Tsuro's Truescale marines

[Tsuro]

Thanks for the advice yuri, your pictures are extremely helpful.

Thats an interesting way of widening the powerpack, and one I hadn't considered. I'm still going to take a shot at sticking gubbins on the side, because it'll be far simpler, but if the effect isn't any good I'll give this a shot.

 

You're mostly right about the proportions on the newer model; I've gone back over it and it turns out its been sitting too high on the left knee. Its always going to be taller than the prototype though, because that one is modeled in a sort of crouching walk.

 

I liked the original arms a lot, but I've come to realise the difficulties that having such massive forearms will present when holding weapons etc across the chest, so I've really got to taper to the wrist. I will be bulking it out some though.

 

 

Tsuro

[wiplash]

i like these the first ones yo did the waists were too skinny but these are good, too be honest im surprised the head fits so well with the size of the model, but its almost perfect, you have clearly spent a lot of time and effort on these, congratulations

[Yuri]

Thanks for the advice yuri, your pictures are extremely helpful.

Thats an interesting way of widening the powerpack, and one I hadn't considered. I'm still going to take a shot at sticking gubbins on the side, because it'll be far simpler, but if the effect isn't any good I'll give this a shot.

 

You're mostly right about the proportions on the newer model; I've gone back over it and it turns out its been sitting too high on the left knee. Its always going to be taller than the prototype though, because that one is modeled in a sort of crouching walk.

 

I liked the original arms a lot, but I've come to realise the difficulties that having such massive forearms will present when holding weapons etc across the chest, so I've really got to taper to the wrist. I will be bulking it out some though.

I'm glad they were of use to you. Pictorial presentation has the odd knack of driving one's point home with an unnerving precision. ;)

 

Hmm. It is true as you say, that the model will be taller if it's not "modeled in a sot of crouching walk", but I would like to point out that the added amount of lenght is miniscule at this scale. Personally, I wouldn't take it into account as it's such an unnoticeable difference.

 

As for the arms, I really like the first design. If you feel you absolutely must tap

er them, I urge you to try to retain the same massive look. Skinny arms just doesn't suit the overall massiveness of the armour.

 

2 cents. Ching ching. :teehee: 

[Tsuro]

More progress -

Heres the backpack in what I hoping is the final design. I've added some more of whatever those things on the side are, to widen the middle and reinforce the classic silhouette. I've also painted it grey, as all the separate pieces didn't stand out too well and I couldn't decide if it worked or not. Its also looking a bit rough and ready at the moment, so I'm going to try a different method for those side things on the next packs.

The majority of the progress has been on the rest of the squad (as it would be). Four of them are now upright and had the upper thigh armour extended. I'm still tweaking other sections of the armour here and there (and some of it isn't as smooth as I'd like) but heres what they look like:

As always critique and advice is very much appreciated.

[Desert Eagle]

I'm always so impressed by you guys who go that extra mile to completly rebuild your marines. These looks very nice, big and chunky. What really springs to mind is that painting of that crimson fist captain ( you know, the one with a huge powerfist). Keep up the good work, i think this looks very promising!

[NemFX]

You definately have another watcher, but could you go nuts and paint one up already? :devil:

[Tsuro]

bah,

I wasn't as nearly productive, not nearly as productive over easter as I wanted to be.

Here is the current state of play:

Most of them are not pinned, and I forgot to straighten them prior to photography, so many are leaning in a manner that will be eventually removed.

I had a go at making another, chunkier arm (its on our left)-

I don't think its working though, so I'm going to get to work on the other limbs now, with the slimmer profile.

I thought I'd also include a shot of the prototype with all the pieces attached.

I think the shoulders are too square. I've had an idea for another enlarging technique though; its going to be fiddly as anything to achieve but I'm hopeful that the results will be worth it.

Desert Eagle - yea, I've started using that image as a 'style guide' of sorts. It was the final convincer that the arm didn't need to be thicker, determined by the almost scientific process of holding the model up to my face so it looked the same size as the picture and then comparing the two.

