Notlage Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 I wouldn't dismiss totally the star child stuff. Some interesting fluff (from 2005) can be found in the inquisitor online downloads: http://www.specialist-games.com/inquisitor/rulebook.asp See the Thorian faction book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1553728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warprat Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 The funny thing is that by GW fluff, the Emperor should be walking among us today in the real world... and since nobody knows of him, he must be really good at hiding his tracks... It's the only verifiable fact we, as present day humans, can have of a ficticious universe 38000 years into the future... We are the 40,000 experts on the Emperor's early years. Hehehe... ;) Warprat ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1554916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault-captainaetion Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 The sensible answer could be that during the height of the great crusade, the legions were furthest away from Terra - so they it needed to be fortified against a potential decapitating strike by eldar or orks ( or even the C'tan), ridding the galaxy of humanity. Thats why Dorn was called back. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1781003 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Spikey Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 *1st Post* Well considering the crazy hell that happened when Magnus pierced the psychic shielding protecting the Human tunnel of the Web Way (vast horde of Daemons pouring through etc) I think fortifying the Palace and having an entire Astartes Legion on standby were probably just good planning on the Emperor's part in case something did go wrong. Also, I don't think he predicted the Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1781066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 Part of me really wants to support this idea... because it makes the Emperor's *facepalm* moments so much easier to accept, given his power. Also the Emperor was no mere statesman, he was the most supreme psyker throughout the Imperium. He would have seen the betrayal of Horus. Sure He would have, unless deus-ex-machina/the Shadowpoint concept/whatever inserts a cloud over His vision just before the Heresy... which it does. That piece of fluff hasn't been mentioned in any GW publication for years... It's questionable whether it is still valid... How so? Fluff isn't overruled until it is overwritten or contradicted. Neither have occurred to this fluff. Or the Star Child fluff, thank you. Still valid. He is a man, by his own admission. So the Emperor can treat His sons like weapons and discard them at the first opportunity (Curze), be too proud to accept a warning (Magnus), ignore the blatant mistreatment of His sons by their brothers (Perturabo, Curze again, Alpharius), abduct one of His sons and leave his warriors to die (Angron), ignore the warnings of a being that belongs to a race that has greater mastery over far-sight than any human save Himself (Eldrad), shun the adoration of His son instead of redirecting it (Lorgar), send an easily-manipulated and intolerant barbarian against one of His sons and expect things to turn out 'aaaawwwright' (Magnus, again- sacking of Prospero), and embark on a genocidal and galaxy-spanning crusade to bring millions of worlds under His heel, but He can't tell a lie to further his own ambitions? If he was a God, he would have accepted the worship of his subjects.. Would he have? If He was a god, but saw that the worship of gods would bring about the fall of Mankind, do you think He might be able to restrain His thirst for worship for the betterment of His people? And lest anyone forget, Conrad Kurze aka Night Haunter knew what was going to happen the instant the Emperor asked him to join the Great Crusade! If he knew why not Bob? I don't think Curze knew exactly what would happen. Plus, just because someone has 20/20 doesn't mean they won't see the same things as another person if they're facing away from what the second is seeing... Why has the Emperor's creation story not been mentioned for about a decade? See above. I like the comment in Lord of Night " ...can there be an Emperor without an Empire?" I liked the whole book, but yeah. Good quote. The greatest psychic of all the human race, if not all of the races, did not see this comming? :) . Also didn't the Eldar warn the Emperor? (I think this is an old reference, IIRC) Firstly, we know that His vision was clouded at the time of the Heresy. Second, He's a supremely proud and xenophobic fella- you really think He'll trust an alien over His son? Hmm, that's one thing I've never really put much stock in. The Star Child story hasn't been touched on in at least a decade (as far as I'm aware) Again. See above. and all this "he's been there from the start" stuff sounds very much like just about any religion when talking about their God. The Emperor? Parallels to Messianic archetypes and God/creation tales? Who knew? The Emperor being amongst Humanity for thousnads of years is still in the canon, just the shamans and Star Child stuff isn't Since when? See above, yet again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1781170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyp100 Posted November 22, 2008 Share Posted November 22, 2008 Firstly, I wanna stomp out the theories that the Emperor just sat back and let the Heresy happen to "strengthen" humanity: Firstly, he didn't WANT Chaos to corrupt his sons, in the HH book (forgot which) he was pissed as they were flung across space. Secondly, why did he do EVERYTHING he did, I mean, he was actually working on the web-ways, whats the point if you really didn't want humanity to advance? I mean, he could have just sat down, and ate a long lunch, or went to a holiday home. If he really could see the future, then he would know the HH would destroy humanity (look at some new fluff) and his throne would fail, letting the web way open, and many demons flood out and then start kill humans from the inside, why would be let it happen? Also, anything with Necrons and Nids is kinda stupid, firstly, NO humans