often lambasted people who have entered 'records missing' 'unknown' and the like when detailing their chapter's founding, gene-seed, or even history. Often I've characterised you as having poor imagination or creativity, of using the 'missing' excuse to cover it up.

 

But are there good reasons for missing information? Can it add to a chapter's character without becoming a clich

[Krazzon Ironfist]

You're correct in that most of the time using the 'unknown' or 'records missing' bit can be as cliche as being lost in the warp for x number of years and suddenly reappearing. It adds nothing to the chapter's story, makes it seem like you can't think of anything meaningful to add, and it's just plain boring and played out.

 

If one were to use 'unknown' or 'records missing' stuff, it is best used for the 13th or 21st founding chapters since it's easy to explain a chapter formed during those periods not having any background information on geneseed or maybe even their early history. You used the Blood Ravens as an example for a chapter that uses the 'records missing' part, but the Blood Ravens' IA was written with them trying to uncover the gaps in their history. It's a key part of the chapter's character, so therefore it's called for to have historical gaps.

 

Using the Blood Ravens as an example for a DIY chapter, maybe the chapter looks for its history by seeking out battlefields near great repositories of knowledge. It almost reminds me of the 13th Black Crusade where the Relictors beat away the enemy just to storm the Imperial base to get the artifacts.

 

Maybe a chapter has been through a great loss like the Crimson Fists where they lost their Fortress Monastery and along with it their librarium and their history. All they would have left is the Dreadnauts to tell the chapter's history and we all know how Dreds lose their hold on reality and memory as they age through the centuries.

 

I guess my point is, you can use the unknown history angle in a chapter's IA, but you still have to use some thought as to why you're using it. Even what's not explained or used can give a chapter character, but you really have to put the same thought into it as you would the known things about the chapter.

[space wolf]

personally, i find it much more original, if someone comes up with an original idea and explains it, rather than coming up with an original idea on why their history is unknown.

[Leichardt]

I would put it close to the epitome of cliche. The epitome of cause is a Radical/Rogue Inquisitor :ph34r:

 

That being said, Ironfist has some good points. The missing records of the Blood Ravens is central to the whole chapter, and does more than make it interesting - its half of the damn plot, and the hook that captivates you and yet makes them uniq.....well, not common.

 

Realistically, I s'pose there should be even more like that though. 10k years is a :P long time (Bjorn would be feeling his age). Added that the sheer scope of the Imperium, the internal political feuds and other things like that its suprising that older chapters like 2nd or 3rd Founding know much of their own history at all. Sure, from which Primarch they descended from is unlikely, but which chapters helped them grow and mature into a fully-fledged chapter, the origanal Chapter-Master even.

[ironloki]

I wouldn't be that heavy handed if someone put "Records missing".

 

First of all this is the Imperium. They have one of the worst filing cabinets in the universe and trying to keep tabs on thousands of chapters over thousands of years is a hard thing to do.

 

Often I've characterised you as having poor imagination or creativity, of using the 'missing' excuse to cover it up.

 

I put a lot of thought into what my geneseed was going to be. My chapter is obsessed with keeping things secret and not allowing anyone to get too close (I even had some inquisitors "vanish" form their homeplanet in one of my stories). As a result they destroyed their records on purpose. This opens up a lot of questions such as why? and what are they hiding? which I like to leave open for speculation. Some of the greatest things about stories is letting your own imagination go wild. If we gave concrete answers to everything we would lose that essense of mystery and excitement.

 

I also didn't want to be linked to any Primarch. Sure not all of those who have, say, Dorns geneseed would revere him but the chapter is aware of their heritage. I wanted my marines to focus on new deities from their homeworld, Serapis (the Emperor) and on Ptolemy (A 'mythological' hero born on the planet").

 

So really I just wanted something blank to work with. I wasn't bothered with the psychical traits geneseed brings with it but more of the psychological effect. Also the only viable Geneseed according to many here is that of the Ultramarines the Imperial Fists. So I went for option 3. I guess in reality it wasn't an important aspect to me.

 

Perhaps it is a bit of a clich

[Tubal]

Then there's the fact that most founding dates are unknown to us. Any sort of precise dating is impossible, so why bother? B)

[the_raptor]

I wouldn't be that heavy handed if someone put "Records missing".

 

First of all this is the Imperium. They have one of the worst filing cabinets in the universe and trying to keep tabs on thousands of chapters over thousands of years is a hard thing to do.)