NemFX - I hear you. Its starting to frustrate me just how long this is taking, but as much as I want them done I want them done right. Things should snowball when the arms are finished though. (then I get to work on the detailing and cosmetic stuff - all the fun bits)

Tsuro

[CM Dante]

Very nice, certainly alot more effort that I went to with mine. The only thing I would suggest is that there seems to be an awful lot of rigid, straight leg walking in the squad members. While these may actually be poses people would end up in for a fraction of a second while walking, they look unconvincing and awkward rather than the natural strut your first test marine has.

[synapse]

i love the bulkiness of these guys - theyre so cool, really good work. now finish one! :P

[chaoswarmaster abbadon]

these guys look great. I am all for correcting the size issuse, BUT I think the plastic heads are oversized and therefore make these guys to big.

Sorry I hate to say that.

I would suggest a Jes Goodwin head or better yet a Forgeworld head. FW seem a better grasp on scale and just more talent.

[Tsuro]

CM Dante - Yeah, I was shooting for a sort of slow-and-purposeful aimlessness but I didn't want them all to have the same pose. That sort of materialised as "this leg forward, that leg back, this leg bent, that leg straight." Hopefully when the arms are attached there will be more of a sense of motion.

Synapse - This is taking an age, isn't it? Part of the problem is I'm still working out the kinks in the process, and part of the problem is I'm really bad with Green stuff. Its common for me to spend nearly forty-five minutes on something tiny like a leg plate until I'm happy with it. I actually had one of the more complicated pieces set when I was still trying to get the finish right (and why does it never set as well as it looks when its 'wet'?)

Still, practice makes perfect and other clichés...

chaoswarmaster abbadon - I think I know what you mean, but the height was calculated from working out how tall I wanted the marines to be next to the guardsmen models. Things like the head, hands and feet can make the models look disproportioned though (or is 'heroic' the word we use?)

There hasn't been a natural stage to post new images since the last update - its all been minor tweaking here and there, but I figure enough minor bits equals something major. Right? I'm getting better results with Green stuff now (I've redone most of the upper legs), which I thought was indicative of my improving skill. I've just done the back of the torsos though and the results weren't as encouraging, so maybe it was down to layering green stuff on top of green stuff.

Picture (I hope this is large enough)

The one with the collar will also be holding his weapon across him, but I've decided hes going to be a lefty (or as much as an ambidextrous marine can be) for variety, so I need to convert his right hand into one of the cupping ones (and scrounge a left hand pistol grip).

Still working on the new shoulder pad. I've tried to scale it relative to the new height (that is, the pad will be as big to these marines as the unmodified ones are to the non-scaled marines) but I'm thinking its going to be a little large. Its impossible to decide until its on the model and I haven't got a 'hollow' one yet, so I'll have to wait and see.

Tsuro

edit: picture has linked to the full size version, which is obviously how it works. Probably why I've never had any issues with it before.

[CM Dante]

I hate to say it but the bodies look way too big for everything else now to my eye, the heads and hands look tiny on them. Taking the bodies on their own I would say the waists look too thick on a few of them. Its a shame because its clear you've put so much work into them and it is a great quality of job. Perhaps you could just sculpt or plasticard together your own heads and hands for them too? Would seem logical since you've made everything else yourself thus far.

 

Cheers,

 

Dante

[Tsuro]

I've not had a lot of time recently to work on these marines, but I have managed to get two shoulder pads done.

The pads have been scaled relative to the height of the model, so they are just as tall/wide to the scale marines as the regular ones are to the regular models. Of course since I haven't scaled the models in the same way its not guaranteed that they'll look right.

In fact, when I first did them I was convinced they were too big. Now I've been staring at them for the last couple of days I'm not so sure... If I'd had the time I'd have made some smaller ones to compare, but I thought I'd get opinions now anyway since these are the 'scientifically' scaled shoulder pads.

What do you think?

