Battle for the Abyss: Not the greatest book ever...

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@eloies

see my other posts about russ's orders concerning magnus, cause i have repeated it several times by now. it is easy to paint russ in a bad way though...

 

wolf lord kieran

[c-wrex]

re-read parts of "False gods" now. Magnus came to Horus when Horus was in the sperpent loge dieying. Magnus tell Horus to stay loyal to the emperor. All by the means of sorcery.

 

Later we get info from Fulgrim the "The wolf of fenris" has been sent to get Magnus back to Terra. In other fluff we learn that Russ was sent cuse Magnus used Sorcery to tell the emperor what Horus was doing cuse the astropath was glowing dim and unrealiable. He's spell broke the webway thingy that the Emperor was working on. He gets pissed, "Tell someone to fetch Magnus to me! He has done something I did tell him to not use! And he speaks rubbish! Horus would never turn from me!" So insteed of only connteact Magnus himslef he sends one of Magnus brothers, one that evrybody knows don't like magnus at all. And Horus hears of this and send a little message to Russ. russ get's pissed when he hear that Magnus uses sorcery and attempts to kill him and IGNORING what their father had said.

 

 

...wut?

[randian]

Librarians with their "pure" psychic powers were ok, sorcery was not. Though how thin a line between the two is it is sometimes hard to tell.

While the characters, in their ignorance, conflate the two, I think the difference is pretty clear. Psychic powers are direct mental manipulation of the energies of the warp. Sorcery is entreating with intelligent entities of the warp for knowledge and psychic powers. Even the strongest psyker (like Magnus) will become unavoidably corrupt when practicing sorcery. He may avoid it for a while, or believe himself to have the upper hand, but in the end those entities will have their due.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

thanks randian, that is a good answer to a questionj i have myself been wondering, sorcery vs psychers.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Hrvat]

Librarians with their "pure" psychic powers were ok, sorcery was not. Though how thin a line between the two is it is sometimes hard to tell.

While the characters, in their ignorance, conflate the two, I think the difference is pretty clear. Psychic powers are direct mental manipulation of the energies of the warp. Sorcery is entreating with intelligent entities of the warp for knowledge and psychic powers. Even the strongest psyker (like Magnus) will become unavoidably corrupt when practicing sorcery. He may avoid it for a while, or believe himself to have the upper hand, but in the end those entities will have their due.

 

I went to check it myself, now that you mentioned it.

Sorcery doesn't have to include treaties with warp entities.

 

Psychic power = inate abilities

Sorcery = psychic power + incantation - certain words or sets of word can help a psycher foruc more of the warp energy, or reshape his inate ability to take another form - the only problem is how one comes across these incantation is iffy. I guess if you stumbeld upon it while transcripting some ancient tample it would be very different than getting from a mouth of a summoned daemon.

 

So in itself sorcery doesn't not need to be evil.

[Pacific81]

Thats what I thought...

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Librarians with their "pure" psychic powers were ok, sorcery was not. Though how thin a line between the two is it is sometimes hard to tell.

While the characters, in their ignorance, conflate the two, I think the difference is pretty clear. Psychic powers are direct mental manipulation of the energies of the warp. Sorcery is entreating with intelligent entities of the warp for knowledge and psychic powers. Even the strongest psyker (like Magnus) will become unavoidably corrupt when practicing sorcery. He may avoid it for a while, or believe himself to have the upper hand, but in the end those entities will have their due.

 

I went to check it myself, now that you mentioned it.

Sorcery doesn't have to include treaties with warp entities.

 

Psychic power = inate abilities

Sorcery = psychic power + incantation - certain words or sets of word can help a psycher foruc more of the warp energy, or reshape his inate ability to take another form - the only problem is how one comes across these incantation is iffy. I guess if you stumbeld upon it while transcripting some ancient tample it would be very different than getting from a mouth of a summoned daemon.

 

So in itself sorcery doesn't not need to be evil.

 

couldnt you argue that the creaters of the ancient temple got it from the mouth of a daemon? so while you yourself dont bargain with daemons, in using the ancient temple discovery you would unwittingly be dealing with daemons?

because everything must come from somewhere, nothing just appears magically. (this could be broken down to a chicken vs egg thing)

 

wolf lord kieran

[Dazzo]

One could argue that the use of rituals and special words may in fact be a hell of a lot more healthy than channeling warp power straight through your brain. Just a thought.

 

And I wasnt particularly enamored with Battle for the Abyss, it was ok but nothing new.

[Redrandy93]

Brothers,

 

I finished reading Battle For The Abyss and did not think it was that bad. I actually enjoyed it. Why did the Word Bearers turn to choas? Did I miss reading it in the other HH books or we have not yet seen a seperate novel from their view point yet? In addition I wonder if there will be another novel picking up where this one left off concerning the fight for Macgragge? We know the next HH book will be Mechanicus and after that Tales of Heresy. What do the rest of my battle brothers think? :(

[Senseilord Ashahara]

There's a couple of little hints here and there about tthe Word Beaers in the other HH books but the old established fluff stands that shamed and enraged by the Emperor chastising them for their devotion to Him, Logar and his Legion looked for others who were more worthy and open to worship.

