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I found this instead online:

This is actually a particularly notable comment IMHO because yes, it actually is just about competitive. Because sadly, competitive is just about all that's left. It's very rare now that you go to your flgs, or even hang out with a friend, and everyone's willing to just drop some stuff on a table and start rolling dice. And Crusade is gone, so nobody's interested in setting up a narrative game, let alone a campaign. What GW suggests becomes law, and the only thing left is competition. It's not all bad though A couple of my opponents aren't enjoying the edition much, so we may find an outlet in the more creative ways of gaming. And yeah the TW comment is actually true lol

So far my thoughts are: Pros: - List Building: While not perfect, it's a step up from 10th and I do like the new DP system brining back a bit of the feel of mixed force armies without all the soup nonsense that dominated previous editions which tried to do that. - Variable Missions: While again not perfect (I still prefer asymmetric and narrative missions in general) they are again an improvement over the previous versions. I've been talking about players having different mission requirements being a good thing for a long time and it's nice to see some of that. - Cleave feels much more thematic than Sustained Hits for melee. - Lethal Hits changes: Light weaponry to be non-monsters and vehicles (as seen in Ork codex and assuming it's going to roll out to others over time.) - Terrain as objectives: While a little more fiddley sometimes, it actually feels like your fighting over something / trying to secure a valuable position. I much prefer it to "go stand on that circle out in the open" - The addition of Upgrades to the enhancement system. Cons: - Balancing everything around competitive: We don't wany a little extra narrative flair in our competitive matches, we want actual narrative gameplay. - Terrain Layouts: Everything is still designed mostly around L-shaped ruins. Yeah we "can" make missions without them, but it's still pretty much all you'll see at hobby stores. As mentioned above, where are the rivers and trench networks of old? - They still haven't figured out the sweet spot for Fights First, it's either busted or useless. I'm not saying initiative needs to come back, that certainly had it's own issues, but some more nuanced middle ground would be appreciated. - It felt like 11th edition missed a few rounds of quality checks before it went out the door: (GSC army rules not working at all RAW at launch ect...) They're patching it decently enough after the fact, but it feels very much like a AAA video game mentality. Sell everyone on a buggy mess and fix it over the next six months. These are things that anyone giving a reasonable look at the edition should have seen a mile away. - Some armies being VERY limited in detachment combos: Tau can play all of 8 possible combinations for their total of 7 detachments because of all the restrictions. I know we're probably going to get our codex pretty early on, but still... yikes. Some things I don't think are 11th's fault and/or general responses to other people's thoughts: - LOS / Vehicle Facing: I don't see this as an issue. If we're looking at the game from a realism standpoint, these vehicles aren't moving while doing nothing, stopping and then shooting. Everything is happening at once in theory. While a vehicles rolls between one building and another, it should be shooting during that movement, but it's not something that can work in a game system like this, so they say so long as a tiny bit of the vehicle is showing, that represents it having moved into a position in which it could have attacked. It's not perfect, but it's never broken my immersion. - Social Interaction: This is sadly just the times we live in and not the fault of any game system. Maybe an alternating activation system would keep people more engaged, but even in IGOUGO, you should be spending your opponent's time strategizing and planning for your next turn. Someone not really invested in the game isn't going to be invested no matter the ruleset. - Templates: They may have been thematic but I do not miss the days of my opponent's moving every single one of their freaking models in their 20 man blobs exactly 2" apart to make me hit one less target with my single blast weapon. Blech, no thanks. I'm actually working on a custom generating narrative system to overlay onto 40k games. I'm actually in the final stages and hope to be able to release something to everyone in a month or two. TLDR it's kinda like the Twist system, but turned up to 11 and the knob broken off. It's not meant to be balanced, but to provide thematic and narrative building blocks for all kinds of missions and is built to essentially be nearly infinitely repayable with different outcomes.