 

Actually the Imperium has remarkably good record keeping. The Imperium is around twice as old as the oldest known examples of writing. We don't even have very good records going back a thousand years. What are our records going to be like in fifty years when most CD-R's have decayed beyond readability? Paper decays but doesn't generally decay catastrophically like digital data does.

 

For a marine chapter that doesn't venerate its primarch paticularly much (which is what the Imperium wants) it is easy to see how such data would be lost. But I think it is more realistic for their to be confusion ("Was it Dorn or Guillaman?") rather then outright loss. And in general I think their should be a reason for the loss (like the Crimson Fists).

 

Then there's the fact that most founding dates are unknown to us. Any sort of precise dating is impossible, so why bother? B)

 

I don't think precise founding dates matter much. I think it would easily take a century to "create" a battle capable marine chapter. I think the reason that founding dates are unknown is because they don't really mean anything except the date when the High Lords signed a bit of paper authorising the creation of new chapters. The time to recruit, train and outfit each chapter would vary widely, and it would probably be centuries before a chapter was as good as older chapters and did something notable.

[my_name_is_tudor]

Why does an IA article have to be written from the perspective of the chapter in question though? Many of the chapters I have created don't know the exact events that have led them to their current state - but I do, so I write it down.

 

The fact is, if you say 'records missing', that means even you don't know. And then something definately is amiss.

[refuse]

I think it can add alot, or at least lower the intollerence of some people, but it seems that perhaps people already have a concept of what they will accept.

 

Why have "missing" records?

 

1) You want to imply something that others would "flame over". Such as the Blood Ravens, a Chapter with a large number of Librarians/psykers? What Legion would that come from? Saying it out loud would get Against the rules, so it is left a mystery. Why? To allow the reader to fill it in, or to prevent accusations.

 

2) The Imperium wants to create later chapters divorced of their ties to parent chapters/Legions. Why? So the Imperium has a number of "loyal" chapters, who won't side with one of the big 9 if the big 9 are marked for destruction. i.e. you don't have ties to your parents if you don' know who they were.

 

3) Experimental development/investigation by the Imperum to the inherent geneseed predispositions. i.e. what happens if you train IF geneseed to be quick assault. Can they do it as well as White Scar? If you never tell a chapter it can't, or their parent doesn't, can the child chapter know it can't?

 

4) Depending on the PoV the IA is written from, the Chapter may never have been told. messed up? But they are in the dark. Perhaps it doesn't matter? Perhaps it gives them some quest to find their parent chapter.

 

5) Erase stain/superstition. Perhaps a chapter had good geneseed, but ended with a bad result (falling to chaos, dieing in a warp accident) so to remove the stain they don't tel the child chapter.

[Brother Tyler]

Unless I missed it, I haven't seen any references above to the 13th (Dark) Founding, of which there are no records which Chapters were created. This Founding supports those Chapters of which the Imperium (and any of its factions) has little or no information. It's entirely possible that the Dark Founding Chapters have records of certain things such as their founding date, location, etc. They might even know from whose gene-seed they come.

[Aurelius Rex]

This quote from the Chapter Creation stickypost is a good one:

 

Do remember that ambiguity in the right place can be a good thing

Ambiguity, conjecture, conspiracy theories... when done in the right way it can lend an air of mystery to your chapters history. It is a way of inserting a juicy plot-hook into the story to tickle the reader. For instance, people still ask about the missing two legions, there is conjecture about Inquisitorial / Assassin involvement in the Celestial Lions downfall during the Third War for Armageddon and the destruction of the Crimson Fists Fortress-Monastery, and those metal hands that Ferrus Manus got - were they from fighting a C'Tan? Like a magician, don't reveal all your secrets.

 

There is a caveat to this related to theming your Chapter, in that the use of such ambiguity to create mystery thould hint at a wider story related to your wider chapter theme. Taking the examples above, the Manus / C'Tan thing ties in with the Iron Hands Mechrophillia theme, the Assassin / =][= involvement in the Rynn's World Incident is tied into the close links the CF have with the =][=, and with =][= factional infighting.

 

It could be argued that the Blood Ravens use the ambiguity as part of the central theme of their character, the eternally striving for knowledge of their past.

 

So it is fine to use 'unknown geneseed' for a DIY Chapter, as long as it is consistent with the overall theme. If it doesn't, then like anything added to a DIY without regard for the theme then it certainly would run the risk of appearing lazy or lacking imagination.