CM Dante - You raise a number of valid points. I felt I had to widen the waist/belt because I didn't want the hips to stick out too much. This could have been avoided if I'd modeled the legs closer together (I imagine that once you're in power armour there wouldn't be much space left between your legs). It sounds ridiculous but I just *couldn't* get them right on these models (although I have been working on some of the more egregious offenders)

The head and the hands were a tough call to make. Part of the point of this project was to produce models that looked like they came from the fluff, not just in how tall they were but also that they were very obviously wearing thick heavy armour. Working against this is the 'heroic' scale GW operate in, which gives the models heads and hands that are far too large for their frames. Of course since these marines are designed to be scaled with other GW models, I probably should have tried to do them in heroic scale. However, most of the images I've been using for reference depict marines with very small hands and heads compared to their bodies (which I think is consistent with how the human body grows.)

Thats all well and good, but what am I going to do? I'd already resolved to add thicker armour to the back of the hands (and I'm going to thicken the wrists a little) so it looks like hes wearing the same sort of armour all over, but I suspect this isn't what you're after. I've noticed that the new terminator hands are slightly larger, so I'll at least produce a test using one of those. The other option is orc hands - with some slight claw filing and a GS 'plate' they could become passable, but they woul d be far too large to be anything other than 'heroic scale'.

For the head, I'm really disinclined to try anything. Firstly because the head is the focal point of a model so any mistakes I make will be obvious. Secondly because I'm not sure its necessary (see above)

On the other hand, I was planning on doing some fairly major work on most of the helmets anyway, so it wouldn't be much more work if I can get it right (and they'd only need to be a little thicker, so the un-helmeted models don't look too odd)

What are peoples thoughts on this?

Tsuro

[Sister Carnae]

I personally think that the scaling is brilliant. You've done a great job on these guys and I can't really think of anything to change. As you said about the scale of heads, hands and shoulder guards, you only have to look at the front cover of Horus Rising to see how tiny these things seem in comparison to the huge amount of armour that Space Marines actually wear. IMHO I think what you've got at the moment shouldn't be change.....just replicated many, many times!!

[Vauximus]

I personally think that the scaling is brilliant. You've done a great job on these guys and I can't really think of anything to change. As you said about the scale of heads, hands and shoulder guards, you only have to look at the front cover of Horus Rising to see how tiny these things seem in comparison to the huge amount of armour that Space Marines actually wear. IMHO I think what you've got at the moment shouldn't be change.....just replicated many, many times!!

 

I could not agree more. I think you've just inspired me to assemble my termies as termies, and go buy some green stuff.

[Freakiq]

I think you should rotate the left hand so that the top of the bolter is facing the way he's walking which is a more natural pose, the same should be done with the head too.

Other than that it looks great and emulates the proportions of the artwork perfectly.

[Captin Xavier]

Hey Tsuro,

 

These are come cracking marines, and im really enjoying this thread.

 

There is just one things that is bugging me, and that is the fact that all of the 'new' marines in the squad are stood way to straight. When will you ever see a warrior in a war zone stood as straight as that ( regardless of them being astartes)

They need to be a little more hunched and twised, their movements exaggerated some what.

 

Other than that the proportions and execution are spot on.

 

Just my two pennies

 

Cheers

Cpt X

[Vauximus]

Any updates?

[malika666]

Very inspiring thread! I'll keep my eyes on this one for my Word Bearers!

[Tsuro]

There is just one things that is bugging me, and that is the fact that all of the 'new' marines in the squad are stood way to straight. When will you ever see a warrior in a war zone stood as straight as that ( regardless of them being astartes)

They need to be a little more hunched and twised, their movements exaggerated some what.

I completely agree. When I first conceived this project, back at the dawn of creation, it wasn't going to be for wargaming so I went with a "relaxed but wary" theme that I thought would be cool. After this lot (ha!), I'm going to try for far more engaged models (baring the rest of the first squad, who'll obviously be posed similarly to their fellows.)

I have altered them all to some extent to appear more natural though, with varying degrees of success.