I wish I had your skills, so I could finally realise what would the greatest Ultramarines model ever: Marneus Calgar and Robute Guilliman on an Invader ATV. It'sa me, Marnio and my pal Guilluigi!

caricature I hear ya. And give me the same grace asked of me. I like tacticus. I like redemptors. I like a lot of the the scale marines. But Cawl is not representative of an imperium in decline. He reeks of name carving into primarch hearts levels of fanfiction. So think about what they claim Cawl has created. Superior marines, a super primarch entire new lines of vehicles, multiple variants of each. Oh but in secret... and even though he belongs firmly mechanicum he gave it away. Okay. Does that sound like 40k, or a marvel super hero? Thats my gripe. A dozerblade and tracks on a valiant looks great. Listening to Cawl slop not great. So, you're right, but lets get classic ludacrousness back like plaid, or luda in the back of your chevrolet, and not actual ludacrous

Yeah, the Vindicator was inspired by the WW2 german Sturmtiger, which was used exactly for that. The current kit took many details from the real thing, like the ring of holes around the barrel, or the little crane to lift the heavy rocket mortar shells (Which were basically gigantic bolt rounds!)

Having played two games of 11th edition, with the first one being ok and the second one being horrible, I was (again) thinking about what I don't like about modern 40k, specifically 11th edition as the latest iteration, and what all those happily playing modern 40k like about it, and to be honest, I couldn't think of anything. That's why I'd like to hear from the fraters here at the B&C, what do you like / dislike about modern 40k? I don't want people to "defend" why they enjoy playing, I just want to find some perspectives that are different from mine (which has become very negative). For me, the biggest issues are the following ones: - IGOUGO. It's just boring, stratagems are a bad bandaid for it, and it leads to other problems (alpha strikes, extreme sensitivity when it comes to terrain setup, ...). - The terrain layouts. They are just so boring and the opposite of immersive. They don't make any sense, there are ruined buildings but no roads, and it's all mirrored. - The missions. The primaries all boil down to mostly the same, and the secondaries feel like your commander is baby-in-chief. "Go, destroy an enemy tank. Which one? I don't care. Can you move two units as far apart as possible? But don't let them shoot! Take the building in the center! Forget that building in the center, spread your forces all over the battlefield! What?? The enemy commander said that I'd never dare take that one building he is sitting in, and made some chicken noises. YOU WILL TAKE THAT BUILDING, NOW!!1!" - Some really unthematic rules, especially line of sight, and missing vehicle facing. I hate it how a tank can shoot when only the side of its rear is peeking out, and RAW even a gun barrel is a valid target. - Too many rules, but this is probably a "me problem". From faction rules to unit rules, to detachment rules and stratagems, I can't keep them in my head for my army, much less those of my opponents army. That leads to gotchas for me, which feels bad. - Edition churn. I'm starting to mix up rules with the way they were in previous editions...

You can't even get that as a paid download on their website with Warhammer Plus. All their archive content has all the rules removed with all the usual grace of your most heavy handed Imperial Censor, Imperial Armour included. It's bad. I had Warhammer Plus for a year because I really wanted that Karl Kopinski Kasrkin and the only thing I wanted out of that service was incomplete and not available to download.

Sounds like this is just about competitive. That said Total War should solve a lot of these issues and be cheaper to get started.

Looks like they’ve added the Dreadnought to the list too. Bye-bye Boxnaughts. :(

I don't think anyone has any issues with minor tweaks in rules, especially coinciding with a large release and adding new models (that may require new rules/tweaks) to work correctly! It's taking things that people where nominally happy with, that may have just needed some tightening and just chucking it all out. Like in 1.0 did people have issues with extensive(ish) legion traits, black shields, army of dark compliance, militia, Auxilia Tercios etc? Not that I'm aware of, I think Paragon/Divining Blades, Medusa and especially POTM Vindicator Spam and a few other things needed some tightening.. then we got 2.0 dropped on us that pretty much threw everything away that we knew. Then 3 years later when people are ok with 2.0, just needs some tweaks to reactions, lascannons and dreadnoughts.... and... Boom 3.0 hits and throws everything out again. Adds a heap of verbose wording for stuff we didn't need, made some really (really, really, really) questionable choices in regards to list building and a whole host of other things that weren't asked for. I think the pattern to me is the biggest concern! Look 2.0...fool me once... 3.0..fool me twice...

