Weiss Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 That's the Cabal's view on things. The Emperor's plan, as suggested in Legion, was to assure human dominance over the galaxy, control the psyker gene and eliminate humanity's dependance on the Warp through the use of the Webway (in the artbooks that one) as a travel device (in much the same way as the Eldar). I don't believe he would have encouraged a civil war, considering he had crusaded for a full two hundred years to forge his Imperium, it just doesn't make sense to me... Dorn was recalled way before the Heresy (at the start of Horus Rising, in fact). I still think that had the Imperial Webway not been breeched by Magnus, the Emperor would have sent the Imperial Fists in to secure the webway beyond, hence the recall. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1535492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacklbry Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 In thinking about it, I am not sure that the Civil War was really all that large in scope. While it did occupy a large quantity of the Emperors forces, it only involved a handful of planets, and was over almost before it began. Horus Trashes some chapters, rushes to Earth to finish things, Gets killed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1535721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shadow Guard Posted April 5, 2008 Share Posted April 5, 2008 Why has the Emperor's creation story not been mentioned for about a decade? We know he knew about chaos, but you missed the point of the question that was asked, which was did he just sit there and do nothing because he wanted horus to betray him (as part of some enormous grand design) or could he genuinely not see the future beyond a certain point? The emperor knew very well the dangers of chaos and I think he also knew that we could not defeat chaos in the conventional sense, as long as sentient beings with raw emeotions inhabited the universe. The essence of chaos is fuelled by the reflections of sentient emotions. It took the death of almost an entire race to create one of the chaos gods (Eldar and Slaanesh) What in fact he was trying to do was to create barriers that would protect humans from the predations of chaos. His grand design was to create the articial portal in to the eldar webway, which would enable the human race to maintain their far flung empire without needing access to the warp, either for communictions or for travel. If and when that happened, the emperor, with the aid of the sisters of silence could have instituted a galaxy wide genocide to eliminate all psykers..... perhaps sparing just those who had the strength to become librarians in the adeptus astares etc.... This is essentially what the creators of the Necrons (can't remember their names) were attempting to do, to cut the warp off from the material universe.. The emperor saw Horus for the danger he was to humanity, so much that at the last moment, even when realization came to Horus of his flyy, the emperor could not allow him to live as he felt that if Horus fell to the chaos powers again, he would not be there to stop him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1536241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiss Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 So in answer, your saying no, that wasn't his plan? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1537782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warrior Of Ultramar Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 Why has the Emperor's creation story not been mentioned for about a decade? We know he knew about chaos, but you missed the point of the question that was asked, which was did he just sit there and do nothing because he wanted horus to betray him (as part of some enormous grand design) or could he genuinely not see the future beyond a certain point? Actually, the Emperor was in the Webway the moment he returned to Terra, and recalled the 'Fists at the same time, to fortify the palace (and probably webway tunnel) while he was away. The one in control was Malcador, and he was under orders not to disturb the Emperor for any reason. So i'm not sure the Emperor knew about Horus' betrayal at first, i mean, even when Garro got to Terra to tell the Emperor he didn't get any further than Malcador. So the 'doing nothing' piece of the timeline was in fact Malcador hesitating. At least thats what Collected Visions says anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1541156 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Necromancer518 Posted April 13, 2008 Author Share Posted April 13, 2008 Well see here's where the problem lies, the Emperor is a being of immense psychic abilities one of which is future sight. I find it highly unlikely that he would go back to terra, leave his sons in control and not check up on them occasionally. That would be my top priority every morning "okay, the Lion and Russ are fighting again, Peturabo is still pissed, seems like Magnus has something really important to tell me and... Horus is going to turn on me. Okay, everything is as it should be." If he didn't do that, than it is true that he is the false emperor and unfit to rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1543445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shadow Guard Posted