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...What? The Vindicator has been a mainstay of the Astartes vehicle fleet for most of 40K's lifespan. It certainly has more business in the Codex than the various Aspect Marines or the vile excuses for grav-tanks we're stuck with now.

FTFY:

Help help! I'm being suppressed!

I'm sorry brothers. The Marine flyers being sent behind the Legends woodshed is my fault. To clear my Marine backlog I finished both an Interceptor and Raven this summer. Now both gone.

I wanted to ignore this, but I had to come back to reply anyway. Please, just for a moment try to forget that you know the predator for some decades, that it has grown to you and you have fond memories of it. Now look up some real world tanks like the leopard, Abrams or T90. Now look at the predator and tell me that it doesn't look more like a toy or caricature than a serious battletank. Before you pigeonhole me into a "new is always bettah" guy, please know that I also love predators and hate that they go away into legends and I think they have a place aside the gladiator variants. However, in my opinion it perfectly fits 40k when a mad genius with a gigantic hubris invents an massive antigrav tank where you need some yet engines to somehow push it forward. Those tanks (I'm including repulsors and repExes) are not flying sky high through the air rather than crushing the ground beneath them while being shoved forward. Why do they do it? Don't know! Does it bring any advantage over tracks? Also don't know. But it's 40k and sometimes it's ludicrousness that makes it appealing (at least to some of the fans).

=][= Blanket bashing of either the first-born or Primaris range, or criticising those who like a particular one is not conducive to constructive and civil discussion =][=

I see. I have great taste in aesthetics, I even have an art degree. So I can tell you, that the primaris are obviously and objectively better looking than the malformed low detail chimps that preceded them. Marine range has literally never looked better than it does today. I am glad we got this settled!

Here's the original from White Dwarf 118 1989.

With the loss of Oath and Hail of Fire the change to the Intercessor bolt profiles feels like a wash or a slight downgrade. Divergent marines weren't enjoying the +1 to wound, so it's a buff for them, but I think any kneejerk reactions about increased marine damage output are unwarranted. Some units, like terminators with storm bolters, we've talked about needing a buff for a long time. They just aren't good. For them, the S5 AP-1 change is welcome and needed. But, again, this all has to be weighed with the loss of Oath in mind. Competitive marine lists are often built around double Oath and the reliability of its rerolls and +1 to wound. That is going away, and the power it offered needs to be compensated for somewhere. Moving up one toughness can be a 16% durability boost, roughly, but it's not always gonna be that. Some stuff wounded on 3's, and will still wound on 3's. In that regard, I think a lot of the wailing and gnashing of teeth I see on forums (not necessarily this one) is also overwrought. A lasgun was wounding on 5+ yesterday, and is wounding on 5+ when this codex comes out. Yes, Terminators will move to a 6+. Were you really bringing lasguns to kill terminators, anyway? And is that 16% decrease in lethality vs one unit type worth getting that worked up over? Especially if the unit sees a 10% point increase? Marines won't become unkillable, they'll go from "you wiped the unit of 5" to "this one guy survived." That can be really important for scoring objectives, but I don't think that's the oppressive power creep that half of the communities on the internet seem to be losing their mind about. GW could still screw this up, but I'm a fan of the idea of the change. I think it should've been done when they re-scaled the upper end of the toughness curve as part of an index edition. But I think it's something that needs to be done to create more room at the bottom end of the scale for more variation between infantry, and it's better done sooner than later. I look forward to the idea of things like T4 Skittles and Sisters, or possibly even T4 aspect warriors. I'm still going to field my Predators, legends or not.

I think it's one of those situations where the online discourse surrounding it gave an extremely disproportionate voice to the anti-Primaris side versus how many people either liked them or didn't give enough of a damn to care. Hell, how many people loudly insisting GW will never get any money from them again if they squat Firstborn are now sat on 3000pts+ of Primaris? Everybody saw the writing on the wall and the desire to play with a 'legal' (non-Legends) Marine army has outweighed the number of people sticking to their guns by a huge margin. In my anecdotal experience, once 9th edition hit and people had three years to understand where this was heading, I almost never saw Firstborn models unless it was a vehicle somebody had from prior to 8th edition or it was a tournament game where a Firstborn unit being good outweighed the foreknowledge it was going to be binned off sooner rather than later (and even that was rare). There's no hard data, but GW like their money more than anything else, and if Primaris were a failure of sales or marketing (especially in an era of 'memberberries) we'd have seen the new Intercessors instead be a true Tactical Squad rather than 8th edition Intercessors just with a couple of helmets, pauldrons and a backbanner tossed in. I don't have any skin in the 40k Marine game though, so this is just an observation of mine rather than falling down on one side or the other (I do dislike their lore though).