Got to say, @WBRBloom, that Fabulous Bill is a real triumph. It was definitely worth the time it took. Glad to see everyone else's coming along nicely too. Talking of which, I had to take the day off sick today due to a really spectacularly unpleasant cold. Enrolment week's not a good time to be ill if you work in a college, but at the same time you don't do a lot of good spreading your germs around either. Plus I couldn't sleep, so my brain's been mush most of today. Don't need my brain to paint though, so I've made good progress on the next ten traitor guards: Managed to power through to the point where they just need brown highlighting and their eyes, rank markings, runes of devotion, and bases finishing off. Oh, and the unfortunate corpse adorning the platoon icon: I did think about attaching some kind of symbol of Khorne under the torso, but you know I think the general air of ill-intent is going to do the job all on its own. I do also like the contrast between the heavy armour on the lieutenant's front and the lack of it on the back. It's exactly the way a fanatic needs it. All facing the enemy, because you have no intention of running away: And just so there's a sense of completeness, here are the five regular footsloggers: I might just hit the target after all

=][= A mod has said to stop the back and forth with Primaris and Firstborn, which includes personal attacks. I've removed a post that does just that, no more ignoring Mod directive will be tolerated guys =][=

Likes: - Army building. The new detachment system is a welcome change. A given faction is no longer strictly limited to a certain playstyle if it wants to be good for anything but narrative games. Mix & Match is good too. - Primary Missions. Not all sunshine and rainbows, but the variety and the fact not every battle is a mirror matchup is nice. - CLEAVE. Blast for melee. What's not to love? And I don't even run anything that has it Dislikes: - Terrain. The more GW defines terrain rules, and especially layouts, the less fun this game becomes. True line of sight is effectively a thing of the past, we've got flat outlines that apparently block LOS even with a bloody brick sitting on them. And nobody can agree on how titanic & aircraft interact with the big pieces. - Objectives. Linked to terrain. Placement is harder, it's more difficult to set up, every base outline has to be measured at 3 different points because everything's sitting on a lopsided triangle instead of a nice easy circle. Seriously, we could've just set up ruins over/around the circles and the "narrative" link would still be there. My first couple 11th ed games setup took an obscene amount of time because of this new thing. - Melee. I like games where an engagement can take a while. Not everything goes to plan, and everyone gets a chance to fight back. At range or melee, or just in tactical repositioning. This doesn't happen except in the smallest games, & melee armies are a big part. Nowadays they're all super fast, like 2-turns-to-cross-the-table fast, and melee units have insane profiles that pretty much instakill anything they touch. That speed means they always get first strike. T1 a player can move up & hide all his dudes behind the terrain outlines in the middle of the field. If his opponent already moved up, then let the charges begin! If not, wait in complete cover til BR2, then steamroller him and enjoy the benefits of having full access to all the no man's land objectives. Only against another fast melee army will this be difficult. The way of melee has become too easy, and ranged combat is insanely difficult. I feel for tau, no matter how good their shooting is. Almost every army I see this edition plays the fast-melee style, and they do altogether too well. I think what I'm trying to say here is melee has become too powerful, so everyone's forced to play melee... and that's just taking away flavor. - Player Mindset: A tougher one to talk about. I don't think people are showing the imagination that made this hobby so fun when I started. No longer can we build stories from our battles - it's official layouts, force dispositions, card-drawn missions and the Holy WH40K App all the way. Oh and Crusade is no longer supported by G-dubs so nobody around wants that. Yeah, mostly complaints, unfortunately. Here's hoping for some good Narrative material sometime soon! Remember scratch-built terrain anyone? Lol

You're not alone. I was considering getting back into the game for 11th but more and more I think I'm good. But for me personally... >Every single weapon being its own unique profile on the unit that uses it. The universal armoury system made much, much more sense. >The gutting of statlines (WS and BS, Strength, Initiative etc). Needlessly dumbs down the whole game. >The mutilation of vehicle rules in general. No more facings or firing arcs, no more actually behaving like a vehicle with the strengths and weaknesses those would give, just a giant infantry model. >Removing the FOC. Some degree of restriction on unit choices is necessary IMO, and the free-for-all we have at the moment, blech. >Removing templates. They really weren't complicated and were a nice thematic way of resolving area-of-effect weapons. >Removing wargear costs and massively cutting down on options. Just, why. >Making every model a seasonal item with an expiration date before being rendered unplayable. Fundamentally at odds with what a tabletop game should be. >The constant patches and reworks to the game. At this point it's quite clear GW have no idea what the hell they're doing with the rules (or worse are doing them badly on purpose) and expecting the next patch to suddenly make the game work (and not just invalidate the book you've already spent money on) is foolishness. >Everything being able to wound everything. A Land Raider should not be able to be damaged by a lasgun. End of. And that's just from the rules perspective...