knew about the Necrons, not even him or the shamans he spawned from, there more ancient then humans ever being around, secondly, the Nids hadn't reached our galaxy by then, so I doubt he would worry about that, if he even KNEW about it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1781455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logain the Ranger Posted November 23, 2008 Share Posted November 23, 2008 So why, if he knew about Chaos, would he order Magnus killed? Surely he'd need him for the 'final battle'. The Emperor wanted Magnus brought in to him. Horus intercepted the message and told Russ to kill Magnus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1782224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simonius Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 Do we really know how the Emperor's far sight works? Does he see multiple possibilities (sort of if I pull this lever, this will happen - nine times out of ten) or does he see a single thread of continuity? If the multiple option, maybe he saw the Heresy but dismissed it as a possibility so remote that it wasn't worth considering. Maybe he didn't realise that for every lever he was pulling to manipulate the future, others (Chaos etc.) were pulling their levers too to make sure he ended up on the wrong track - even though it looked like the right one to him until the end Various sources say that his vision is "clouded" from the time of the Heresy forwards. Maybe it is difficult for him to see the future when it directly concerns him and all he sees is the broad sweep of history? I don't believe he was "in on it" at all - as mighty as he was, he was insome part still human and therefore prone to mistakes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1783805 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethrion Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 After reading Flight of the Eisenstein I realized something that bothered me. The Imperial fists were en route to Terra to help fortify the palace. The Emperor himself called back the fists to make sure that the Imperial Palace was impenetrable, but why? Why in his moment of glory, when his sons were about to conquer the galaxy in his name and slaughter all their enemies, did he feel it fit to fortify his home? My theory is that the Emperor saw that Horus was going to turn and did Nothing. As powerful a Psyker he was, if he couldn't see that Horus was going to turn I would be surprised. I'd like to hear all of your opinions on the subject. I think the discussion is missing a few relevant points. First of all, the emperor is not just any man. If you go way back in to the back ground of 40, where the the empyrean and chaos were described, it is said that at first the human race was at peace with nature. The psychic balance was maintained. During this time souls that died enterd the empyrean and were reborn. But as man's emotions developed, the empyrean began to roil with such emotions, which coalesced in to what we now know as demons, greatre demons and the first three and then with the death of the eldar race four great gods of chaos. Shamans (psykers) in particularly could not survive the empyrean easily. Apparently at a great gathering f shamans, where they discussed their future, and realising that in their time, after their death many of their sould would perish in the empyrean rather than be reborn, they committed mass suicide, binding all their souls and psychic might in to a single being, which would live forever and thus avoid exposure to the empyrean. That individual was subsequently known as the emperor! He is not just another humanbeing! He is the collective physical, psychic and intellectual might of all the worlds shamans and his sole purpose is the develop the human race to a point that it is completely protected from the predations of Chaos. Secondly the emperor had a very real reason to return to Terra at the peak of his crusade. He had found all his sons and united them with the existing legions. He had the great crusade well on a winning streak and the primarchs were more than capable of keeping it going. He knew that the rapidly emerging psyker gene was a threat to humanity as the human race had notdeveloped strongly enough to protect themselves against chaos. Thus he began his great secret works beneath the Imperial Palace, which required him to shut himself within the dungeons for months at a time. The secret work has been revealed to the ana artificial portal to gain entry in to the eldar webway. With unlimited and permanent access to the webway, which was proof against the predations of chaos, humanity could traverse the stars in a blink of an eye, in a more capable, safe and dependable manner. He obviously recalled Dorn to create the defenses and defend the palace during this critical period. He intended Magnus the Red to sit on the Golden throne and use his psychic might to control the portal. And he intended the human race to leave the warp space forever for their star travel. He had a great plan. He knew about chaos. I think Shadow Guard said it best in his second point. I agree entirely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1783928 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingDeath Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 All those "The Emprah knew everything and everything works according to his grand plan" reminds me of some people who use exactly this argumentation for Tzeentch. Seriously, the Chaos Gods got him on the wrong foot with the Horus Heresy and i seriously doubt that he knew everything in advance/ actualy wanted the Heresy to happen. I mean, if not even the Raven god knows the future for certain then why should a man, made of flesh and bone, do it? Sure, he is an extremly powerfull psyker but everything has its limits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1784130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar_Cain Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 According to "Legion", the next book after "Descent of Angels", the Emperor did know about the Heresy, and in fact that was why he created the Primarchs in the beginning. It suggests that there were only two potential outcomes for Humanity, dieing quickly in Civil War under the paranoid leadership of Horus, or drawn out, falling into superstition and devolving from the imperial truth. Supposedly that was the reason Alpharius decided to back Horus, because he was the primarch that best resembled the Emperors pragmatism, and saw in the kabals visions the truth of the matter and what has been in motion for centuries... It also suggest that the Emperor is something far more than either man or chaos. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1784157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingDeath Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Can you please quote that particular passage of Legion? I just ask because i have read the book too and cant remember such a thing. ( might have just missed it ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1784950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 According to "Legion", the next book after "Descent of Angels", the Emperor did know about the Heresy, and in fact that was why he created the Primarchs in the beginning. It suggests that there were only two potential outcomes for Humanity, dieing quickly in Civil War under the paranoid leadership of Horus, or drawn out, falling into superstition and devolving from the imperial truth. Supposedly that was the reason Alpharius decided to back Horus, because he was the primarch that best resembled the Emperors pragmatism, and saw in the kabals visions the truth of the matter and what has been in motion for centuries... It also suggest that the Emperor is something far more than either man or chaos. Nowhere in Legion did it suggest that the Emperor knew about the Heresy and it was the purpose of the Primarchs. Also, the two outcomes presented by the Cabal were that Humanity would be consumed by Horus' guilt were Horus to be victorious, or Humanity would suffer a long and stagnating death (ten thousand years was the suggested number... who knew) if he lost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1784957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Scourge Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 Weren't the "Megarachnids" fought by the Blood Angels, Emperor's Children, and Luna Wolves on Murder the Tyranids? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1791351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildeyedjester Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 I think the emperor was very well aware of the game that was afoot, and called the Fists back to fortify earth as he knew what was about to befall the planet. Remember in the Horus dream sequence, it mentions that the emperor had sensed the lost potential of one of the primarchs. This very well could have been Horus and the emperor could have known Horus would turn on him the whole time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1814050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The emperors chosen Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 maybe its that fact that The emperor had a (maybe) c'tan on Mrs to deal with (read mechanicum) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1814177 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Emund Posted December 20, 2008 Share Posted December 20, 2008 Weren't the "Megarachnids" fought by the Blood Angels, Emperor's Children, and Luna Wolves on Murder the Tyranids? No, I don't think they were supposed to be the Tyranids. I think they were more akin to the 'bugs' in Starship Troopers (minus the brain bugs). Just another xenos race for Humanity to exterminate (without Prejudice) :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1814722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helljumper Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 I just finished reading the new HH book Mechanicum and it should help a bit more on this subject. I suggest you read it because well it pretty awesome and it gives more detail into the emperors powers and some background history on him and mechanicum and a another race (tryin not to spoil anything). Personally i think he knew and this is all still following a sort of plan he made. Maybe he is letting us do most of the work or maybe something is supposed to happen idk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1819238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forgeman Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 The theory I go by is that the Emperor planned the Heresy. When Horus is taken on his dream-quest while at Davvin he sees the vortex created by the Chaos Gods and the Emperor pauses, and then allows the nascent primarchs to be taken and scattered with the implication being that the Emperor coudl easily have stopped it but chose not to. Now, we know that Horus felt that he and thsoe who would become the other traitor primarchs would be betrayed by the Emperor so that he could be deified little suspecting the future he saw was not as a result of his confrontation with the Emperor. The Emperor, or the New Man, knows He needs to become the Starchild and I reckon the Heresy was just part of His long term plan to accomplish that goal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1819281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 Forgeman Posted Today, 06:15 PM The theory I go by is that the Emperor planned the Heresy. There is a problem with that. Although the Emperor was capable of foresight the accounts of the Siege of the Emperor's Palace state that although the Emperor had foresight, "the future was hidden from him this day", up until the point where Horus lowers his shields, the the Emperor "saw what must be done". It seems that the Emperor could not have planned the Heresy since he could not see far enough into the future. However, although this hasn't been retconned, it is quite old fluff and I'm expecting it to be cleared up explicitly in the HH series when we finally get to the Battle of Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1819345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koremu Posted December 24, 2008 Share Posted December 24, 2008 It's the usual cop-out with prescience in fiction. Read Dune sometime, Muad'dib mentions the same thing. Someone with Prescience can navigate the streams of