_________________________________________________

So, it's been an age since my last update. That's not to say that the effort has ever been far from my mind, only that a combination of frustration and other projects have kept me from making the progress I would have liked. I've still been working in drips and drabs, but I didn't want to post again until I'd made *major* progress. Looking at the previous photos I think it's clear I'm much further along, but that there is still aways to go.

For my most recent burst of activity I focused on the weapons. Partly to help me 'lock down' those pesky poses, but mostly because I was getting bored/frustrated with the armour and wanted a change. My original intention was to merely lengthen the meltagun and do two 'special' bolters (for the marines not holding a CCW) I was enjoying myself too much though, so I got carried away. The only marine now with a stock weapon is Mr. chainsword, and who knows how long that will last.

The two-gun-kid was always going to have an underslung grenade launcher (Grey hunters can't take grenade launchers, but they do get grenades so I don't feel I'm too far from WYSIWYG) but I switched the bolt pistol he was going to have for a plasma pistol (which I consider un-wolfy. What son of Russ would risk blowing himself up rather than take the fight to the enemy?) to enhance his 'weapon specialist' feel. You'll see I couldn't even leave the plasma pistol alone.

I wanted to use a melta-bomb as the 'ammunition' for a melta weapon in a revolveresque fashion, but it proved too large for the combi-weapon. It was too large for the full gun too, even after being lengthened, but I've bulked it up some and it's not so bad now. Still a lot more work needed to make everything look integrated.

Collar guy has himself a "counts as CCW" bayonet now, that I'm incredibly pleased with. I've set the barrel further into the body of the bolter so he can stab with it as well as slice. His knee pad is still a nightmare, but one of the things I try will work sooner or later. It has to.

Not much to say about axe-guy. He's got the worst pose, and I seem unable to correct it, but whatever. His axe is coming along nicely thought, even if I haven't worked out how to do the rest of the shaft yet.

Chainsword guy's sword needs some small work, and his gun needs a scope, but otherwise he's very far along. Once I begin detailing he'll come together very quickly.

Finally the wolfguard. He was originally going to have an open right hand, sculpted to mirror the pose of the power fist, but I thought the model would look more balanced this way. Now I'm not so sure. The power fist isn't angled very well here, it looks extremely unnatural.

None of the heads are final, and I still need to do/re-redo most of the soft armour.

Why all the different styles of weapons? Mainly because I enjoyed designing them, it enhances the "every man is a hero" feel I'm going for and helps to add to the narrative of the model. My 'fluff' thinking goes like this though: Even if Iron priests spent most of their time on the big ticket items, they'd still work on specialist small arms once in a while, if only to relax. And even with such a slow rate of production, within a century there'd be enough 'unique' weapons for every member of the company to have one. And that's with a single priest per company. Factor in multiple priests, the tendency of marines to pass on good weapons and kit and the millennia the chapter has been around and it doesn't strike me as too much of a stretch.

You'll note that none of the figures have shoulder pads. That's because I haven't worked on them much since last time. I have cut down a set slightly, which you can see below, and I'm leaning in that direction for the final size, but since they're so simple to create I'll probably wait until I'm detailing the rest of the models before I make them.

old "scaled" set

new "trimmed" set

I've got some other projects I need to be getting on with now, so it'll be at least a few weeks before I start back on these models. I'm hoping to have them done and painted for the next golden bolters (which should not be an unreasonable goal, but look how long this has taken me so far) so If I keep to that it definitely won't be another two years between posts.

I think I'll try and finish the weapons & powerpacks for next time, and then take some 'glamour' shots of them off of the models; it's about the only way they'll be seen properly.

Tsuro

[Doghouse]

Very nice work! :D

[Mithril hound]

if u make em 100% GS and other stuff, you can cast the body, arms and legs, and sell them.

[Tsuro]

Very nice work! :P

Thanks. I'm following your footprints, so when this eventually drives me mad it'll be mostly your fault.

if u make em 100% GS and other stuff, you can cast the body, arms and legs, and sell them.