GW brought out replacement units for most of these kits in the initial primaris launch wave, but unlike other Factions having a new kit release to replace an old one, Space Marines kept the old kits around for another NINE YEARS and have only removed them now when the Intercessors released in that initial wave are getting their own refresh because they're almost a decade old. You've had plenty of time to see this coming and expect it, but seemingly everyone assumed GW would keep these old and honestly barely used kits around in perpetuity for some reason. We have confirmation they're not going away with the LSM codex at least. Hopefully we don't lose them entirely with codexes because the "replacement" Daemon Engine for the tanks has done a very good job ruining the balance for all 5 factions that can take it, getting point hikes, nerfs and actively killing Detachment options in those 5 factions while still being the best option some actually have (and the only option in EC's case, who are back to a state of effectively not having any armour at all).

Booyah! Checkmate, hater!

The Predator wasn't designed to be a main battle tank, but an infantry support vehicle. The current design from 3rd edition was inspired on the british army's FV432 APC variants. So whatever its other design flaws, it looks pretty serious if you ask me.

Whilst some Chapters very much do specialise in lightning assaults, it's probably inaccurate to say it is the only form of engagement employed by the Space Marines as a whole. I might be misremembering, but I seem to remember when the mixed metal and plastic Vindicator kit was introduced way back in WD 231, it was described more as an assault tank, used for dealing with hard points and urban assaults where extreme short-ranged firepower was required.

Don't think of it as a 'siege tank' but instead a breaching tool. Can't easily drop pod into some fortifications, so send a door kicker down to smash a hole then drop marines to surge through the breach.

Someone has to do it:

Looks like my bike Captain is back on the road. Saddle up, lock and load!

Nah, much like 2nd edition Heresy, as soon as we get 4th/Scouring, 3rd edition will immediately go from The Great Satan into Sovlfvl Flawed Masterpiece.

Preview of what's in the Journal for Loyalists. Adjutorum Sodality is a retinue which includes a Not!Nuncio-Vox, the 40k Blade Champion and a standard bearer who messes with objective scores. The new Solar Auxilia Cohort Doctrine allows them to be taken as allies in a Custodes force and implies there's a way to boost Line at the risk of becoming Stunned There's also a Detachment which lets Custodes run Militia. The colour scheme for the Tzeentch Daemons is pretty sick too:

Please don't rehash the old stuff good/bad vs new stuff good/bad cycle again.

Good old, GW. So thoughtful, so generous. Here's a little shanty I was moved to write: Herp, derp, herpy-durr; My 3D Printer go brr, brr, brr; You can call me a pirate; But I'll call you a cur; My 3D printer go brr, brrr, brrrrr..! Yarr!