[Nicili]

I definetly agree that with time some data might be lost, but as i see it, i feel its becoming another 'lost in the warp' trait. I feel that often with chapters that just say "geneseed unknown" are being lazy, although that might not be the case. But its becoming so much overused that it is no longer unique or mysterious. The only time i think that this 'geneseed unknown' factor should be used is in chapters that are more distanced from the imperium, or have been declared exocommunicate.

-Nicili

[Race Bannon]

There is a caveat to this related to theming your Chapter, in that the use of such ambiguity to create mystery thould [sic]hint at a wider story related to your wider chapter theme.

 

But there lies the trick to writing an IA: most of us are not accomplished writers and we are delving into a fictitous world where most of us do not have all the information available to make what we want our Chapters to be realistic in the same setting.

 

At least I am not a good writer, and I do not have it all. But I love the game and the setting and I would like to share my creativity (for what it is).

 

"Missing records" is a massive "way out" ... depending on the point of view of the IA article.

 

If it's an Imperial report then it's entirely possible. But should the writer be faulted for desiring that air of mystery? Out of 1,000 Chapters isn't it possible that 5% ... 10% (?) ... have crappy records?

 

Or maybe ... Marines are not nice, the galaxy is a hellish place. Mystery and sadness is married to dispair everywhere. A Chapter that reveals all is open to scrutiny and destruction from outside sources attempting to pry open it's most treasured secrets.

 

The point of my post on this disscission is that trying to come up with something original, in this setting, is extremely difficult only because it's all been done before (relatively). Sometimes, "records deleted" is a creative comfort.

[Apemantus]

I tend to avoid the whole "records missing." thing, instead I try to be a little vague. When I wrote my Steel Templar's IA I gave rough estimations, no concrete facts but also nothing that said "records missing." I like to leave some things a mystery but I like to do it in a way that doesn't seem a cop out of as if I couldn't be bothered to writhe it down.

[ironloki]

I have to agree with Refuse and Race Bannon

 

The point of my post on this disscission is that trying to come up with something original, in this setting, is extremely difficult only because it's all been done before (relatively). Sometimes, "records deleted" is a creative comfort.

 

1) You want to imply something that others would "flame over". Such as the Blood Ravens, a Chapter with a large number of Librarians/psykers? What Legion would that come from? Saying it out loud would get Against the rules, so it is left a mystery. Why? To allow the reader to fill it in, or to prevent accusations.

 

I think that its good to have some boundaries so people know whats good to work with and what factors may cause problems and as a result you are going to have to work hard. But you have to watch that there is not a clamp down on creating something interesting as Aurelius pointed out.

 

People come out with "oh that's been overused", "oh thats unoriginal" but this game itself is not original and in my views its hard to get something truly distinct. Thats not an excuse to be lazy but it can generally be hard and intimidating for new writers. What I find funny is that the 'Rogue Inquisitor' and 'lost in the warp' story lines have become taboo and are said to be overused(Which they were at one point). So everyone avoids that, we end up with no stories like this but yet its still said to be overused. Quite funny actually. The same seems to be with geneseed. People are told not to have split geneseed, use traitor geneseed etc and we end up with the only real viable options being Imperial Fists or Ultramarines, if your wanting a clean slate. But if you pop in "missing" you can make up what you want without having people rag on you about your geneseed.

 

Its a safety for those who dont want to be hit with the "thats impossible" or "unoriginal" stick :huh:

 

Im not fully advocating people go crazy as I like the chapter creation guidlines as it helps to streamline things and shows you that if you choose a certain path your going to have X factors in your way and your going to have to work double hard to overcome any problems that may create. I used them myself to make sure that my chapter wasn't going to be "unrealistic" but yet I wanted that little essence of freedom.

 

Also how important is geneseed in a chapters history etc? The more generic geneseeds don't have any major effects. Obviously the Blood Angels seed will have adverse effect as would the Raven Guards in terms of appearance but I think that most rarely effects what a chapter is like. It provides a link to the past but im a bit suspect about its effects Vs a chapters influences/experiences.

[Aurelius Rex]

Also how important is geneseed in a chapters history etc? The more generic geneseeds don't have any major effects. Obviously the Blood Angels seed will have adverse effect as would the Raven Guards in terms of appearance but I think that most rarely effects what a chapter is like. It provides a link to the past but im a bit suspect about its effects Vs a chapters influences/experiences.

 

Just this kind of question is being touched on by the Geneseed threads that Molotov and Ferrata have been instrumental in.

