ghost_9pm

Great post ltvyper. A lot of good info there. I think I have an interesting idea on how to run the Plasma Pistol Vanguard in my list in conjunction with Lias. I would use them as a counter-Deep Strike unit. One problem I ran into was units that could deep strike close to my fire base and harass my Preds, or if I got the first turn, units that could deep strike in and respond to my alpha strikers. Because Lias' ability allows you to choose the turn your units arrive, if I run up against someone with some nasty unit that can Deep Strike in, I can save my PP Vanguard to drop in after my opponent and respond to his Deep Strikers. If they get close enough to my lines an Auspex Scan should weaken the opposing unit, allowing the Vans and my fire base to eliminate the threat the next turn. In all likelihood the enemy would be able to take out a single bubble wrap unit but that's it. Afterwards, the Vanguard are then free to move about the board and take any other targets of opportunity or simply speed bump any other approaching units. Since they are close to my back lines this should solve the one and done problem as well. I imagine they should be able to get some more work done in the following turns, even if it's just taking an objective here and there (a less glorious but equally important task). I think this strategy would help mitigate the impact of going second. On turns where I go first they can just Alpha Strike along with the rest of the army and try to pick off those straggler units as mentioned earlier. This tactic wouldn't work nearly as well with Company Veterans because they don't have enough speed to redeploy after their initial task is completed. Hey look at that, you guys got me excited about a unit that I had previously written off. lol. I'll probably be raiding my bits box tonight to see if I can scrounge up any spare Plasma Pistols.

Thanks Gull for your contribution.You two smbarne. You both made some excellent points. I see two main configurations that could be viable: Version 1 - Cheap harassment unit similar to Reivers. The benefit to having the Vanguard do this versus the Reivers is that they have the added mobility to objective hop if you need to. But if you play one of the missions that have relatively few objectives you might end up camping on one and their jump packs are wasted. With 2 chainswords they could have one more attack than the Reivers as well. The Reivers have the benefit of an extra wound and the special grenades. I can see an argument for either unit. 10 wounds in cover for the Reivers at -1 is pretty hard to dislodge from my experience. But since this unit probably won't be targeted much I'm thinking that the Vanguard with their added mobility probably takes the win here. I'm looking forward to testing this out. Gull I see your point on the Storm Shields. If you equip a whole squad of 10 you're looking at 50 points that would probably be better used elsewhere in the army. However if you have 5-10 extra points to spare in your army to fill up a 2000 point list, it makes sense to make them a little more durable, rather than giving some Captain a Plasma Pistol who probably won't use it. Version 2 - Plasma Assassins. Drop in and deliver 10 Plasma Pistol shots, preferably with a cheap Captain nearby to overcharge and re-roll 1's. I think you mentioned that this would be around 250 points. Around 350 with the Captain. I'm not sure if I'm 100% sold on this one yet. I haven't had much luck deep striking anything up close. I'm also curious as to whether there might be a cheaper option out there that achieves the same mission. Since we have access to Lias perhaps the Company Veterans with Plasma Guns or Sternguard with Combi-Plasma. Or maybe even taking some Hellblasters that have the option to use SFtS if we're lucky and get the first turn. I'll definitely give this one a shot but I feel like they might run into the same problem I ran into with my Sternguard, which is they become a one and done unit. I think this loadout would do well on missions that use entire board halves for DZ's such as Dawn of War or Hammer and Anvil, because the enemy is more likely to spread out their forces which allows us to pick off a straggler unit. In missions that use table quarters for DZ's, the enemy will be concentrated in a small area, making this far more difficult to accomplish. There's a GT coming up in my area soon so I'll be sure to test it out. Edit: I posted this before seeing ltvypers comments and it looks like we came to the same conclusion on which loadouts are viable. haha But in response to your comments ltvyper, yes I had some points to fill and IIRC I took 5 Vans with 2 TH's, 4 Storm Shields, and 2 Plasma Pistols. I suppose this could be because I didn't have a specific mission for them, they were basically list filler to run with Lias. I'll keep an open mind on them. I apologize for speaking in absolutes in my original post. I was probably still a little salty from that loss and took it out on them. lol And yes I can see taking a plain assault marine unit instead as a harassment unit. I think it would be about 10 points cheaper. I think the extra attack is probably worth the points though. Since the target would mostly be basic troops or squishy support units I think it would help quite a bit with damage. If points allow maybe even a single guy with dual-LC's to deal with numbers. How have you found the plasma squad? Gull mentioned that he's done pretty well with them.