April 13, 2008 Share Posted April 13, 2008 Well see here's where the problem lies, the Emperor is a being of immense psychic abilities one of which is future sight. I find it highly unlikely that he would go back to terra, leave his sons in control and not check up on them occasionally. That would be my top priority every morning "okay, the Lion and Russ are fighting again, Peturabo is still pissed, seems like Magnus has something really important to tell me and... Horus is going to turn on me. Okay, everything is as it should be." If he didn't do that, than it is true that he is the false emperor and unfit to rule. The psychic might and prescience of the emperor are legend...yet there is a limit to everything..... the ability to read the potential multiple futures and pick the one that is likely to occur is an extremely arduous task, even for mighty psykers like Eldra Ulthruan and even the gods of chaos.... and during the Horus Heresy the emperor states clearly to Rogal Dorn (or to malcador) that the future was unclear to his prescience, meaning even he could not see many of the events that were to occur... besides he was distracted first by his great work under the imperial palace and then once Magnus mucked things up, he was distractd holding the daemons at bay. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1543484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexter099 Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 "If and when that happened, the emperor, with the aid of the sisters of silence could have instituted a galaxy wide genocide to eliminate all psykers..... " Actually, the Emperors plan was to protect humans as they evolved into super-psychers like him, not kill all Psychers. It's somewhere in the Horus Heresy series, I don't remember where. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1543719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shadow Guard Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 "If and when that happened, the emperor, with the aid of the sisters of silence could have instituted a galaxy wide genocide to eliminate all psykers..... " Actually, the Emperors plan was to protect humans as they evolved into super-psychers like him, not kill all Psychers. It's somewhere in the Horus Heresy series, I don't remember where. Agreed... as I stated above If and when that happened, the emperor, with the aid of the sisters of silence could have instituted a galaxy wide genocide to eliminate all psykers..... perhaps sparing just those who had the strength to become librarians in the adeptus astares etc.... I said "could have' (my very humble opinion)... and "sparing just those who had the strength to become librarians in the adeptus astares " is what you refer to as super psykers.... He wanted the human race protected until it could evolve adequately to protect itself and if that had happened we wouldn't have this excellent game / hobby :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1543820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironloki Posted April 14, 2008 Share Posted April 14, 2008 I found it strange that Sanguinius saw his own death at the hands of Horus and Konrad saw brother kill brother, which drove him mad essentially - yet the Emperor remained unaware. The greatest psychic of all the human race, if not all of the races, did not see this comming? :rolleyes: . Also didn't the Eldar warn the Emperor? (I think this is an old reference, IIRC) I believe that the Emperor did know that his sons would turn against him and each other. How you can live for so long, see so many changes and movements in history, guide humanity from the background and even have your own sons predict the future and yet still not have a clue what is going on. This does not make sense. So if the Emperor did know then why did he let it happen. To me there are two answers/theories: 1 - He was 'blinded by love'. He saw the visions but blocked them out. These were his chosen sons that would put humanity on top in the universe. We can see that when fighting Horus it was not until the last mintue that the Emperor blasted Horus, when he saw that he could not be saved. Maybe the Emperor was hoping that, although he could see the future, he might be able to change things and save his sons. The future might not be set so rigidly 2 - It was part of a grand plan. That is to be enthroned upon the Golden throne and then eventually be reborn as the Star Child (The old theories about Cypher using the Lions sword to cut down the Emperor's mortal coil). The Star Child then brings about a new salvation for mankind finally ridding the universe of Chaos. However, it appears to be stated that he did not want to be worshipped like a God. Either he really meant this or it was...you know one of those attempts at trying to deny flattery yet actually crazing it (Oh I forgot the term, doh!). "Oh no I'm not a God...honest...but do go on :lol:" . [iMO] Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1544086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shadow Guard Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 I found it strange that Sanguinius saw his own death at the hands of Horus and Konrad saw brother kill brother, which drove him mad essentially - yet the Emperor remained unaware. The greatest psychic of all the human race, if not all of the