Would Heavy Intercessors break the game at 90 points instead of 100? This sort of durability and damage already exists and no one takes it, at least not at a competitive level. Now, overcharged plasma. Let's fire a squad of hellblasters into a squad of intercessors at T4 and T5, yeah? Keep it simple, no OoM, just overcharged plasma into MEQ. 10 attacks into T4, hitting on 3s, 6.66 hits, wounding on 2+, 5.328 wounds, AP3 so 6+ save, 4.262 wounds through armor. 2 damage each, 4 dead marines. 10 attacks into T5, hitting on 3s, 6.66 hits, wounding on 3+, 4.396 wounds, AP3 so 6+ save, 3.516 wounds through armor. 2 damage each, 3-4 dead marines. As I said, you're talking about 1 extra guy surviving. Against terminators, the math actually does not change with their toughness increases when it comes to overcharged plasma. They're going to get more expensive and die just the same - 3+ to wound either way, and forced onto their invul. You brought up Votann weapons - consider the EtaCarn Plasma Gun on Hearthguard, it is literally no worse into any of the new marine profiles. A plasma gun that requires no overcharge, still has AP-3 and damage 2. Now it just kills more points of marine with every shot. A 10% price increase across the board for marines would be 200 points less army on the table. It may not work out that way - who knows how whether the price and stat increases will be limited to infantry or spread across the entire range - but 10% across 2000 points means you're going to have to give something up, and it won't be little. 1 extra marine survives each volley of hellblaster fire, in exchange for you having to give up something like a Redemptor, a Repex, or a Vindicator (may their casino cannons rest in peace). It is a change, and many armies may need to re-evaluate. Maybe the incidental damage they relied on to kill marines isn't reliable anymore, and they need to tech in something else. Some may simply be left holding the bag till they get a codex, and that sucks - it's why this would've been better done as part of an index edition. But I just don't buy the idea that this is such an earthbreaking, sky-shattering change that it will suddenly make every non-marine army into second-class have-nots. The meta will shift, people will find answers, and some of those answers will just be the ones they were already using.

"Old good new bad"-posting will continue until the new stuff stops being bad.

The Black Books mostly released during 7th edition, so that's a Monkey's Paw if ever I saw one. It was also the height of the 'okay we're running out of niches for Marines. What about a Space Marine INSIDE a Space Marine?' releases, prior to the Primaris reset. (Selfishly I'd like to have seen Forge World take a swing at Votann though).

I’ve liked Primaris since their introduction but the Devastator squad is one of the greatest in all of 40k. I had a box of RTB01 and a single blister of the metal heavy weapons team, and have loved them ever since. Really sad to see it go without a true replacement.

@WBRBloom You really made that old Fabius shine! Excited to see your Ahriman I myself have finally completed my vow

Well, well, well... and just when I decided to kick off the year with a squad of Tactical Marines, a Razorback, and a Predator. Now with this latest development, I'm... uh, I'm actually just going to continue along with no change to any of my plans. That reminds me, my next unit is just sitting there on the desk like 70% finished. Staring at me, with judgment in their yet-to-be-painted eyes.

Would you mind painting a bunch Dark Angels character models? Start with Sammael on his jetbike.

So you just want people to be miserable? Can we put an end to the endless doom hammer? It's been 9 years, and it's played out at this point. If by paying the price you mean "made record sales and record profits" then I guess they have...

Careful. That's how it starts. The Suppressors have become the suppressed.

This is how I feel about bog infantry Marines since 8th edition. They feel barely better than Guardsmen, worse depending the specifics. I feel like this is a much needed correction for bog standard marines.

The pros and cons of the changes since 8th edition have been discussed to death. But I'd say that the important thing is that until now it was still possible to play the game with old marines. Maybe they were not good enough for tournaments, but the rules gave players a way to do it in friendly games. Which if you ask me, should be the actual goal for most people. But you could still choose your own way to play. Not anymore. With Rhinos variants, Tacticals and Devastators gone without getting updated versions like other old units, the people who like their old armies are screwed without options. They are forced to quit, play old editions or homebrew. And that's a legitimate reason to be upset as a customer.

People with taste?

caricature I hear ya. And give me the same grace asked of me. I like tacticus. I like redemptors. I like a lot of the the scale marines. But Cawl is not representative of an imperium in decline. He reeks of name carving into primarch hearts levels of fanfiction. So think about what they claim Cawl has created. Superior marines, a super primarch entire new lines of vehicles, multiple variants of each. Oh but in secret... and even though he belongs firmly mechanicum he gave it away. Okay. Does that sound like 40k, or a marvel super hero? Thats my gripe. A dozerblade and tracks on a valiant looks great. Listening to Cawl slop not great. So, you're right, but lets get classic ludacrousness back like plaid, or luda in the back of your chevrolet, and not actual ludacrous

Yeah, the Vindicator was inspired by the WW2 german Sturmtiger, which was used exactly for that. The current kit took many details from the real thing, like the ring of holes around the barrel, or the little crane to lift the heavy rocket mortar shells (Which were basically gigantic bolt rounds!)