You need a unique chapter trait. Maybe something like "Power from Trash" or maybe "Power from Fish" that buffs your units as the game goes on. But in return, your leadership goes down every turn to represent them fighting amongst each other or wandering off. Haha

ltvyper - Thanks for the feedback man. Not sure what type of "agenda" you think I would have. I think that might be a bit of an exaggeration if there were any here. haha. I'm just sharing my experiences and they've disappointed me frequently enough when it mattered for it to be noticeable. I'll go through what they charged into. Keep in mind the meta I play in is a lot of large, tough units so I didn't expect them to wipe out the opposing unit by any means but I expected them to at least tie up the enemy for a turn or two to buy space for my ranged units. Also of note is that I did not Deep Strike them in any of my games. Game 1 - Thunderwolf Cavalry. I missed 2 out of 5 of my TH hits due to charging out of range of Lias. The single Storm Shield in the unit blocked the remaining 3 wounds. Thunderwolves struck back and between the riders and wolves killed all of my Vanguard. I believe my chainsword vans took 2 wounds off a TW but didn't kill it so it was able to strike back. Game 2 - Some Large Knight Variant - I apologize that I don't know the name of it. It has T9 and some cheesy guns that should probably only be in 30k or Apocalypse. This time it may have been due to bad luck because if I recall correctly (It's been a couple weeks now), they hit with 3 out of 5 but failed to wound due to needing 5's. Knight struck back, killed my two Storm shields then backed out of combat next turn and killed the rest by shooting. Game 3 - Razorback - This was what tipped me over the edge on these guys. My AT shooting was finished and I needed to peel 4 more wounds off of a Razorback to stop my opponent from moving to contest an objective. They assaulted and missed 2 out of 3 hits (The other hammer was dead at this point in the game). I did do 3 damage to it but the Razor was still able to move to contest the next turn. Since they were down to 3 men the assault cannons and rapid fire bolters killed them off the next turn. Could it have been bad luck or bad matchups that explains all 3 games? Possibly. And it wouldn't have bothered me nearly as much if I wasn't spending 150 points on them. I had chalked it up to that in my practice games where they didn't perform that well either, which is why I still took them. Everything in my list needs a role or a niche so that I can get those good matchups you mentioned. In my opinion it seems that with the wargear available to them, they don't do well at AT, and they are decent at horde control but there are better options in our codex for that role. Their mobility is certainly a strength but I can get units that are even more mobile and are superior at horde control to boot. I just don't see a place for them in a competitive list. If you can share how you've used them with success I'm all ears because I just spent $50 on these models Again I'm not trying to misinform anyone. But it seems that every other topic on this forum is regarding how to best equip Vanguard Veterans. I think the reason for that is people have had the same experience I had and think "Well I must have equipped them wrong. Maybe if I bring different wargear they will perform better next time". I think the answer is that they're just not that good in a competitive list. BTW did your math include the Berzerkers hitting twice? With a certain stratagem I believe they can actually fight 3 times. Nasty stuff. Edit: One thing that came to mind is that perhaps they're not an "Elite" unit per se, and should be used more along the lines of Reivers. Keep them cheap and use them as a backline harassment unit and fast objective campers instead of loading them up with wargear. Have you used them in this way ltvyper?

