Battle for the Abyss: Not the greatest book ever...

[luckywallace]

Good point about the 'missed' mortal blow...

 

*SPOILERS for NIGHTBRINGER (the novel)*

 

 

Considering that Uriel Ventris managed to take the Nightbringer's scythe through his torso and shrug the wound off within about 30 seconds... Cestus is a bit of a wimp...

 

[Pyriel]

 

I'll just die here then. All my enhanced, genetically modified organs designed to stop my dying have been conveniently forgotten."

 

 

Well, it´s nothing new really. This together with power armour offering the protection of paper is Counters trademark. Happens again and again to the poor Soul Drinkers and Grey Knights in his other novels.

 

Reading counter, I´we found out, has to be made with a prepared mindset or you might end up disappointed.

 

Counters strenghts (imo) lie in other areas. In the second and third GK novels he gets better, not because he starts to write better fight scenes etc but because he writes less of the things he usually manages to mangle and instead adds more of a good storytelling.

[deus lo volt]

I'm not encouraging anyone to read the spoilers, but that was freakin hilarious brother Hastatus!!

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[horus-incarnate]

the take on the throne part...horus says it a few times in the 1st 2 books

so in ur face doubter lol

 

it cnt be worse then the decent of angels...now that book was just terrible

and who said fulgrim was bad...its wasnt bad its was just gut wrenchingly sickening

 

but as i do not have book yet i cant really say anything about it but ill have it this friday hopefully so after i have read it i will lend a less bias opinion.

[brother Hastatus]

I was just reading Augusts UK WD, and noticed something strange in the new releases section. For Battle for the Abyss, it says how a fleet is heading for Macragge, headed by the 'Splinter of Sorrows'. Looks like they changed the name at some point... Splinter of Sorrows sounds more like a Dark Eldar name.

[Pacific81]

*CONTAINS SPOILERS*

 

Although I agree with some of the points made above, I really think some of the criticism centred on this book is uncalled for.

 

First of all, much of the anti-BftA sentiments seems to be centred around "the marines from the legion I like didn't kick ass and kill everyone, or get a heroic death. Therefore this book is awful."

 

Now I agree in the sense that many of the characters in the book do not get the 'Abnett rousing and heroic death', pounded by cyclonic torpedos while engaged in life and death struggles etc, as we have seen in some of the other HH books, but I think this was a deliberate move on Counter's part and fecilitates how deadly space combat would be. You charge into combat with 10 other marines, you get stabbed in the eye - you don't beat them all and go home with the prom queen! I think it also gave this book more of a realistic, and less of a comic book feel, which would have been quite easy to do in the situation presented in this book - a handful of marines against a chapter sized marine contingent could have potentially had 'star wars' written all over it.

 

Furthermore, I think there was purpose behind the supposed cliche-driven character types in this book. Even when the main characters, all from different legions, are meant to be fighting on the same side, for the most part they find it impossible to do so without arguing and without fundamental disagreements in how it should be done. The arguments between the thousand son, and the space wolf for example, paint a bleak picture of the underlying relationships between the different chapters. They show the events of the heresy as something that was perhaps inevitable, and a schism that would have formed whether Horus had started the rebellion or not. Them overcoming this inherent distrust to fight for a greater good, and doing so knowing that certain death awaited and that their actions would not be known to the rest of their legion, I think is one of the most powerful story lines of the series so far, and shows a level of heroism beyond any shooting or fancy footwork skills!

 

One of my main criticisms of the book concerns the apparent inneptitude of the Word Bearer marines, who really should have made short work of the usurpers and seem to exist only as cannon fodder for most of the book.

 

However, I think the book is far from the stinker that a number of posts have made it out to be, and I hate to think that some people might miss out on what I thought was a worthy addition to the HH series.

[Ju'kosian]

**contains SPOILERS**

 

allright, fluffwise we already knew that the mission would fail, since I don't recall that the Word bearers really massacred the smurfs..

However I find it strange to say the least.. THat only a few loyal marines succeed in sabotging and even destroying such a vessel.

I believe that somewhere in the book before boarding that there's a 1000 astartes lined up before the "furious", so I guess there's a 1000 astartes onboard.. yet they get there ass kicked because they are just a bunch of idiots who can only say.. "The word is the truth" :) <_<

[JetfireUK]

I finished the book a couple of weeks ago and I thought that it was a fair book. Compared to Fulgrim it comes a close second and I agree with some posters here that it's not the worst book written. The Thousand Son character was well written. I also enjoyed the admission by the daemon which hinted that perhaps the emnity between the legions is being subtly manipulated by the warp. This hasn't been mentioned before and suggests that the Word Bearers weren't in as much control as they thought they were. This is something which hasn't been mentioned before, I don't think?

[Captain Bog-Bot]

Wow. I was really looking foward to this book, especially after previewing the first chapter and finally coming to a decision to play either SW's or UM's and choosing UM's. Ah well, even if the book is smegtastic, i'll still get it simply to complete the series. And im sure the folks at GW realize that most people will.