Thusly I find some of the relgious language in the post Flight books alittle annoying.

[Eirik_Xenobane]

Lorgar was deeply religous and saw the Emperor as a messiah, every time he conqered a world he erected cathedrals and monasteries to the Emperor's divinity. The Emperor never wanted to be a god and reprimanded Lrgar for wasting time on such displays of devotion. he then found Gods that accepted his worship.

 

The great irony is that a religous movement spread throiugh the fledgeling Imperim just prior to the heresy that claimed the bEmperor WAS a God. After the heresy, when the Emperor was put on the golden throne he was no longer in a position to declaim this movement and it became the relifion of the Imperium.

 

By rebeeling against the Emperor, lorgar created the divine being he turned from. It's an interesting irony.

[randian]

One could argue that the use of rituals and special words may in fact be a hell of a lot more healthy than channeling warp power straight through your brain. Just a thought.

There are many examples of psykers using their abilities for centuries or even millenia without being corrupted by Chaos. The use of rituals ("sorcery") and words of power, on the other hand, appear to make corruption unavoidable.

[randian]

While Lorgar's story is well known, his descent into madness (like many of the Daemon primarchs) seems lacking. "Daddy said no" seems rather low on the "1001 justifications for evil" list, don't you think? Worship of Chaos isn't a mere changing of the name on the door. It involves acts of utter depravity and evil that, I presume, Lorgar would have found utterly revolting before the Emperor's rebuke. The Book of Lorgar exalts these acts as means of displaying piety and reverence. For a Word Bearer, evil isn't a means to an end, it's the end in itself. That's scary.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@randian

have you ever met anybody that lost their faith in their respective god(s)? the broken shell of a person that leaves them numb, but can very easily turn to anger. that is what happened to lograr IMO. a being that lived his life on his belief in the emperor, then had it forcibly crushed. lograr probably fell into despair, and then wondered what was so wrong with himself that his god didnt want him.

now enter the chaos powers. always quick on a good (?) oppurtunity, they fell on lograr like a 4 course meal of bacon. they teased him, bribed him, coaxed him, then gave him his ultimate desire: the acceptance from a seemingly divine power. after that, they owned him, mind and soul.

 

nothing scarier in this world than a religious fanatic. they have the means of carrying out their actions, and they have their god(s) acceptance in their action. now think of a space marine in that mindset.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Eirik_Xenobane]

@randian

have you ever met anybody that lost their faith in their respective god(s)? the broken shell of a person that leaves them numb, but can very easily turn to anger. that is what happened to lograr IMO. a being that lived his life on his belief in the emperor, then had it forcibly crushed. lograr probably fell into despair, and then wondered what was so wrong with himself that his god didnt want him.

now enter the chaos powers. always quick on a good (?) oppurtunity, they fell on lograr like a 4 course meal of bacon. they teased him, bribed him, coaxed him, then gave him his ultimate desire: the acceptance from a seemingly divine power. after that, they owned him, mind and soul.

 

nothing scarier in this world than a religious fanatic. they have the means of carrying out their actions, and they have their god(s) acceptance in their action. now think of a space marine in that mindset.

 

wolf lord kieran

 

Bear in mind, Lorgar fought a civil war on his homeworld, a bitter, bloody conflict because he believed a messiah would deliver his world. That messiah came in the form of the emperor, only to spurn his devotion. a man you killed for, a man you went against the faith of your birth for and fought a civil war for turns around and says I don't want your worship.

 

Its a hard thing to take.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Wow, i must have forgot the civil war part...that makes his abondonment even more painful and crushing.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Mr.(Space)Marine]

And thats why lorgar turned. I do remeber reading somewhere that for months after the big E got angry at Lorgar, Lorgar hid away in his chambers and only allowed Kor Phaeron (or erebus...cant remember...) to give him counsel.

 

Its kinda like that kid that does everything humanly possible to impress his dad, only to get yelled at for doing the wrong thing.

[Redrandy93]

Brothers,

 

Thanks for filling in the events concerning Logar and the Word Bearers. ;)

[Eloies]

nothing scarier in this world than a religious fanatic. they have the means of carrying out their actions, and they have their god(s) acceptance in their action. now think of a space marine in that mindset.

 

wolf lord kieran

 

 

Heh, reminds me to much of Sara Palins. She's ready to go to war aginst Russia "if god wants it" and she is sure that she can hear and execute god's will. So a space marine don't feal that scary any more if the republicans should win the election.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

lets keep this to the Horus Heresy...things there are grim enough with a debate of modern american politics coming up. this place is an escape for me.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Eirik_Xenobane]

One thing has bugged me about comments regarding Abyss, people criticise the characters for being too 2-dimensional. I think this is one of Abyss' GOOD points.