Exactly this. Vindicator and Stormtalon are the two units from my active marine army that will be affected by this, and the vindicator will be sorely missed. It just has an iconic look and has been a MVP in many games.

Your daily reminder GW nearly went under shortly after 8th launched and it was Contrast that saved them. At least, according to Chris Peach.

Legendary proxies is a fate worse than Legends. It's just the deletion of that unit within the rules of the game.

Thanks for your feedback, it's much appreciated. 11-14-22 08-15-24 07-06-25

Indeed, but even like that, I can't help feeling like a fistful of nails is driven into my firstborns' coffins every time a SM codex is released... Yet all of that was fully predictible. So what now? As a next step, should I go rogue and pretend these old models of mine follow Astral claws and CSM rules? Or should I complete the transition of these miniatures toward HH?... An opened question I will probably not solve as I still can keep on playing with former Ed rule sets... But HH is a more likely option.

How many primarchs can you paint on short notice?

Yes. And it was obvious that they did. (Granted, the models did stay for nine years, so I guess it could be argued that they were in a sense truthful at the moment.) But seeing the new improved design it was crystal clear that this was what the marines would look like going forward an there was no going back. It was only the question how fast the replacement would be, not whether it was happening. I shelved my old lovingly converted and painted marine army there and then, and started a new primaris force and haven't looked back. I'm on fence on the rules,* the models overall are better than ever of course, even though I didn't like the new bike captain. * Though regardless of the actual quality of the rules, the pace of change is certainly exhausting. So if one has a like-minded group, I can certainly see the appeal of just playing one's preferred old edition and stop worrying about the churn.

I'm a big fan of the idea of marine armies getting smaller and more elite, but 11th is already feeling like GW are going to inevitably go way too far with stat/codex creep. Guess time will tell. But it's good to see they've learned from the farce that was CSM's nearly 20 month wait for their second wound back in 9th.

Bloat caused by...the pre-existing units, or the dozens of similar-but-totally-different units introduced at a later date? Devastators: one datasheet, one SKU Desolators, Eradicators: two datasheets, two SKUs - presumably more coming once they make more or how about: Space Marine Commander box, with tons of bits to make various characters: one box, one SKU 612 Primaris Captains and Lieutenant models: 8,304 boxes and SKUs I agree with the general principle, bloat (both datasheet and SKU) is pretty bad. The irony is that the Primaris was is inarguably worse, from anything other than a forcing sales perspective. The only way it works out better is by literally forcing people to buy entirely separate boxes for different things, thereby arbitrarily pushing people into spending more (ignoring the fact that people will happily buy multiple boxes of things for mixing and matching).

I really like the color scheme on those daemons. Rules look interesting. In terms of content, a War in the Webway/Siege of Terra journal could have covered the same ground and explored less well-known parts of the Heresy.

I still remember when Space Marines went from T3 to T4 (UK WD129). Good old times...

Luckily primaris tanks are there to buy instead of rhino chasis visuals. And they have the iconic marine stubbers! And boring predators only have like 4 guns, these have 5! And what mainline battle tank doesnt need like ... 4 JET ENGINES? Oh, and in the decaying imperium of the 41st millennium what heavy battle tank shouldnt.... fly? My dads tank can totally beat up your dads tank. In a few years maybe theyll retire these and we'll get tanks that can fly into the sun and fight on lava land or somethin.

I would argue that a Siege Tank like the Vindicator has no place in a Marine Chapter, and belongs more in a Marine Legion. A Siege Tank camping outside the walls doesn't play to the shock and awe, lightning assault that the Chapters are built around, although I don't feel so strongly about it that I see it as a real negative. Now that the codex is cleaned up, I would like to see some exciting new units in the future. More gravis variants, more phobos variants etc, and of course - more chapter specific units across the board to make each chapter more distinctive. Give the White Scars jet bikes like the one used by their character, for example.

If they aren't being shown, they def didn't add anything really worth while. Insanely weird to just make the same kit with nothing worth buying it for. It looks like it even has less than the armageddon monopose intercessors somehow

Well, this isn't unexpected. But it still feels rubbish. I'm curious what the reasoning behind the split between legendary proxies and legends was. If my melta Devastators are count-as Desolators, why can't my Predator be a Gladiator?