Thanks for the responses everyone. Good info. Instead of mucking up my post with a bunch of quotes I'll just respond all at once. smbarne thank you for adding those additional units. I haven't tested many of those myself but I think that your reasoning is good with those. I'm looking forward to testing the flyers out. I like the maneuverability for linebreaker and those annoying Maelstrom objectives that require you to have something within 12" of your opponents board edge (For ITC). Sorry about the Dreadnought confusion. I somehow got it in my head that they could use Strike From the Shadows and Lias' ability. I'll go back and edit the post in a second. That would change my loadout on the Relic Leviathan. I think I would remove the Grav Flux due to the range of 18" and replace it with another Storm Cannon Array. 20 S7 AP -2 shots per turn seems decent. It's still a huge points sink though that would probably be better spent on more infantry. I tend to agree with SkimaskMohawk that the double chainsword is good but not great. The Aggressors have the advantage of being able to prioritize targets for elimination. Imagine a line of conscripts with some plasma vets behind them. A 200-300 point dual-LC or dual-CS vanguard squad is forced to charge into the conscripts, leaving the vets free to rapid fire plasma into them next turn with no benefit from the Chapter Trait. Yes you will probably wipe out 120 points worth of conscripts easily but what you've done is traded your rook for their pawn. It's just not worth it to me. The aggressors on the other hand, can sit at 18" away (getting the benefit of the Chapter Trait) and pop the plasma veterans with their gauntlets and probably still have shooting left over to take out some of the conscripts as well. With shooting, I am in control of where I place my shots, rather than my opponent dictating what I can and cannot assault. Also when I shoot they don't get hit by overwatch or attacked back (aside from Ynnari shenanigans lol). Not to mention I can't fail a charge roll with shooting. The very worst case scenario here would be that the vans fail to get into combat with those conscripts and I'm left hanging out in the open. That's too much of a risk for me personally, even with the cheap dual-CS loadout. Defl0 I'll give Thunder Hammers another shot in some practice rounds. Maybe it's just my luck but it seems even with Lias hanging around I get a lot of misses with them. I think even if the math is on their side they still run into other problems. The main one being is that they are melee only. If you're close enough to get into melee then you're also close enough to take small arms fire from your opponent. A Lascannon or ML on the other hand, can sit a distance and be immune from those weapons (at least until the enemy closes in). I also know that a lot of people point to the flat 3 damage as being a plus, but I don't mind the D6 damage so much because it also has the benefit of the higher upside. I know it's basically gambling but at least there's a chance to get that clutch roll of a 6 and knock out that knight. It's always an easy command point decision to re-roll the 1 damage result when you need 3-4 to kill something.

Hello all, First time posting in the Raven Guard forum. I just wanted to give you my thoughts/feedback on how well my Raven Guard army has performed in the tournaments I've played in since the 8th edition launch. If anyone wants me to post the lists I've used I'll do that later. Keep in mind that since this is a competitive-focused post, I run them mostly as a gunline to benefit from the -1 to hit Chapter Trait, which is extremely powerful. Again I fully realize that this may not be fluffy or suit your play style. I'm just letting you know what has worked for me in hopes that you might find something useful here. Overall in tournament play my Raven Guard are 5-1. I think they are an extremely competitive faction when used properly. The reason for the one loss was a mistake I made and not due to the army. A tactical error and lack of rules knowledge on my part (I'm new to 8th. Last played in 5th ed) cost me the game and the tournament. However, all the rest of my opponents were tabled or nearly tabled usually by the third turn. The trouble I ran into is that some of the anti-horde options that I brought were basically useless in many of my games since the meta in my area (Arizona, US) seems to be big expensive models (RBG, Magnus, Knights galore) so that caused some of my units to artificially under perform. Without further ado here are my thoughts on the units that I've tested in battle thus far: Predators: I will never leave home without 3 of these until GW realizes that the Kill Shot Stratagem is under costed. Adding 1 to your wound rolls and dealing extra damage for 1CP is insane. You wound Land Raiders and Knights on a 2+. Compare that to the Sternguard Stratagem (I forget the name) which is also 1 CP but only adds 1 to wound and you've got some serious value