 

Astartes are weapons, trained, indoctrinated, created and designed to prosecute war. They are the ultimate warrior, they are not built to think, not built to question orders, not built to dwell on their place in the great scheme of things. They are like other elite units in history like the Persian Immortals, the Spartans, the Waffen SS and USMC.

 

The prevoius books have been full of free thinking characters questioning orders and their place in the Imperium. To me this is atypical of the Astartes, in Abyss we see a few of the legions as they should be! The Word bearers are indocrinated, fanatic and zealous, the Ultramarines aree dogmatic and devoted to their sense of duty, the World Eaters are frenzied pyschopaths slaughtering to feed their anger whic is almost like an addiction and the Wolves are superstitous, bellicose and convibced their way is the best band only way.

 

I think this book gives us a view of the ordinary astartes where other books focus on indivudal characters that are atypical of the majority of their legions.

[Arschbombe]

I just finished it on a flight yesterday. Not too shabby. Not especially great either. I didn't like the stormtrooperification of the word bearers either. But they were there as foils for the main characters and not much else.

 

I kept expecting some sort of crisis where the WE and TS characters had a crisis when they learned that their legions had sided with Horus in the heresy. I expected Mhotep to see his fate and the fate of his legion and betray the others. I expected Skraal to get turned when he was running around on the Abyss. Their little story arcs made me wonder how these marines were chosen for their assignments. Would Skraal and Mhotep stayed loyal if they had been with their legions when Horus revealed himself?

[Eirik_Xenobane]

I just finished it on a flight yesterday. Not too shabby. Not especially great either. I didn't like the stormtrooperification of the word bearers either. But they were there as foils for the main characters and not much else.

 

I kept expecting some sort of crisis where the WE and TS characters had a crisis when they learned that their legions had sided with Horus in the heresy. I expected Mhotep to see his fate and the fate of his legion and betray the others. I expected Skraal to get turned when he was running around on the Abyss. Their little story arcs made me wonder how these marines were chosen for their assignments. Would Skraal and Mhotep stayed loyal if they had been with their legions when Horus revealed himself?

 

Magnus was loyal to the Emperor untill the Wolves raised prospero, then he had no choice but to join Horus. The Sons where a very loyal chapter, sure they efied the decree of Nikea, but this wasn't out of treason, Magnus believed that the Emperor madea bad call and continued his prctice of sorcery believeing he could change the Emperor's mind once he had proven it's value.

 

Skraal may of gone over if sked by member of his own legion, but he wasn't about to change sides at the wod of a traitor from another chapter who had slaughtered his squad.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

having finished the book, I found it appalling.. the worse of the series.

First off all.. No primarchs presence.. which by itself is very bad since we all like to see Primarchs in action.. that's what HH is all about!!!

Second, i think the story arc is absurd!!! A big spaceship created to go virus bomb a moon so that the moon spreads meteorites over a planet? . bah... I'm not a fan of ship battles.. then the ship was crucial in the plan..but they dropped in anyway.. seemed it wasn't so crucial anymore...

I rather see the assault that words bearers made in calth.

The villain zadkiel is portraited as dumb.... taking unnecessary risks.

The ultramarines died too easily and were shallow characters . not once I felt anything towards Cestus, the main character.. I was rooting for the world eater captain!!!!

Space wolves character was cliche...

then the writing... he repeats the same cliche over and over.... example.. spcae wolves making slights that where ignored by the thousand sons captain. He must have wrote that at least 5 times in the book.

I thought Descent of Angels was bad, but this one takes the prize... I hope next one is better...

[Arschbombe]

Magnus was loyal to the Emperor untill the Wolves raised prospero, then he had no choice but to join Horus. The Sons where a very loyal chapter, sure they efied the decree of Nikea, but this wasn't out of treason, Magnus believed that the Emperor madea bad call and continued his prctice of sorcery believeing he could change the Emperor's mind once he had proven it's value.

 

 

Well, yeah. But I was thinking since he was divining his destiny with the powers he could see what was happening. He saw terra, he saw the palace transformed. I thought perhaps he would have also seen the role his legion played and decide to act in accordance with what he then perceived his destiny to be.

 

The author touched on it near the beginning when Zadkiel spoke to Mhotep and hinted at what was going on.

 

 

 

Second, i think the story arc is absurd!!! A big spaceship created to go virus bomb a moon so that the moon spreads meteorites over a planet? .

 

No, the ship was supposed to break the moon apart, causing the meteorites to destroy the orbital fleet, and use the meteorites as cover from the surface laser batteries to get close enough to the planet to then unleash the world killer.