I'm afraid that as long as they look like and are identifiable as "space marines" that'll be a breach of

GW

's IP. It'd be interesting to see how much they could be genericised to 'sci-fi knights/armour' an still retain functionality, (given that the base armour is pretty plain and theres only so many ways of protecting a body. The backpacks and massive shoulder pads would definitely have to go though) but it's not something I have any immediate plans for.

____________________________________________________________________________

Back once again with the super-late update.

Quick run-down of what I've been up to since last post - Unexpectedly had to leave the country for a couple of weeks, and I returned to discover I'd been challenged to a 'top gear' style contest; to build and race a man-powered boat.

I'm more than a little proud of my group's effort, and I'd post pictures if it wasn't so massively board inappropriate, but it did rather cut into my extra-curricular activities.

During that time I uncovered a sketch I'd made back in '07 of how I envisioned the wolf-guard would eventually look, back when the design philosophy was helmeted, exotic weaponed 13th company. Thought it might be of interest to some, so I've gone and thrown some colour onto it. Obviously things have changed a bit since then.

Now, I finally have some free time. But what's this? There's a painting challenge in the fang, and I've got to get me a piece of that.

I could have just painted a random model and been done with it, but that's so unambitious that I immediately dismissed it. The next option was to rush one of these models to completion, but I've spent so long on them it seems a shame to do that, which leaves option number 3.

Brand new sculpt.

I'm going to attempt to true scale this guy (not my model btw):

http://www.minivault.com/images/WPriestFrontTop.JPG

Sternhammer, the Games day Wolf Priest and strong contender for 'Tsuro's favourite GW model'

My first thought was to do a straight scale and keep all the details the same. However, I realised that some things in the design bothered me, so now I'm shooting for the 'essence' of the model.

Here's what I've done so far:

All the extra bits 'n gubbins are either balanced of tacked on, which is why everything looks so floaty. The power axe is merely a stand-in until I assemble sternhammer's trademark hammer.

I did a quick-and-nasty cast of one of my existing models to get the proportions right, thus saving hours and hours of tedium. I then assembled its pose using another model as reference, thus saving hours and hours of frustration.

Changes I'm making to the original design:

• Wolf pelt rather than cloak - I don't really like cloaks on my Space wolves, and this way I can also move the wolf arms from between his legs (another thing on which I'm not so keen) to around his head.
  
• Plasma pistol rather than bolt - This was done so that I could have the option of fielding him as Ulrik if I wanted to. I'm going to convert the pistol to look as much like Sternhammer's as possible though, which includes the underslung whatever-it-is.
  
• Asymmetrical greaves - the winged wolf-skull is used all over the place on the original. Obviously it's this figure's icon, but I think it could stand to lose some of them. Plus, asymmetry is cool. Just ask square-enix.
  
• More apothecay bits - The original model had some (which looks like they're going to be obscured by the wolf leg. unfortunate) but I'm never going to have a model that uses them otherwise, so why not give him all the arm bits too.
  

I'm not thrilled with the wolf pelt so far (taken from grimnar) so I may break it down further or just sculpt the entire thing from scratch.

Deadline is 1st September, so expect far more updates than you're used to, followed I imagine by another few months of silence.

Be excellent to one another,

Tsuro

[Tsuro]

Alrighty, this is where I am now:

I haven't touched the pelt, shoulder pads etc.. so I didn't bother tacking them on for the update (the details of which they'd obscure anyway).

I'm still using the head from the last post, but I've got it stuck on a pole so I can sculpt the face mask etc, hence the stand-in.

• The torso has been re-shaped and bulked out more at the bottom, so it fits better with the big belt I've started on.
  
• The feet have seen some work, as have the arms. You can see the start of the medical gauntlet on the right wrist.
  
• The plasma pistol is very-nearly complete. I'll get a side-on shot for next time as well as one of sternhammer's bolt-pistol, because I've tried to make it as similar as I can.
  
• elbow pads have been completely sculpted, but I realise they can't be seen in this pic.
  

Going to start on the piping next, which'll hopefully make the model pop.

Tsuro

[Doghouse]

Looking good! :)

 

I really like the pose you got going on with this new guy, the forearm chainsword blade is a nice addition.