[brother Hastatus]

Pacific81: I agree with most of your points. The story line itself isn't bad, once you get into it a bit - not much happens for a while. Also, I agree that the division between the loyalists was good. But the actual writing of it just isn't great. The ending, for example. I wouldn't have minded Cestus dying if it was written slightly better, and not in the out of hand way it is.

 

And yes, the Word Bearers do come across as idiots. They could have killed the remaining loyalist ship, and lose half an hour, but save themselves a lot of hassle. Instead they let the ship follow them, trick them, board them and destroy them. The Word Bearers in Dark Apostle were far better.

[Zotias]

This book doesn't sound the best, but I'll probably get it along with Legion in a few days time.

[OwenCrute]

Weird. I've only read the first 3 HH books, but I liked Galaxy in Flames the best. Maybe it was just the description of an Exterminatus, but i don't think Counter deserved half the ragging he gets...

 

Oh well. Seems I'm doomed to unpopular opinion on thew Internet as well as IRL.

[brother Hastatus]

I thought Galaxy in Flames was good to, mainly anyway. But Battle for the Abyss isn't anywhere near as good as Galaxy in Flames, and even that isn't great compared to, for example, Legion.

[Corax_rg]

I must say, so far ive really enjoyed this book. I think that may be because its the first time the Thousand sons have been part of the main plot in a HH novel.

 

Im kinda biased.... :lol:

[Mister V]

Well, I'm reading it right now, and whereas Eisenstein/Fulgrim still remain my favourite (McNeill's Chaos descriptions rock), this one doesn't look too bad.

A big plus for including the Thousand Sons, love 'em.

 

 

[minirant]

But still, I'm waiting for the authors to pick up the proper, central storyline. Enough deviations, I want Tarvitz!

[/minirant]

[minigun762]

I'll add in my 2 cents.

The book wasn't horrible, but the previous HH novels, really the first 4 were superior.

 

Things I liked:

1) The naval/space element of the setting

2) Insight into the future traitor legions while they're still loyalists. The World Eater and Thousand Sons captains were easily the best characters I thought.

3) The description of the daemon who inhabits the helmsmaster at the end. I thought it was one of the better, more descriptive examples of daemonic possession I've seen.

4) The imagery of the Word Bearers, their icons, cathedrals etc.

 

Things I disliked:

1) The Word Bearers themselves were a bit "cannon fodderish". Not horrible but not as good as Dark Apostle.

2) The good guys should NOT have lived through the 1st space battle. Even with a timetable, why would the Furious Abyss not take an extra 20 minutes to blow up the last cruiser and escort?

3) The Ultramarine and Space Wolves characters were rather lacking. Only at the very end of the book aboard the Furious Abyss did I like the SW captain and I never really felt connected to the UM one. Then again, neither of these legions/chapters have ever been high on my list (just barely above the Dark Angels.

[Mister V]

Finished it.

 

Major (+) :

- ship combat (although no epic ship combat)

 

 

Major (-) :

- depiction of the hate of psykers... seriously, :cuss. Before, they were all fine with psykers, and right after Nikea everybody started to shout "ZOMG pysekrr!!11one" at the sight of any? Not believable. Besides, Mhotep used only "clean" psyker powers, without summonings and other crap.

 

Huge (-):

- why is this not about the most crucial event - the battle of Calth? why even bother to write about something else if you're not going to highlight the most important part?

 

Overall: not bad, not as weak as Descent of Angels, but likewise quite shallow and devoid of epic feeling (Legion at least has that epic feeling, although at the expense of credibility) - quite the opposite of what I'd expect from a book in the Horus Heresy series.

 

 

The biggest downside of all (and that is my gripe with everything since Fulgrim) is the lack of attachment to any character, simply because it's difficult to get attached to a character over the course of one short novel. They need to go back to the standards of the first four-five books. Maybe someone actually needs to tell them? Has anyone sent emails/talked to the authors? Maybe they don't realise what people want?..

[minigun762]

Huge (-):

- why is this not about the most crucial event - the battle of Calth? why even bother to write about something else if you're not going to highlight the most important part?

 

 

Yeah I totally forgot about this part!

I wanted to know more about the battle itself, not just the trip to the battlefield.

[Raptor1313]

Yeah...Descent of Angels was intresting 'til the end.

 

Counter has a problem with purple prose; a lot of the time his descriptions erred too much into the too-graphic-we-don't-need-ALL-this-excessive-detail zone.

 

The most interesting characters were the World Eaters captain and Mhotep. (Though I have a serious gripe with Mhotep's name; it just feels too...stock, almost. I get that the K-sons are supposed to have an Egyptian background, but I had flashbacks to the Mummy movie and that comic-relief sidekick going "EEEM HOOO TEP! EEEM HOO TEP!" and calling off a mob of zombies...).

 

The Ultramarines felt very stock, but on the other hand, the Ultramarines Omnibus is so interesting BECAUSE the main characters are not stock ultramarines. I mean, we did get a good look at how Ultramarines think, and they ARE poster children for 'by the book doesn't always work.' Of course, improvising doesn't always work, either.

 

So in that sense, I'm willing to buy that the Ultramarines were a bit stiff and had the depth of cardboard.

