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So instead of mudding up the 'strategy' thread we have going, I thought I'd plop the results here of that game. Here is my list from the strategy thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/368954-white-scars-vs-death-guard-tactics/?p=5665531 The short version is we had to stop early. As mentioned my opponent was new to Death Guard, and typically plays Orks and although I knew the new codex was complicated... it is really complicated. There is so much to remember, and I think all the character rules, combined with army wide rules, combined with strats makes for a deep learning curve on the codex. That said, the basic abilities of the Death Guard are extremely potent and my opponent's list was not even close to optimized. His list was super basic: 3 squads of larger Plaguemarines with some being assault oriented, some being shooty oriented. 3 Squads of Poxwalkers. Only 3 characters, Lord of Contagion (had a grenade that does 3 flat damage I think? and a Scythe.) Plaguecaster, and that Blightlord? with plague spewer thing? -3 AP, flat 2 damage? D6 shots. 2 PBC's, 3 Foetid drones, 1 Helbrute, 3 of the Reaper bodyguard Cataphractii. This is what Mid game looked like: As you can see I am blocked out. We played a 'quarters' mission and Scars went second. Here's the breakdown: - Knowing I'm going second, I decide running straight into him is a bad idea. He actually as a mildly shooty Death Guard army by Death Guard standards, but still aside from the Foetid Spitters, PBC's and Helbrute, the rest was mostly pea shooters. With that in mind, I decided to take my better bolters, ATV's, and Eradicators (put in Encirclement) and try to be cagey. - The ATV's attracted the fire of the PBC's early of course, but I kept them out of LoS, but that strat was annoying do a little 'mortal wound' bomb in an area where I hid most my forces... you really can't avoid it. - I let him take mid table. No choice really if I wanted to stay cagey, use my speed advantage, and shoot him up a bit. He had a LOT of T5 bodies. and Drones coming in hot. - Somehow scoring wise, I keep him to 10 points a turn, and I take 10 points a turn. This was the good news, the bad news is aside from my Multi Melta shooting, I simply felt absolutely useless. - My Chaplain on a bike was fairly useless this game. A bit weird, but I felt my Litany choices were bad ( +1 to wound in CC, + to charge/advances) I was simply in NO rush to charge this behemoth slab of rotten meat. - My Marines were getting widdled and once my ATV's took down one PBC, my Eradicators tried to take the other one out. One of his PBC's ended up charging my ATV's but I overwatched and took 5 damage off of it, then took it down next turn. This cleared his heavy shots, and the Helbrute also went down just on the noze with the reduced damage it took from another ATV. - I still used my Apothecary to bring back an Outrider (I think it's just FAQd that the ATV's can be healed, but not revived? correct?) But otherwise the Outriders really were horrible. Classic bikes with mixed weaponry and especially a Sarge with something for extra strength seems mandatory. - Once he claimed the center, I was running out of time. Bring them Down was giving me a couple of points a turn, but other than that it was a trickle of points. With 5 objectives it was harder for him to get more than me so tying that was huge, but this was more a side effect of the table and deployment more than the ability of my army vs his. - We ended in T4. I tried to push back but his Lord was horribly effective. The Catapharctii were absolute trash in this game. All they did was kill a couple of poxwalkers. The Stormbolters do nothing to Plague marines, and the mixed squad of Chainfists and claws was completely obliterated in one turn by the Lord of Contagion. (flat damage 3 scythe) making me Toughness 3 meaning he's wound on 2's. The contagion would be slowed by the Outriders, but his bomb combined with Flails and scythes took them down easily. - My Bladeguard acted as a body guard, and finally I had to try to take on the cataphractii body guard... it was rough. I buffed my squad as well as I could, but even after charging my swords only got 1 turn of doing 3 Damage and I managed to kill 2 of them so I was sure that was awesome enough but his last guy wiped my squad (in his turn). End Game: I have to confess we didn't add points at the very end. The game point wise was super close, but I wholeheartedly admit I was almost tabled. I have never felt this ineffective with White Scars in close combat against any other army. Outriders were a very poor choice. S4 hits on a T5 army is a bad feeling. - Assault Intercessors: oddly enough it's their Pistols that do work! Again the swords do nothing. The Charge bonus is muted by the inherent rules of the DG so it's like you don't have a super doctrine until you are talking about hammers... which mine just never hit. In my case it made more sense for me to attack foetid drones since I was wounding everything on '5's' for the game. - Bolters, boltrifles, assault bolters... if you can't reach a Poxwalker, forget it. At one point my opponent was even shocked how little damage my army did. Two outrider squads charged 2 Plague marine squads, to kill 2 plague marines in each squad. I had to rethink that... I mean that's... 19 attacks? On the charge.... wounding on 5's, doing one damage (even in T3), causing 4 unsaved wounds. That's crazy. I charged to assault squads with a hammer each, and that would be 8 marines total, only to kill 3 marines (6 unsaved wounds). It was after my 'big' assault turn my opponent actually said he felt uncomfortable playing the DG. lol He felt bad because he'd never seen so many White Scars bounce. After this game I would say I'm negative on a few units going forward, and definitely removing some. - Cataphractii definitely out. - Outriders - negative on - these have a role, but I still think traditional bikes are better - Assault Marines - I truly love these, but this is a good example of needing more firepower. I'm too troop heavy overall so something has to go. Good stuff: - Multimelta's: I suspected these would carry me into 9th. The ATV's may not be as good as just MM attack bikes, however they are good enough if you're like me and don't want to paint old Attack Bikers. - Eradicators: In lack of vehicles and lack of Heavy support overall, these are big with Encirlement. Potential: - I have no White Scars Redemptors, but they would be good (I use them a lot with my UM) - New Speeders? Something fast with more heavy shots. - Gladiators are too expensive, but the one that has about 30 shots of S6 at -1 is actually big in this match up. - Grav weaponry. Also good in this match up.