here. I run 4 Lascannons since I noticed that the Predator Autocannon doesn't pierce armor well enough to do any significant damage. My Predators were the MVP's in almost every game and frequently destroyed 1000+ points. They currently fly under the radar for now which is nice, since their main weakness is if one gets destroyed, the Stratagem can no longer be used. Always position them hidden behind LOS blocking terrain or completely out of range of your opponents weapons, even if you have the first turn. It's better to hit on 4+ for one turn and keep them safe rather than risk losing one or more due to a lucky seize roll by your opponent. If you're parked near a Captain or CM and Lieutenant, you'll still get a good alpha strike with them, even on a 4+. Try not to target things with Storm Shields if you can avoid it. They'll tank all of your LC shots. Aggressors: Another MVP unit when the situation permits. Combine the Boltstorm Gauntlets with Strike From the Shadows and you will get accusations of cheese since units coming in from SFtS do not count as moving, allowing them to fire twice. The average number of shots for a squad of 3 with 2 rounds of shooting is 54 S4 shots. Apart from expensive Centurions it's hard to beat that volume of fire. Consider placing a Captain or Shrike nearby for re-rolls. I was running 9 of them total with Shrike in my first tournament averaging 162 shots and then realized that they would usually destroy everything they were within 18" of before all of their shooting is even done. I then dropped them down to a unit of 6 for the second tournament and I find that this usually leaves just enough enemy models left to get wiped out in the morale phase. This unit is also excellent for taking down units with Storm Shields such as Terminators or Thunderwolf Cavalry. The sheer volume of fire will guarantee that some of them will go down. I have yet to try the Flame version and probably never will due to the 8" range. Not to mention if I have re-rolls on 6 dice, I'm likely to get 5 or so hits with the bolter version anyway, meaning that the only other benefit of the flamers is overwatch. Not enough of an edge for me to consider bringing them. I almost forgot to mention how surprisingly mobile these guys are, because of their advance and shoot rule. On average you will get 3 inches advance, meaning you have a 26" threat range, bringing you back up to standard Boltgun range. Pretty good. The Power Fists are also an added bonus. I don't count on them to do my tank killing but they're always there if I need them. I'll never argue with extra versatility. Also as another bonus, the models are pretty cool. They remind me of Terran Firebats. Lias Issodon: After my first tournament, I realized that I got lucky by getting the first turn in 2 out of 3 games, allowing SFtS to be used to maximum effect. However, relying on first turn was unrealistic, and I want to be able to get the alpha strike off even when going second. My only gripe regarding 8th edition is that many games are often decided simply by who goes first. Luckily Lias allows you to mitigate this by giving you 3 free drop pods (basically) for 3 units of vanilla marines (tacs, vans, stern, devs, etc). This also consolidates 4 drops into 1, increasing your chances of going first. Using this ability properly requires some finesse though, as dropping straight into my opponents face with a 10 man unit of Sternguard, 5 Vanguard, Lias, and 5 MM Devs was pretty ineffectual most games. I'm now of the opinion that if you get the second turn and your opponent (assuming that they're also not a gunline) starts marching toward you, you drop in some Lascannon Devs, Heavy Bolter Devs, Lias, and maybe some Sternguard to create a second gunline in another location on the table, preferably on the opposite end on some objectives. They are then placed into an awkward decision of either splitting their forces, which is a bad decision because they could get killed piecemeal and have to break up their aura bubbles, or focusing on one, which is also a bad decision. Because even if they kill one fire base they won't have enough time to march across the board to the other side before the game ends. Meanwhile, your entire army can fire at theirs at a distance. I'll test this theory and report back. In terms of his combat effectiveness, he's alright. His lack of an invuln save makes him really squishy, so if he's your Warlord I would actually recommend keeping him back to avoid gifting your opponent Slay the Warlord. I think his shooting is superb though. With his advance rule and his weapon being assault, he's good for removing basic troops from objectives on the other side of the board. However, I'm going to start deep striking him next to my Preds for the rerolls and keep him safe behind 33 T7 wounds. Since his weapon has 30" range he will still likely get some kills here and there. To put it this way, his statline won't win you the battle but his rules will win you the