Two problems, both minor. 1. Social Interaction has diminished. In my last game, my opponent stared at his phone for 95% of the game, even while he was moving pieces and rolling dice. 2. The Warlord. There is no real use to have one model picked out as your Leader. The rules don't add anything. No extra CP generation when they are living, no extra benefits to keeping him alive. Also, my opponent had an allied Imperial Agent as his Warlord who just sat in a building doing nothing for the entire game, until I sniped him on turn 4.

Lasguns stay at a 5+. Shuriken catapults, flamers, galvanic rifles, shootas, gauss flayers, autoch bolters are all going from 4+ to 5+ as core infantry weapons. Pulse rifles go from a 3+ to a 4+. Overcharged plasma, meltas, ion weapons and a whole slew of anti-marine options go from a 3+ to a 2+. Please stop trivialising the impact it has on the rest of the game as being a side grade at 2pmm with your suggested 10%.

Hey all! Been a long time since I posted anything on the B&C. Recently got back into the hobby and a buddy of mine wanted to dabble in Kill Team, so I figured I'd join him in the fun. I decided to go with Red Corsairs because taxes suck and space pirates are cool Decided to start a progress log here to keep myself motivated to finish them in a timely manner. So far, just a few WIP shots of the first three on the desk. Apologies for the image quality. Just using my phone camera. Butcher - This dude was so much fun to put together. Had a blast kitbashing it. Former Space Wolf, probably will paint him up with a big ol Mark of Khorne on his greave. Plasma Gunner - This guy sucked. Do not recommend sculpting scales. 0/10 experience, the fact that they're not perfectly symmetrical is driving me nuts but they're as good as they're gonna get. Icon Bearer - Gotta have a Fallen in there somewhere. This was my first attempt at sculpting robes. Think they turned out okay. Still gotta sculpt a backpack banner for him. Still have to put together the Heavy Gunner, the Balefire Acolyte, and the Aspiring Champion. Very much open to suggestions as to what chapters/legions they should all come from! Cheers, -Kal

Wow. That's a much better way to spend an inheritance. I was just going to buy a buttload of 40k scale Titans and Knights so I can play Adeptus Titanicus with bigger mechs.

Yup. I can just say this. If one of the multibillonairse snuffs it and I inherit their money, I hereby declare that I will by GW and change some thing. I'd go back to 1ed rules but keep individual movement or that we role to hit for templates but also go back to 6th edition terrain rules where terrain had levels and other actual good ideas in there. And of course put actual picture examples in the rulebooks which really explain things. Like this One picture say more than a thousand words. Never understood why they stopped doing so. But I would also bring back every edition of every game they made as a free download on their webside anyway just to allow people to enjoy these things if that is what they fancy and even from time to time make one of those made to order. Fans could then order it, GW get the money beforehand and then send it to the people. Easy money, customers happy, shareholders happy, vibe way better. I will never understand why they don't do that with the black books. People would buy them. That's just money they refuse to collect.

@Dr_Ruminahui It turns out I need to submit a new photo anyway because in my excitement, I somehow forgot that this guy is supposed to have a cape! Fortunately the Jump Pack was a 3D print which means a used Superglue rather than plastic weld. I was able to carefully prise the jump pack off, attach the cape and glue the jump pack back on without undue damage. So here is Smash Captain Mk2!

Maybe, maybe not. But I like to think GW wants to make its customers happy. Ian salt said it better, but I do think public opinion shifts the needle. And losing models Btw iansalt i had no idea about that vindicator origin. Thanks for sharing. WW2 was wild. Very cool.

Do you really think that GW cares about what a minority of disgruntled vets like us complain about online? Sorry but the idea that our grumbling has somehow translated into improved lore is just absurd.