 

on the other hand, he's working with a decently-sized cast (two ultramrines, Mhotep, some space wolves, a handful of Word Bearers, some ship's crew...) so not everyone is going to get developed. Fact is, the more people you get, the less developed they are. One reason it was easy to get attached to Loken as a character was that he was pretty much THE main character in the first three books of the Heresy, and Loken had some depth (beyond 'I KLEEN MA BOLTEr, I DO MA STRATEGY! I KILL FER DA EMPEROER!') and that makes it easier to get into characters in general.

 

I feel that the Word Bearers were a bit much in the way of cannon fodder, but their rivalry is a fine example of how Chaos often works. Regular marines with rules and such? Work your way up the chain of command. Chaos? Make a vacancy in the fluid, mutated TO&E with a bolter or chainsword. Chaos in a sense is very much about personal power and aggrandizement. Did anyone really expect Chaos marines to work in lock-step and care about their battle-brother? They may work together, but it's for self-interest only. They do get kudos for most everything else but their cannon-fodder traits. Chaos makes you ambitious. The more ambition blinds you, the worse things get.

 

Regarding Brynngar's hatred of Mhotep:

Dude, when the Emperor says Psykers Are Bad, Don't Be a Witch, then you agree with the man. Unless you happen to be Magnus, who has kept his own council on Nikea's trial. Space Wolves by their very nature seem to be pretty superstitious, and they prefer the direct way. Sorcery and a much more reserved approach (which is what the K-sons do) is the opposite of this. Plus, bear in mind Mhotep is directly, now flagrantly, violating an order of the Emperor Himself. Is it any wonder they all regarded him suspiciously? The only thing that pretty much kept him from being executed was the fact that they were, y'know, chasing a big freakin' ship that was going to do some Pretty Terrible Things.

 

All in all...

Counter's still got some work to do as an author. The book wasn't terrible, but I won't be re-reading it any time soon. Skraal and Mhotep made the book an interesting read (hey, first time we get a World Eater as a character; that alone is interesting), along with the Captain lady. (Not everyone loves Space Marines...). Chaos was Chaos...and a decent time was had by most.

[noblesavage]

Thoughts?

 

Brother hastatus, my thoughts are that you have not shown that you could have written it better.

[Ju'kosian]

The most interesting characters were the World Eaters captain and Mhotep. (Though I have a serious gripe with Mhotep's name; it just feels too...stock, almost. I get that the K-sons are supposed to have an Egyptian background, but I had flashbacks to the Mummy movie and that comic-relief sidekick going "EEEM HOOO TEP! EEEM HOO TEP!" and calling off a mob of zombies...).

 

Regarding Brynngar's hatred of Mhotep:

Dude, when the Emperor says Psykers Are Bad, Don't Be a Witch, then you agree with the man. Unless you happen to be Magnus, who has kept his own council on Nikea's trial. Space Wolves by their very nature seem to be pretty superstitious, and they prefer the direct way. Sorcery and a much more reserved approach (which is what the K-sons do) is the opposite of this. Plus, bear in mind Mhotep is directly, now flagrantly, violating an order of the Emperor Himself. Is it any wonder they all regarded him suspiciously? The only thing that pretty much kept him from being executed was the fact that they were, y'know, chasing a big freakin' ship that was going to do some Pretty Terrible Things.

 

I had the same experience when reading Mhotep's name :lol:

 

About Brynngar.. I did'nt like him.. IMO he looked like a drunk.. :D I expected more depth in that character...

Mhotep proved that you can use sorcery for good things. Too bad the big E did not see it that way.

The enmity between the two (and their legions) is proof that not all the things are as they should be between the astartes..

Brynngar seems not to bother with killing fellow astartes unlike cestus ..

[brother Hastatus]

Thoughts?

 

Brother hastatus, my thoughts are that you have not shown that you could have written it better.

 

;) Erm... Well, you're not meant to take it too seriously... I did a light-hearted take on the last scene, with the odd joke thrown in. It was never meant to be that well written. If you can't read it without being annoyed that someone has written a joke, then I suggest you don't read it in the first place. And I never directly stated that I could write it better, just that I wouldn't make some of the rather obvious mistakes he made.

[Hasoroth]

This goes with Descent of Angels, Fulgrim, and Galaxy in Flames as one of the worst books I've had the misfortune to read.

[Bad Monkey]

How do folks saw this and thought id wiegh in with my 2 cents,

 

aside from the few grammatical errors, bouts of repitieion andlack of depth that seem to crop up in mr Counters Books, id say this is one of his better offerings. Not as good as Galaxy in Flames, but certainly up there. I enjoyed it.

 

And if you really belive this is one of the worst BL books you have ever read, you are one of the lucky ones who has evaded Ben Counters Soul drinkers....easily the most poorly concived and childish novels i have read, loads of "Space marine Smash" moments. That is a book that lacks depth. Thankfully borrowed it off a mates so didnt need to waste any money on it.

[Hasoroth]

Ah I should have clarified, worst Horus Heresy books.

 

Worst BL books I'd have a monster list.