war. Captains/Lieutenants/Shrike: I lumped Shrike in here because at S4, even with re-rolls he's going to get smashed in CC by a dedicated CC unit. If he's your warlord you have to take the RG Warlord Trait which is good, not great. This is another reason I swapped him out for Lias. It fits better with my strategy since I was basically using him only for rerolls. The increase of 45 points to Lias was a no brainer for me considering I can now take Storm of Fire as my Warlord Trait and get to beta strike my opponent. As far as Captains and Lieutenants go, I would say keep them cheap and don't give them any wargear apart from Jump Packs if you need them and maybe a Storm Shield if you want to use them as a speed bump to your juicier targets. If you need to fill that last 10 points that's fine but I find that even Plasma Pistols are usually a waste on them. They're there for their auras and that's what they're good at. Leave it at that. Devastators: Devs are fantastic with our chapter trait. It can take a lot of firepower to get them off of an objective with the -1 to hit penalty. With my revised Lias strategy I plan on taking a unit of 4 Lascannons and another unit of 4 Heavy Bolters (only 110 points with cherub and the HB Stratagem is pseudo-smite). Always deploy at full distance if possible to maximize the shooting you get out of them. Similar to the Predator, I think it's better to keep them safe and out of LOS (or in Deep Strike) during deployment and suffer the -1 to hit penalty when they shoot rather than keep them in the open. The Sergeant can mitigate some of the movement penalty with his ability. The one thing I'm not certain about with this tactic is if it's better to use the Cherub on the first turn (to maximize alpha strike potential) or the second turn (to maximize likelihood of hitting with the additional shots). I'm leaning towards always using it on the first turn because every enemy model removed from the board is one less that is available to kill you in the subsequent turns. One loadout that is getting blacklisted by me is Deep Striking Multi-Meltas. Low volume of fire combined with extreme proximity to the enemy is a bad combination. If my Lascannon Devs whiff a turn, they'll probably have another chance next turn to redeem themselves. Not so with MM's. They're priority target number one for your enemy and they will not benefit from the -1 to Hit CT since they are so close. They will die. SFtS would help, since they would avoid the hit penalty. But what if you go second? What do you do with them? Probably place them in your back lines so that they don't die immediately. But then they can't shoot due to their range and you might as well have just taken Lascannons. There's no reason to take this loadout period IMO. Sternguard: I would rate them as a B+ unit overall. Although I think they'll be a lot better if I used them properly. As I mentioned ran them with Lias and used Deep Strike and benefited from Storm of Fire, Re-rolls, and their Stratagem, yet I was still unimpressed. They didn't kill anything of serious value most games. On paper that looks really good, right? 20 shots wounding most things on 3's or 2's, vehicles on 4's with re-rolls to hit at AP -2/-3? Sign me up. BUT, because they were right in the enemy lines they always got killed themselves the very next turn. I just take the Special Issue Bolters so they are a reasonable 180 points, but that still feels like a lot to me for a one and done unit. I think the superior strategy would be to place them in some cover 29" away from an enemy unit and take your 10 shots the turn you drop in. Perhaps targeting a cheap unit squatting on an objective (Taking Maelstrom points away from your opponent). Yes, you might not kill them that first turn, but it's unlikely the enemy will have anything that can kill the Sternguard in cover with -1 to hit. They will likely continue to fire and be a nuisance for the next 3+ turns, killing light units and claiming objectives, meaning you got 40-50 shots for your points rather than 20. If you do decide to drop in Rapid Fire range, drop in behind or to the side of the enemy if possible, meaning your opponent will either have to stop advancing to fire at you or divert some troops away from your main line to deal with them, buying more time for your long range units to do their thing. Vanguard: I'm not a fan. I think they're absolute garbage no matter what wargear you take. They cannot beat any dedicated close combat specialists one on one. There are better, cheaper options for killing hordes (Aggressors and Assault Cannon Razorbacks, Flyers). Thunder Hammers are expensive and too unreliable for taking down vehicles or monsters. The only thing they're good at is being a speed bump with cheap storm shields. But then what a smart opponent does it target them with Lasguns or Boltguns and your 5 man 200 point unit just died to a 30 point guardsman squad. Apart from cool looking models with Lightning Claws for fluff reasons, I can't find a use