=][= Blanket bashing of either the first-born or Primaris range, or criticising those who like a particular one is not conducive to constructive and civil discussion =][=

I saw some of the terrain rules (like dangerous terrain!) make a comeback in Horus Heresy for a bit (including the Mechanicum having a unit that could blow up terrain pieces)... But this is what House Rules are for. Playing with the fun stuff you remember. We still play with a bunch of the old missions that were really fun and had bizarre rules (Remember Dusk and Dawn? It's dark outside, unless you got a searchlight, you can't see very far.) I remember one of my favorite missions was a Halloween mission, based around the Mechanicus digging up Necron artifacts. It was a Night Fighting mission. There are 6 40mm objective markers (3 placed by each player). When you got to an objective marker (you would search it automatically at the end of your turn), you rolled a d6. On a 6, you got the artifacts and they attached to your unit (they would drop in place if the unit was destroyed). On 2-5 nothing happened, and on a 1, a Squad of Necron Warriors appeared, controlled by your opponent for 1 turn *and then they would phase out. Whoever had the most artifacts at the end of the ganlme under their control won. It was fun and totally not balanced in any way.

Wasn’t happy with my original Master Lazarus so I stripped him. Think he came out much better this time.

BTW, It is a bit weird, that they just casually sneak revealed the new intercessors and multipart vanguard in the video, instead of doing a proper reveal of the kits. I hope they still do one, and give us a breakdown of the weapons and other bits.

I wanted to ignore this, but I had to come back to reply anyway. Please, just for a moment try to forget that you know the predator for some decades, that it has grown to you and you have fond memories of it. Now look up some real world tanks like the leopard, Abrams or T90. Now look at the predator and tell me that it doesn't look more like a toy or caricature than a serious battletank. Before you pigeonhole me into a "new is always bettah" guy, please know that I also love predators and hate that they go away into legends and I think they have a place aside the gladiator variants. However, in my opinion it perfectly fits 40k when a mad genius with a gigantic hubris invents an massive antigrav tank where you need some yet engines to somehow push it forward. Those tanks (I'm including repulsors and repExes) are not flying sky high through the air rather than crushing the ground beneath them while being shoved forward. Why do they do it? Don't know! Does it bring any advantage over tracks? Also don't know. But it's 40k and sometimes it's ludicrousness that makes it appealing (at least to some of the fans).

Thanks for providing picture of that card - it is quite clear and informative. Perhaps one of the benefits of the limited space provided by the format - there is not much space for excessively flowery prose or vague waffling about all sorts of possible exceptions.

Goodbye my sweet short king, you will always be my favorite! Icons never die!

With the loss of Oath and Hail of Fire the change to the Intercessor bolt profiles feels like a wash or a slight downgrade. Divergent marines weren't enjoying the +1 to wound, so it's a buff for them, but I think any kneejerk reactions about increased marine damage output are unwarranted. Some units, like terminators with storm bolters, we've talked about needing a buff for a long time. They just aren't good. For them, the S5 AP-1 change is welcome and needed. But, again, this all has to be weighed with the loss of Oath in mind. Competitive marine lists are often built around double Oath and the reliability of its rerolls and +1 to wound. That is going away, and the power it offered needs to be compensated for somewhere. Moving up one toughness can be a 16% durability boost, roughly, but it's not always gonna be that. Some stuff wounded on 3's, and will still wound on 3's. In that regard, I think a lot of the wailing and gnashing of teeth I see on forums (not necessarily this one) is also overwrought. A lasgun was wounding on 5+ yesterday, and is wounding on 5+ when this codex comes out. Yes, Terminators will move to a 6+. Were you really bringing lasguns to kill terminators, anyway? And is that 16% decrease in lethality vs one unit type worth getting that worked up over? Especially if the unit sees a 10% point increase? Marines won't become unkillable, they'll go from "you wiped the unit of 5" to "this one guy survived." That can be really important for scoring objectives, but I don't think that's the oppressive power creep that half of the communities on the internet seem to be losing their mind about. GW could still screw this up, but I'm a fan of the idea of the change. I think it should've been done when they re-scaled the upper end of the toughness curve as part of an index edition. But I think it's something that needs to be done to create more room at the bottom end of the scale for more variation between infantry, and it's better done sooner than later. I look forward to the idea of things like T4 Skittles and Sisters, or possibly even T4 aspect warriors. I'm still going to field my Predators, legends or not.

Thanks for your feedback, it's much appreciated. 11-14-22 08-15-24 07-06-25

The concecpt of Officially Legendary Proxies sounds curiously amusing to me ("Look, my proxies are officially more legendary than your proxies - says right here"). And you are not limited to using the Legendary Proxies at stores, clubs and campaigns - you can also use them at home!