probability, but there are circumstances where the outcome genuinely does hang in the balance. Muad'Dib called the phenomenon a 'nexus' - a place where prescience can tell you the possible outcomes, but can't tell you how likely each is. As for why the Emperor decided to fortify Terra at that point in time? He was expecting a revolt from a Legion. The Dark Angels Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1819418 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Kezef Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 .....What are you talking about? The Dark Angels had nothing to do with the reason the Emperor decided to fortify Terra. He was trying to break into the Eldar webway. I think he wanted to fortify Terra in case they tried to stop him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1821089 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Child-of-the-Emperor Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 After reading Flight of the Eisenstein I realized something that bothered me. The Imperial fists were en route to Terra to help fortify the palace. The Emperor himself called back the fists to make sure that the Imperial Palace was impenetrable, but why? Why in his moment of glory, when his sons were about to conquer the galaxy in his name and slaughter all their enemies, did he feel it fit to fortify his home? My theory is that the Emperor saw that Horus was going to turn and did Nothing. As powerful a Psyker he was, if he couldn't see that Horus was going to turn I would be surprised. I'd like to hear all of your opinions on the subject. This is how ive read it: "During the Great Crusade, the Imperial Fists acted as the strategic reserve of the Emperor's forces due to their ability to rapidly redeploy to battlefields aboard Phalanx. They made use of detailed planning and as such were soon found to be supreme city fighters and siege specialists. After several campaigns and thousands of conquered worlds, the Emperor returned to Terra to build a capital from which he could run his new empire. He took the Imperial Fists with him, set them up as his praetorians and charged Dorn with the construction of the Imperial Palace, something that didn't go unnoticed by the other Primarchs. Perturabo flew into a rage upon hearing that Dorn thought the Imperial Palace would be proof against assault by even as mighty siege-masters as the Iron Warriors and unleashed a torrent of vitriol and accusations so unfounded that the onlookers were dumbstruck. After this the two rarely spoke, neither Legion serving in the same campaign again. The Imperial Fists were ever at the Emperor's side and the Iron Warriors were part of Horus' vanguard." And i think your theory of the Emperor forseeing the Heresy is unlikely - Surely if he did he would have prepared better, and he did hesitate several times during the heresy still unwilling to believe Horus had fell. And also he Psyker powers came from the Warp, being the "raging storm" it was, the Warp Gods could easily have manipulated his visions etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-1900516 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Ming Posted January 16, 2010 Share Posted January 16, 2010 Warprat, you make a very interesting point. I like it. Plan:1) Unite humanity under one government on Terra. 2) Link former colonies to this government. 3) Create Primarchs to speed the crusade and entice Chaos to interfere (trapping them into the plan). 4) Allow Primarchs to create civil war. 5) Step aside to allow the empire to stagnate and grow psychicly. What doesn't kill humanity strenghtens it. Other Empires: 1) Eldar- Destroyed by Chaos, not a threat any more. 2) Choas- Now part of the plan, contain Chaotic forces within the Eldar ruins. 3) Orks- Not a serious threat. Stomp on and contain outbreaks. 4) Necrons- Ignore thier existance, until they can be dealt with. 5) Tau- To small to be a threat. 6) Tyranids- Something must be done. Reserve two legions and send loyal Primarchs to counter strike. While on the Golden Throne: 1) Play mortally wounded to enable suppessive government to control chaotic psychic growth process. 2) Build Immaterium sanctuary for Human souls using sacrificed energy of chaos possesed psychers. 3) Build a force in the Immanterium based on order. 4) Use this new force to hit and run against mankinds Immateral enemies and occasional material universe attacks. (The Legion of the Damned?) 5) Psychic strike at the Hivemind. Very long term, just the thing that you could create after trapping the void dragon on mars and guiding humanity for tens of thousands of years. Besides, I'm sure He knew that He would have had a bulls eye on His back as soon as He unified Terra. jlmb_123 Of course, the Emperor probably wasn't aware of the Tau, Necrons or Tyranids, I agree that the big E wasn't aware of the Tau yet, they were still less than simians (or whatever their equivalent would be). As for the Necrons, I read some where that the big E trapped the Void Dragon on Mars (can't remember where, I'm poor so most fluff I read is borrowed), so I think He would have planned for the Necron return someday. He might have seen the 'shadow in the warp' (?) that is the 'nids hive minds, if they were close enough to our galaxy (if all the galaxies that the 'nids travel to/through have the same rules and an empyrean), but I'm sure the 'nids would have been a little surprising. my 2 cents. Darn, just realized how old this thread is. *face palm* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-2249561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissah Posted January 16, 2010 Share Posted January 16, 2010 I think the Emperor knew it all and did nothing to stop it. He needed the Heresy to happen for his own selfish reasons. He let his favorite son Horus the best Primarch to ever walk the galaxy fall to CHaos and he did nothing to help him. The Emperor is the real traitor here, he abandonned his sons and soldiers and was selfish enough to destroy his favorite Horus. FOR THE GREAT LUPERCALL !!!!!!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/133053-was-the-emperor-in-on-it/page/3/#findComment-2249719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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