for them. In all 3 games I played with them they died without killing a single model, even while getting the charge off. I would much rather prefer a cheap unit of Reivers. Bringing me to... Reivers: I like these guys a lot. Relatively cheap at 18 points and what you get can annoy your opponent to no end. 3 attacks, 2 wounds, special grenades that remove overwatch, tactical flexibility with deep strike and also reducing your deployment drops if they do so. In one game used them to SFtS and pick up the relic and run away with it on turn 1 and they held on to it for the rest of the game. In another I used them to attack back field units that were camping objectives. They killed a unit of Devastators on the first turn and then tied up another in combat for the rest of the game. In the final game they just camped on an objective and earned me 3 Maelstrom points. They didn't kill anything but they still helped me win. If you've got some points left in your list and don't know what else to take give them a shot. As a plus they're very stealthy and fit with our Chapter fluff-wise. Dreadnoughts: I really want to like Dreads due to the fact that they benefit from our Chapter Trait. I just personally haven't had any success with them. I find that even T8 Ironclads fall pretty easily to a few Lascannon shots. If you want to use them as a distraction carnifex, you could do worse, but they're just not very killy to me. The low number of attacks means they get bogged down easily by cheap units, and they tend to lose in combat to expensive units, particularly dedicated CC units. The shooty variant sitting in the DZ wouldn't be terrible, but I think Devs would fill this role better due to the increased firepower and because it's easier for them to gain a cover save. I would consider running a cheap Dread with TL Las and Dread CCW for versatility. It can pop transports from a distance and if anything gets close it might be able to do some damage, or at least buy time for your army to escape. One Dread variant that I really want to try is the Relic Leviathan. The Invul save, T8, and high number of wounds make it pretty tanky. I think I would run it with either the Grav-Flux Bombard and the Storm Cannon array or two of the Storm Cannon Arrays for 20 S7 AP -2 shots is pretty good. Range and price (dollars and points) are an issue but it would definitely draw focus away from the rest of the army for at least a few turns. That's all I have for now, but I'm sure I'll have more in the future. Sorry for the long post. I probably should have broke it up a bit more. I hope I at least got you thinking about your list in a new way. Any suggestions you have for me or something I might have overlooked would be appreciated.

Wow reading everyones lists makes me feel better. I'm not the only one out there with years of painting ahead of me. lol

Wow those look great! Excellent work. The white looks very clean and the dark recesses make it look striking as well. I bet you'll get some painting acknowledgement for sure if you go to any tournaments next season. You definitely inspired me to get moving on my guys. I just received my BA Assault Terminators and Death Co Strike force in the mail so I had to put painting on the back burner for a bit to do some assembly, but I think I'll complete a single model outright this week so I can post it here and again when the squad is done.

I wish I had found your tutorial about 2 weeks ago. My first attempts I took the advice of some youtube painters and worked the paint up to white starting from a tan color (Army Painter Tan spray) and used brown wash in the recesses and it looked terrible. The white turned out chunky from all the layers and the brown didn't look crisp in the detail. It just looked like someone with a shaky hand tried to paint the recesses. And even when I repaint them those test models will look bad. Now I use the method above and it looks pretty good I think. I'm using Nuln Oil in the recesses because it flows very well and the black is much more striking than the brown was. I hope to post pics soon too when I'm done with my Sanguinary Guard. I might steal your Nights Watch idea some day since it fits with my theme as well. Now that the hobby and comp scores are returning to tournaments in the US I would like to make a display board with them surrounded by Bloodletters painted up to look like White Walkers.

Sounds cool. I'm working on my "Snow Angels" which will be all white with hand made snow/ruin bases. The Chaplain Commander of course will be Lord Jon Snow. haha If you can get that link I'd like to check them out. Oh and if you don't have a good method to paint white yet (I learned this the hard way from weeks of trial and error) use Ulthuan Grey from the Citadel Air line and then do edge highlights with Skull White or whatever its called these days. It actually looks 10 times better than flat white and the citadel air line is very thin so it paints well, you just have to do a few coats. Cheers!