Necromancer518 Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 After reading Flight of the Eisenstein I realized something that bothered me. The Imperial fists were en route to Terra to help fortify the palace. The Emperor himself called back the fists to make sure that the Imperial Palace was impenetrable, but why? Why in his moment of glory, when his sons were about to conquer the galaxy in his name and slaughter all their enemies, did he feel it fit to fortify his home? My theory is that the Emperor saw that Horus was going to turn and did Nothing. As powerful a Psyker he was, if he couldn't see that Horus was going to turn I would be surprised. I'd like to hear all of your opinions on the subject. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 he had it fortified because dorn already warned him of the heresy after garro told him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1533675 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necromancer518 Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 he called them back before the fists picked up garro Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1533690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LtColSulla Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I've heard this theory before, but I will state that a common step in "state building" is to consolidate and fortify. It would seem to me to be a natural step in the construction of the Imperium to fortify Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1533780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necromancer518 Posted April 2, 2008 Author Share Posted April 2, 2008 I've heard this theory before, but I will state that a common step in "state building" is to consolidate and fortify. It would seem to me to be a natural step in the construction of the Imperium to fortify Terra. Thats true, but why at that particular moment? I mean why not finish the mission you've spent a great number of years trying to accomplish, and then go back to fortify. It just doesn't make sense, why on the eve of your victory would you go back home and start throwing up walls? Also the Emperor was no mere statesman, he was the most supreme psyker throughout the Imperium. He would have seen the betrayal of Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1533797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiss Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Presumably, the Imperial Fists would have been given the job of securing the Webway beyond the Imperial section. That would warrant their recall, in my opinion... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1533824 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzza Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I've always believed the emperor knew and in fact helped create the circumstances for Horus to turn. I believe he knew about Chaos all along and believed that it would only be able to be destroyed in one massive battle (the fianl battle) and so has manipulated everything since to lead up to that battle when he is resurected and his sons return to him. He'll use the power of the people's worship of him to power himself up and then either destroy Chaos or something else, maybe become one with Chaos to balance it out or something. He recalled the fists to make the palace ready for the battle of terror as one more stepping stone in his grand plan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1533884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiss Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 meh, the Emperor is just a man. psychically gifted, but just a man... Also, I believe he mentions to Dorn that he can't see what lies ahead with his foresight just before the Siege of Terra so there's canonical evidence that this isn't the case (I believe it's in Visions Of Death). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1533887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Styphus Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 meh, the Emperor is just a man. psychically gifted, but just a man... Also, I believe he mentions to Dorn that he can't see what lies ahead with his foresight just before the Siege of Terra so there's canonical evidence that this isn't the case (I believe it's in Visions Of Death). Well this is just straight up wrong. The Emperor is not just a man. What man lives for 20,000 years, can breath air that is toxic to Mortarion, and about a hundred other things. And Dorn was called back to guard the Emperor while he was busy building. Emperor might have seen Horus betraying him, but he refused to believe it. Magnus told him, and he still doubted it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1533892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
brother natar Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I've always believed the emperor knew and in fact helped create the circumstances for Horus to turn. I believe he knew about Chaos all along and believed that it would only be able to be destroyed in one massive battle (the fianl battle) and so has manipulated everything since to lead up to that battle when he is resurected and his sons return to him. He'll use the power of the people's worship of him to power himself up and then either destroy Chaos or something else, maybe become one with Chaos to balance it out or something. He recalled the fists to make the palace ready for the battle of terror as one more stepping stone in his grand plan. Are you saying the Seige of Terra was supposed to be the final battle? Cause Chaos got pasted, but they still survive. As long as their is a Warp, and humanity use it, there will be daemons and Chaos... also, we know of His love for all of His sons, hell he nearly got himself killed because he couldn't bring himself to kill Horus (which he could have done in seconds). So why, if he knew about Chaos, would he order Magnus killed? Surely he'd need him for the 'final battle'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1533947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzza Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I'm not saying the Battle of Terra was the "final battle". Far from it, it was prob one of the first major battles (in the physical world). I just have this feeling that he planned it all and that everything that has happening has been for a reason as part of a bigger plan. Just off topic for one second: If the emperor is the reincarnated verson of all the shamens (read it on another thread) surely if he dies he has the knowlage as these shamens did to reincarnate himself? Back on topic: Would he need a whole legion to defend him whilst he was building? - Especially as he was building in secret. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1533952 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiss Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 That piece of fluff hasn't been mentioned in any GW publication for years... It's questionable whether it is still valid... He is a man, by his own admission. If he was a God, he would have accepted the worship of his subjects. All those things you pointed out could have been achieved through his psychic talents. By denying that he is a man, you deny his whole vision of how the universe is constructed which, considering you hold him in such high esteem, would seem to be a bit out of character... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1533957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherAtrox Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 That piece of fluff hasn't been mentioned in any GW publication for years... It's questionable whether it is still valid... He is a man, by his own admission. If he was a God, he would have accepted the worship of his subjects. All those things you pointed out could have been achieved through his psychic talents. By denying that he is a man, you deny his whole vision of how the universe is constructed which, considering you hold him in such high esteem, would seem to be a bit out of character... He was not born like a man, he was not raised like a man, he did not live a man's life. The Emperor was created by an enclave of shamans. That pretty much puts the halt on any theories of him being human. Hes about as human as an Astartes or Primarch is. Paired with that, he has ascended a status of god-like power if not godhood outright, something that fluff has confirmed on a regular basis. Yes, during the Crusades he did not wish to be worshipped but things changed once he was put on the throne. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1534033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dvil666 Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 He is a man, by his own admission. If he was a God, he would have accepted the worship of his subjects. "only the truly divine deny their divinity" Even if that quotation's not true and the Emperor really was a man, could he have been denying divinity to make people think he was a god? After all, there is no physical evidence for gods. A god is really just an idea, a thought, so if a man can make enough people think he is one, does that not indeed make him one? Hmmm... :huh: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1534052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzza Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 That's going to open up a big can of worms with people debating what a god is or what makes a god! - I personaly don't think there's such a thing as a god, it's just a being that's above you in evolution, we might seem like gods to ants. The emperor may have said he didn't want to be worshiped but he sent his "power" to protect his believers (in the HH books) and this will proberbly turn out to be how the whole religion started with these few people and the "Saint". The Emperor certainly had the power to see the future or possible futures so he could have known about Horus and everything all along, I suppose what you really have to wonder is not really if he knew but how much is he\was he willing to sacrifice for his children, no matter what they may be doing. Ask any parent and even if their children are murderers they'll still love them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1534062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiss Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 How is his godhood CONFIRMED on a regular basis? Do we have accounts from the Emperor's point of view as he looks down upon his humanity? I don't recall any. The only evidence we have is that he is used as a figurehead by those in authority to assure the compliance of the masses, and that he acts as a focal point for a person's faith when they are tested. There is no direct canonical proof that he is a god. What Keeler did with the daemon does not necessarily mean the Emperor is God, I would interpret the force she used to repel it as faith. Faith in anything will do the job, as long as you are completely faithful and there are no cracks through which Choas can seep into your soul. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1534086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maeklos Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 Just off topic for one second: If the emperor is the reincarnated verson of all the shamens (read it on another thread) surely if he dies he has the knowlage as these shamens did to reincarnate himself? There is something to this effect at the beginning of the Inquisitor rulebook. Inquisitors debating whether to release the Emperor or not. There is talk of whether he can come back or not, and how if he does come back, he may not be the same. Of course, the alternative is to leave him trapped in his deathless state on the Golden Throne...just to be safe. Oh, and so the High Lords will be in charge. The Inquisitors figure that they can use the burgeoning Imperial Creed as a tool to control humanity...without needing the Emperor around. After all, if he was around, then he'd crush humanity's faith. And faith is what keeps Chaos at bay... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1534120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Taurus Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 I seriously doubt the Emperor being involved in the Heresy, the powers of chaos feared the dominion of man for it would bring about an age of knowledge secularity and science and thereby the end of the chaotic gods. that is why they corrupted his supreme creation, the primarchs. As for the Emperor fortifying his palace, he just had it done because of some incidents which led him to understand that he was not invulnerable and that the forces of chaos had a vivd interst in bringing his rule to an end. I mean he was working on a device (golden throne) with which he would have gained total control of the warp. So he was probably not very amused when the warning of an upcoming betrayal, issued by the very person who was to be inducted into the device, caused a crack in the palace' warp shield enabling the powers of chaos to enter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1534169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beef Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 who can say what the Emp knew or did not know? Its just theory. Only JJ knows the truth, but thats cos he is the EMP.. True story, the Emps characator was based on Jervais and horus was based on Kinkade while Russ was based of Chambers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1534172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deus lo volt Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 What an interesting thought! I think he did know. If Magnus the Red hadn't screwed things up with his warning I think the Heresy would've ended very quickly indeed. Terra starts to look like a massive trap that the Emperor was going to use to draw the 'Chosen' of Chaos to his death, whoever it might be. And lest anyone forget, Conrad Kurze aka Night Haunter knew what was going to happen the instant the Emperor asked him to join the Great Crusade! If he knew why not Bob? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1534493 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shadow Guard Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 After reading Flight of the Eisenstein I realized something that bothered me. The Imperial fists were en route to Terra to help fortify the palace. The Emperor himself called back the fists to make sure that the Imperial Palace was impenetrable, but why? Why in his moment of glory, when his sons were about to conquer the galaxy in his name and slaughter all their enemies, did he feel it fit to fortify his home? My theory is that the Emperor saw that Horus was going to turn and did Nothing. As powerful a Psyker he was, if he couldn't see that Horus was going to turn I would be surprised. I'd like to hear all of your opinions on the subject. I think the discussion is missing a few relevant points. First of all, the emperor is not just any man. If you go way back in to the back ground of 40, where the the empyrean and chaos were described, it is said that at first the human race was at peace with nature. The psychic balance was maintained. During this time souls that died enterd the empyrean and were reborn. But as man's emotions developed, the empyrean began to roil with such emotions, which coalesced in to what we now know as demons, greatre demons and the first three and then with the death of the eldar race four great gods of chaos. Shamans (psykers) in particularly could not survive the empyrean easily. Apparently at a great gathering f shamans, where they discussed their future, and realising that in their time, after their death many of their sould would perish in the empyrean rather than be reborn, they committed mass suicide, binding all their souls and psychic might in to a single being, which would live forever and thus avoid exposure to the empyrean. That individual was subsequently known as the emperor! He is not just another humanbeing! He is the collective physical, psychic and intellectual might of all the worlds shamans and his sole purpose is the develop the human race to a point that it is completely protected from the predations of Chaos. Secondly the emperor had a very real reason to return to Terra at the peak of his crusade. He had found all his sons and united them with the existing legions. He had the great crusade well on a winning streak and the primarchs were more than capable of keeping it going. He knew that the rapidly emerging psyker gene was a threat to humanity as the human race had notdeveloped strongly enough to protect themselves against chaos. Thus he began his great secret works beneath the Imperial Palace, which required him to shut himself within the dungeons for months at a time. The secret work has been revealed to the ana artificial portal to gain entry in to the eldar webway. With unlimited and permanent access to the webway, which was proof against the predations of chaos, humanity could traverse the stars in a blink of an eye, in a more capable, safe and dependable manner. He obviously recalled Dorn to create the defenses and defend the palace during this critical period. He intended Magnus the Red to sit on the Golden throne and use his psychic might to control the portal. And he intended the human race to leave the warp space forever for their star travel. He had a great plan. He knew about chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1534700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiss Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Why has the Emperor's creation story not been mentioned for about a decade? We know he knew about chaos, but you missed the point of the question that was asked, which was did he just sit there and do nothing because he wanted horus to betray him (as part of some enormous grand design) or could he genuinely not see the future beyond a certain point? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1534729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Eleysium Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Blasphemy! Burn the Heretic! You shall be purged! ^_^ Seriously though, I do not believe that the emperor was in on anything. Fortifying the Imperial Palace, or any important government buiding for that matter is pretty common throughout the Imperium. Not to mention it is a wise thing to do. On top of that, I was under the understanding that Garro had already warned Dorn, which Dorn in turn warned the Emperor of Horus' treachery. So, he called the Fists back to Terra to defend and fortify the Palace. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1534933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacklbry Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 I like the comment in Lord of Night " ...can there be an Emperor without an Empire?" The emperor had lived for thousands of years. He had seen cultures rise and fall. He knew the dangers of his heroic soldiers becoming too popular and too powerful. He could certainly not allow the development of rivals. The hardest part of the crusade was over, and the need for the Asartes was drawing to a close. Its not like he could mothball them or decomission them, or ask them to retire peacfull back to the farm. A cvil war could eliminate potential rivals, as well as weaken the Asartes irrevocably. With half the asartes fighting the other half, there was a good chance most of the primarchs, including uber-heroe Horus, would kill each other. Thus eliminating the rivals. If controlled correctly, the civil war could be used to help consolidate the empire as well by giving a shared history, and a percieved enemy within. Usually, a culture that suffers a civil war is done, but occasionally, if rebuilt correctly, the culture can emerge stronger. The Emperor not only knew this would happen, but with his longterm view and plans, actually set the parts in motion for it to happen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1534943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alkana Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Personally, I think the Emperor knew about the Heresy. In Legion, Alpharius says something about the Emperor's main goal being to defeat Chaos. The Cabal had forseen that Chaos could only be defeated if the Emperor was killed and Horus won the Heresy. If the Cabal could see that the Emperor had to die to end Chaos, then the Emperor probably knew too. Perhaps he wanted Horus to win so that Chaos would be destroyed, but something went wrong during the final battle which caused the Emperor to kill Horus instead of letting him win. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/#findComment-1535370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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