races, did not see this comming? :lol: . Also didn't the Eldar warn the Emperor? (I think this is an old reference, IIRC) I believe that the Emperor did know that his sons would turn against him and each other. How you can live for so long, see so many changes and movements in history, guide humanity from the background and even have your own sons predict the future and yet still not have a clue what is going on. This does not make sense. The problem here is that you are assuming that visions of the future and the power of presience are all absolute and fool proof. Visions are simply that. One needs to question their content, their meaning, and put it in to perspective. Even the emperor's pwers of presience were clouded during the latter stages of the heresy, in the emperor's own words. The eldar may have seen things clearer, but who would trust those aliens, who would readily sacrifice an entire system if only to save a single one of their own? It is more likely, that the recurrent visions of brother fightling brother would have made no sense to Konrad and may have even had himself question his own sanity. There are times in our lives that we all will never be able to consider the potential for a particular distasteful event to occur (wife who never believes her husband could cheat on her!) but later, looking back one feels how ever we didn't see it coming! So if the Emperor did know then why did he let it happen. To me there are two answers/theories: 1 - He was 'blinded by love'. He saw the visions but blocked them out. These were his chosen sons that would put humanity on top in the universe. We can see that when fighting Horus it was not until the last mintue that the Emperor blasted Horus, when he saw that he could not be saved. Maybe the Emperor was hoping that, although he could see the future, he might be able to change things and save his sons. The future might not be set so rigidly 2 - It was part of a grand plan. That is to be enthroned upon the Golden throne and then eventually be reborn as the Star Child (The old theories about Cypher using the Lions sword to cut down the Emperor's mortal coil). The Star Child then brings about a new salvation for mankind finally ridding the universe of Chaos. However, it appears to be stated that he did not want to be worshipped like a God. Either he really meant this or it was...you know one of those attempts at trying to deny flattery yet actually crazing it (Oh I forgot the term, doh!). "Oh no I'm not a God...honest...but do go on :lol:" . [iMO] The emperor wanted to purge myth, religion and falsehoods. He wanted the human race to evolve believing the clarity of science. Besides, he chided Lorgar so harshly for believing in worship, that the damned wordbearer turned coat and started the whole heresy thing. The issue is that despite his immense potential and might, the emperor simply could not be everywhere at the same time, predict every possible future and anticipate every occasion for treachery. The universe is simply too vast a place... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1544815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Almightyraisin Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 The universe is simply too vast a place... The GALAXY is simply too vast a place. :devil: I would say that Shadow Guard knows his stuff and I'm pretty sure the Emperor wasn't in on it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1544868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ein Windir Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 The Emperor also chided Logan for being slow in taking over worlds too. Logan was not using force, but gospel to convert worlds over. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1545408 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vassakov Posted April 15, 2008 Share Posted April 15, 2008 In thinking about it, I am not sure that the Civil War was really all that large in scope. While it did occupy a large quantity of the Emperors forces, it only involved a handful of planets, and was over almost before it began. Horus Trashes some chapters, rushes to Earth to finish things, Gets killed. I believe this is incorrect, and that the Heresy in fact lasted for 8 years between Istvaan V (official beginning) and the fall of Horus/Relief of Terra (official end.) Then it dragged on for nearly 100 more years as the Imperium as we know it began to form and the Codex Astartes was written, Imperial Army split etc. It destroyed dozens of planets (Tallarn, Istvaan III, IV and V, Prospero, Olympia, Caliban to name a few.) According to Wikipedia it claimed in the region of 7 Trillion lives (thats 10 for everyone on earth at the moment. Which actually, given the number of planets is not that much ;) ) As for the original post, I think that it could well have been orchestrated by the Emperor. In Legion it is stated that he has a Grand Design by Grammaticus, and: It had been clear that the Emperor was never going to turn away from the path of catastrophic bloodshed he was set upon. What is perhaps possible is that the Emperor thought he could allow the heresy to occur, and by sacrificing Horus and the traitors could defeat Chaos. Unfortunately, the Cabal knows what will happen then. The rest, as they say, is the future history... P.S. Either that, or the Emperor is in fact Doctor Who. I mean, look at the "Slightly-Psychic-Paper," Human appearance but obviously not human nature, unimaginable powers and ability to see "all that was, all that is and all that ever could be." Oh, and the preponderence for fiddling with genetics (Daleks in Manhattan, Empty Child/Doctor Dances, New Earth etc. Come on, David Tennants clearly waiting to take over the world. :sweat: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1545521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiss Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 That quote could easily refer to the Great Crusade though... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1545872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacklbry Posted April 16, 2008 Share Posted April 16, 2008 The question becomes "was the Emperor looking out for what is best for humanity, or for himself?" Maybe I am cynical because I am a Night Lord (and Eldar) player, or maybe I play those armies because I am cynical. I think the Emp.s machinations were bigger and more dangerous than most believe. Absolute power and all that. In the end, nobody knows what the Emperors real plans were except him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1546084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlmb_123 Posted April 17, 2008 Share Posted April 17, 2008 TacI'd be inclined to agree with Tacklbry's first point about the Emperor having a good knowledge of how societeis and cultures operate. The reason he left the crusade under the control of Horus is he had reached a point where he could begin the next phase of his plans. Creating an empire wasn't the be all and end all, he wanted to offer protection to as many people as possible, so bringng them under one body made this more possible. Of course, everyone has an opinion, so it could conversely be seen as magalomanic. As to why he ignored Kurze's visions and all the rest of it, maybe he wasn't superstitious. He may have been psychic, but not being gifted with divination, maybe he didn't put any store in it. Religion, superstition, magic and mysticism are all linked in the minds of most people, but maybe the Emperor saw psychic power and the warp as a science, something which was lost post-heresy. Why tell people about Gods and souls in the warp, when you view them as sentient intelligences and psychic residue? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1547188 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warprat Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 I think you have to think with a long view here... If one is to assume that the motives of the Emperor are to enable mankind to be the dominant species in the galaxy, or even the universe, then I think one must consider the total picture. The age of Technology, the fast, direct approach to the dominance of mankind failed. Probably due to Chaos, even though the Emperor took care to base much of the infrastructure on machines. The Emperor learned a valuable lesson. Mankind must control the immaterium to control the universe. To control the immaterium, mankind must become a psychic species. But how to control the process, so as not to end up as the Eldar? How to keep humanity from imploding a second time, this time maybe for ever? Answer, a large technologicly stagnant human empire where humanity grows psychic abilities in a very controlled environment. How to do this? Use heavy control on the population via the government and institute an advanced psychic training program. Problem... what would Chaos do to interfere, like the last time? Any solution would have to involve Chaos in the plan... Solution. Use Chaos as the catylist for psychic advancement. But since chaotic advancement is fraught with perils no normal society can withstand, human society must be hardend. Mankind must have government that can suppress civil rights and inforce edicts draconian in nature. And nothing provides a better solution for this than a civil war where society can be suppressed without restriction. Plan: 1) Unite humanity under one government on Terra. 2) Link former colonies to this government. 3) Create Primarchs to speed the crusade and entice Chaos to interfere (trapping them into the plan). 4) Allow Primarchs to create civil war. 5) Step aside to allow the empire to stagnate and grow psychicly. What doesn't kill humanity strenghtens it. Other Empires: 1) Eldar- Destroyed by Chaos, not a threat any more. 2) Choas- Now part of the plan, contain Chaotic forces within the Eldar ruins. 3) Orks- Not a serious threat. Stomp on and contain outbreaks. 4) Necrons- Ignore thier existance, until they can be dealt with. 5) Tau- To small to be a threat. 6) Tyranids- Something must be done. Reserve two legions and send loyal Primarchs to counter strike. While on the Golden Throne: 1) Play mortally wounded to enable suppessive government to control chaotic psychic growth process. 2) Build Immaterium sanctuary for Human souls using sacrificed energy of chaos possesed psychers. 3) Build a force in the Immanterium based on order. 4) Use this new force to hit and run against mankinds Immateral enemies and occasional material universe attacks. (The Legion of the Damned?) 5) Psychic strike at the Hivemind. Its all part of the Emperor's plan... Warprat ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1552115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiss Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 Nice theory man, sounds interesting, though farfetched... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1552129 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlmb_123 Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 Of course, the Emperor probably wasn't aware of the Tau, Necrons or Tyranids, and if he was precognicant (sp?), he may have done something about it when he knew he had direct control over the Imperium. Warprat's theory is based upon knowledge of the galaxy as it stands in the late 41st Millenium, and not as the political and geographical galaxy sat in the 30th. There's also the presumption that the current situation is the one that will stand. In real time, Tau didn't exist ten years ago, and Necrons didn't exist ten years (and five months) ago, but the Heresy did. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1552317 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warprat Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 Of course, the Emperor probably wasn't aware of the Tau, Necrons or Tyranids, and if he was precognicant (sp?), he may have done something about it when he knew he had direct control over the Imperium. Warprat's theory is based upon knowledge of the galaxy as it stands in the late 41st Millenium, and not as the political and geographical galaxy sat in the 30th. There's also the presumption that the current situation is the one that will stand. In real time, Tau didn't exist ten years ago, and Necrons didn't exist ten years (and five months) ago, but the Heresy did. If he could see into the future and really planned for it... At any rate, the only ones who wern't around were the Tau, and they don't count for much anyway. Everything else could be easily sensed by the most powerful human psycher in the 30th century. He doesn't need direct control, everything has been set in motion. He need only wait for his plan to unfold. His usual control mode has been to operate behind the scenes, comming out as the Emperor was only an emergency measure. He is a super psycher that has been around for 40,000+ years and has probably been controlling the Earth for at least 35,000 of it. Being on the Golden Throne does not in any way hinder his control. In fact, it probably frees him to expand his abilities. Warprat ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1552367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiss Posted April 23, 2008 Share Posted April 23, 2008 Hmm, that's one thing I've never really put much stock in. The Star Child story hasn't been touched on in at least a decade (as far as I'm aware), and all this "he's been there from the start" stuff sounds very much like just about any religion when talking about their God. He could just be a freak mutation that was born in a normal way pre-unification that then grew up to be an amazing warlord, found a long-abandoned lab from the DAOT under the Urals and thanks to his superhuman mind was able to assimilate all the knowledge contained in its databanks (or some kind of encyclopedia lying on the floor :lol:) then go on to create the proto-astartes and the rest is history... That's just a possibility though... (before you pull out the torches and pitchforks...) :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1552427 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big King Bob Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 Hmm, that's one thing I've never really put much stock in. The Star Child story hasn't been touched on in at least a decade (as far as I'm aware), and all this "he's been there from the start" stuff sounds very much like just about any religion when talking about their God. He could just be a freak mutation that was born in a normal way pre-unification that then grew up to be an amazing warlord, found a long-abandoned lab from the DAOT under the Urals and thanks to his superhuman mind was able to assimilate all the knowledge contained in its databanks (or some kind of encyclopedia lying on the floor :)) then go on to create the proto-astartes and the rest is history... That's just a possibility though... (before you pull out the torches and pitchforks...) ;) Finds a lab? with computers? accesses the sum total of human knowledge up to the DAOT? DAMN YOU WIKIPEDIA!!! DAMN YOU!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1553406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlmb_123 Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 And when Horus rebelled, he changed the articles on Wiki to confuse people. Naughty Horus. The Emperor being amongst Humanity for thousnads of years is still in the canon, just the shamans and Star Child stuff isn't However, they've been putting in more "it is said"'s though. It I think people are more aware of how GW canon works now, they're shaping an atmosphere, not just giving hard, cold facts anymore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1553454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiss Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 and that's very annoying if you ask me... though good in some ways, I suppose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/2/#findComment-1553479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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