 

But with all these good discussion threads of late, there is another that might be if interest... Nature vs. Nurture debate from last year.

 

Feel free to add anything of interest, just mention that I said it wasn't threadomancy just in case.

 

If the theories are outdated it might even be the seed of a new thread... let's see how it goes. :huh:

[Ferrata]

I think it depends on what you do with the missing piece of information. If you leave it as Gene-seed: "Missing Record", then it can be seen as laziness and I would agree, it seems a cop-out. But, it is not always a cop-out. If you use this missing information as a part of your chapter (i.e. Blood Ravens, loki's chapter) then it can actually work out better than just stating it is Ultramarines. I'm not sure if I've made myself clear, so I will shut up and await questions.

 

Ferrata

[Luku]

The way I see it (IMHO) is that if a chapter has 'unknown' as it's geneseed origin, that's fine..There is no written rule that says that a newly created chapter has to be told where it's geneseed came from.

However if the History AND backstory section is left as 'unknown' then that is the creator being lazy.

 

It's all good if people can't decide where the seed originated from, that's fine, perhaps they don't want to cause arguements by choosing the 'wrong' one. But missing both a entire history and backstory is just pure lazy.

 

The Blood Ravens (as the common set example) Do not have an entact 'History' but they have a backstory, and that's what's important....

 

 

 

The Lucius has spoken...run for the hills :ph34r:

[Grimdarkness]

What is the greatest mystery in this hobby to marine players ? .......

 

The missing legions now did GW start out to have twenty but run out of ideas or was it all taken into account to add a air of mystery to the first founding.

 

The examples we use to base are chapter's on are full of holes or statements such as lost to history not known or unknown. From the alpha legion's home world to where the iron hands get there fear of the flesh is unknown or suppressed.

 

I think that record's missing can work if you offer a rumor or speculation on the truth of the matter.

 

Try writing you I.A from the point of view of a inquisitor.

 

 

Grimm

[Luku]

Try writing you I.A from the point of view of a inquisitor.

 

So..."They be evil! Kill them all" ?

 

Flipping Inquisitors.. :ph34r:

[refuse]

The First Founding is an event of mythic proportions, shrouded in 10,000 years of legend, supposition and mystery, and even the details of the Second Founding are obscured by millennia of hearsay. Over the course of the long and bloody history of the Imperium as many as 1,000 Space Marine chapters have been created, perhaps many more. No one person or administrative body has any means of determining the exact number, as the Imperium has suffered periods of great turmoil, during which reliable records have been purged, revised, rescinded, destroyed in cataclysmic destruction or simply lost. In many cases, the only source of information regarding the Foundings, and many other aspects of the history of the Imperium, is to be found in myth and legend, which are taken, even by the most highly placed and informed men in the Imperium, as canon.

[ironloki]

Nice quote Refuse. Consider it stolen for future use.

[OwlandMoonGuy]

After thinking about this, logically speaking; there are only a limited number of plausible scenarios concerning the missing Primarchs/Geneseeds. It really all depends on when they were actually eradicated:

 

Note: I know you

[Ferrata]

Your main problem is why they where stricken from all Imperial Records, not even the Traitor Legions have suffered that fate. I have always favoured the following reason -

 

1) The Primarch's where found along with all the others. They where in the Great Crusade, but something happened before the Heresy (probably before Horus was tainted). The terrible event which happened to them could be one of the following -

 

2) They turned against the Imperium, but where utterly defeated. As the threat was removed, their records where remove to keep everyone happy.

 

3) They loss a major battle by just being poor, bringing shame upon the Imperium. The Imperium decided to wipe all records of the Legion to remove the stain upon the Imperium (like the Romans did)

 

Major Mutations across the Legion, purged and remove from history.

 

Personally, I really like the second one, it makes the Imperium seem even darker and heartless ;)

 

Ferrata

[Schmitt.]

I don't see how making the Primarch unknown does suggest a lack of creativity - there are only a handful of loyalists to choose from to begin with. For some progenitor legions their subsequent foundings would most likely be unknown anyway - the Dark Angels and Salamanders, for instance, suggesting it isn't that uncommon an occurence for records of primogenitor to be lost.

 

A little disclaimer here: my own DIY Chapter is unaware of its founding legion. However, I've worked this into the fluff of the Chapter's beliefs and practices - they revere all primarchs and their teachings equally, for instance. It's a small part of the fluff I can work on more as I explore this part of them more thoroughly. It doesn't have to be limiting or lazy at all.