Would you mind painting a bunch Dark Angels character models? Start with Sammael on his jetbike.

I'm sorry brothers. The Marine flyers being sent behind the Legends woodshed is my fault. To clear my Marine backlog I finished both an Interceptor and Raven this summer. Now both gone.

Ah yes we at GW have to remove entire "units some of which have been the face of the army like rhino variants and tactical squad because space Marines are too bloated due to all the primaris model but on completely different note here's another generic captain model this time on a bike because marines clearly do not have enough character models" what a joke I'm gonna be really angry if the chaos legions are now gonna lose all their rhino variants as well

Just because a three year cycle exists doesn't mean its the best way to sell models. Don't assume they know the product better than you do, because like I said before, most of them don't even play tabletop wargames. As players we all know its balance changes and a big marketing campaign that actually drives purchases. Cynically speaking, they'd make more money sticking to a single core edition with seasonal balance changes with a monetization strategy around it. Like most of the corporate world today, they just lack the imagination and courage to do something different than maintain course or copy their competitors.

Couple thoughts: - no lightning claws? - I hope phobos get considerably better bolters as well. - RIP suppressors. They never even got a kit

Huh, I remember more than a few people arguing so forthrightly that Firstborn are not being replaced and GW aren't replacing my financially expensive collection that I dedicated my finite time painting. I guess I was completely overreacting.

:cuss: t6 termies, t5 marines, its getting out of hand now Power creep on steroids

TSons in particular are gonna be waiting for their codex for the edition's new Psychic system regardless, same as Grey Knights and I can't see GW pushing us earlier in the edition to make up for that. Also yet again Deathguard coming out on top of the hypothetical worst scenario by Virtue of actually getting unique and thematically appropriate vehicles in the one edition they were a launch faction and thus being least effected if all CSM and Cult factions lose the Predators and Vindicators.

also seems like they could have been more aggressive with the Counts As. Predators as gladiators, Centurions as Aggressors, etc.

This is what I was thinking. Will reserve judgement for clearer pics, but if it does block their firing line that will be a big negative... Edit: I think I'd have put the head on the fairing above the bolters (where the oddly flat Crux is). In fact, that way the whole fairing could have been styled as downswept wings...? Edit edit: Forgive the abominable art skills, but this: The ammo feed, etc could even have been worked into the feathers!

Awful poses on the multi-part vanguard veterans.

Well, hit a standstill on the psyker unfortunately. Tube roller still hasn't shown up in the mail, so I went ahead and got the Fallen's banner finished up. This is also the resculpted robes, which I'm much happier with. Til that tube roller shows up I probably won't have any more updates. Once it's here, next set of pictures should be the squad completely built and ready for primer! Haven't painted a mini in at least six or seven years, so I'll definitely be knocking off some cobwebs. What the hell even is a contrast paint

idk, can you imagine the storm what GW would get if they were a video game company and pulled their 'normal' sort of stuff in that space?

Literally me right now. I'm skipping 3.0 entirely and just making art. At this point I mostly hope hobby jesus rises and gives onto us a community ruleset that enough people being to play to keep the old spirit alive. I'm sure 4.0 is going to swing back after all the 3.0 hate, but I think I'd rather stick to a stable community edition than be on the treadmill.

Hey thanks for being one of the real ones

Got the Aspiring Champ built! Dude took a lot longer than expected, only because I trimmed off all of the arrows and triangles on the armor to keep him in line with the rest of the guys in the squad. I also resculpted the robes on the Fallen. Much happier with the result this time around. Didn't snap a picture of him though, so just take my word for it that they look better than before If anyone is planning on mixing bits from the Raiders and Legionnaire boxes, as a heads up, arms won't be an issue but backpacks and capes will. It takes a bit of trimming on the cloak/sanding down of the back of the torso where the backpack normally sits to get the cape bits to fit, and then the backpack to fit on top of the cape. I've got two days to finish up the Balefire Acolyte and that's gonna be a tall order for what I have planned. I've got a Master of Possession on my desk and I had the bright idea to convert him into a witch doctor-esque traitor Mortifactor Librarian. It's gonna require a lot of trimming, pinning, and sculpting. I've got til Friday night to get him finished before I hop on a train to Tokyo Saturday morning, so wish me luck Also, still need suggestions for the heavy gunner's origins!