Battle for the Abyss: Not the greatest book ever...

[Zengar]

Glad to know that it's poo so I can avoid it.

 

I'm sad. I keep hoping Abnett might write a UM stories but he likes his iron snakes and white scars.

 

Well, at least the next alpha legion book will be neato.

 

Also, watch for connections between Titanicus and Mechanicum when they come out. That's all I'm gonna say. Abnett and Mr. Mcneill collaborated on the book.

[HJL]

i just finished the book and thought it was pretty good, the arguement that they were steriotypical charecters is stupid, what do you expect, daisy chain making world eaters? logical and reasonable space wolves? ofcourse not, they are not steriotypical, they are all the same because they all have the same personality traits due to their genetic alterations.

 

 

the book was good, the main charecters gave their lives for the emperor, i must admit, im pretty sick of people complaining because the good guys dont come out and live happily ever after, its not hollywood for gods sake, its the 30th millenium where life is horrible and cruel and the best you can hope for is a glorious death.

 

i would say saving the ultramine chapter ticks that box.

 

it flowed nicely and was well written, although i dare say that the language might have left some people a little stumped.

 

oh and he constantly missused the word saturnine, it means slow....

[Oddsbodkins]

Well I just read Galaxy in Flames and I didn't think it was nearly as badly written as people have been saying, although there were 'overlapping fields of fire' aplenty. :P So I must say I'm quite looking forward to reading this one.

[Pacific81]

Glad to know that it's poo so I can avoid it.

 

Zengar.. Zengar... ZENGAR !!

 

There, have I got your attention? Good. :)

 

If one thing is obvious from this thread, is that the HH books are very much a case of 'horses for courses', and that any viewpoint expressed here is always going to be subjective.

 

You will read comments from people who loved this book, and those that they hated it and everything inbetween and for a variety of different reasons.

 

However, I think perhaps the ideal outcome is for you to pick up this book and make up your own mind! Bear in mind there has yet to be any serious comment (and this applies to any of the other HH books) proclaiming, "I wish I hadn't wasted some of my life reading this book."

 

Imagine - you could love this book, sleep with it under your pillow for the next year, and there is the possibility that you might miss it?

 

I can't think of how you can even contemplate such a thing :)

[Oddsbodkins]

Well, I read the book this afternoon. And enjoyed it. Which I guess basically sums up my attitude towards pretty much all the HH books; I read them, enjoy them, and then leave them and forget about them :D

[Hasoroth]

Glad to know that it's poo so I can avoid it.

 

Zengar.. Zengar... ZENGAR !!

 

There, have I got your attention? Good. :)

 

If one thing is obvious from this thread, is that the HH books are very much a case of 'horses for courses', and that any viewpoint expressed here is always going to be subjective.

 

You will read comments from people who loved this book, and those that they hated it and everything inbetween and for a variety of different reasons.

 

However, I think perhaps the ideal outcome is for you to pick up this book and make up your own mind! Bear in mind there has yet to be any serious comment (and this applies to any of the other HH books) proclaiming, "I wish I hadn't wasted some of my life reading this book."

 

Imagine - you could love this book, sleep with it under your pillow for the next year, and there is the possibility that you might miss it?

 

I can't think of how you can even contemplate such a thing :)

 

Much as I dislike BftA, I agree with Pacific, its your money and you may find it well spent.

[Weiss]

I'm struggling to get past Page 40... It just seems far too stilted, with far too many things that just don't make sense (and I haven't even finished the second chapter). I can only hope it gets better from now on...

[Pacific81]

Weiss. As a fellow member of TGC I am using my mind control techniques to force you to read this book. Better now? :D

[Weiss]

;) No, but I'm feeling urges to collect space-faring beardies... *shakes fist" :)

[brother Hastatus]

I'm struggling to get past Page 40... It just seems far too stilted, with far too many things that just don't make sense (and I haven't even finished the second chapter). I can only hope it gets better from now on...

 

The book does improve beyond that point. It takes a while to get going, but get through the first part, and you'll begin to enjoy it more. It's what I found, anyway.

[Weiss]

Heh, it's currently sitting somewhere in my flat... I might pick it back up at some point... maybe.

[WingsOfTheFalcon]

oh and he constantly missused the word saturnine, it means slow....

 

True, but in the context of a sci-fi novel it's had to feel aggreived as there is no current accepted form for objects which originate from Saturn except 'alien'. So I forgive him! :tu:

[Hyperion]

Actually it doesn't mean 'slow'. From Dictionary.com:

 

sat·ur·nine

adj.

1. Having the temperament of one born under the supposed astrological influence of Saturn.

2.

a. Melancholy or sullen.

b. Having or marked by a tendency to be bitter or sardonic: a saturnine expression on his face

[HJL]

i stand corrected!

[Captain Antonius]

It took me two days to read "The Battle for the Abyss". In just a few words: I thought it was ok, not great but not bad either.

 

I also thought that the World Eater was one of the better characters in the novel. I really loved how the author described how he lost himself to the carnage in the first boarding action...how he just went back to his basic need for slaughter. That just how I felt when I read about Angron descending on the Loyalists on Istvann III. I also loved how the World Eater captain felt justified by Antiges death and how it brought him closer to the Ultramarines. I think it was there that I felt that this Marine was just that... a Marine in a brotherhood of other Marines. Maybe I'm thinking into this too much by I thought that Skaar's choice to wait and hide in the bowels of the ship instead of just trying to kill as many as possible showed us that he was a thinking Marine and not just a mindless slaughtering machine. Ok, so occasionally, he became a mindless slaughtering machine.

 

Anyway, I felt that the book brought us closer to the final battle at Terra, rather than backwards like Decent of Angels. As a fan of the Fists, its the story I'm really waiting for. Can't wait to see how they write about 6 separate legions ( I think I have that right; Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, White Scars, Sons of Horus, Iron Warriors, Emperor's Children) fighting on the ramparts of the Emperors Stronghold. What a story!

 

But I digress... the novel is worth your time even if you find the little things get to you. You will know more Canon Fluff about the legions of the Great Crusade than when you started. (I didn't know there was a great Saturn Fleet, or that there was a great armory aboard a ship with hundreds of Dreadnought hulls, or that Virus Bombs had to be strapped to the bottom of a great Battleship instead of fired from her torpedo ports)

 

Just my two cents!

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i too just finished the book, and found to be okay. not fulgrim or legion, but much better than descent of angels. much better.

 

few things i want to say on the book though (some have already been said, i am either agreeing just wasting time)

1. counter used "Son of XXX" too many damn times. i was getting very sick, partially annoyed by the constant use of that. If i wrote a paper for publication and repeated a single word or phrase SO many times, i hope somebody in the editing department would slap me once or twice to regain my senses. honestly.

2. as a loyalist to the Emperor, a Son of Russ (pun intended) I lost ALOT of respect for the Ultramarines. Cestus was, in my opinion, a weak willed commander and a completely unable to lead the Marine Coalition. I was begging that either Brynngar or Skraal would slap him and take command. The Thousand Sons were ordered by the Emperor, the leader of mankind, to abandon sorcery. When Mhotep was discovered using sorcery, he should have been executed right then. But Cestus betrayed a oath-brother to protect a space marine who disobeyed the Emperor's commands. Cestus wanted to waste the time for a trial to declare a guilty man who already proved his lack of innocence guilty. By disobeying the Emperor's commands, Cestus brought shame upon himself and his Legion.

3. I liked Skraal. he was much more than the usual portrayal blood thirsty "wolverine berserker rage" world eater. he had his blood thirsty moments, but kept such moments in check and actually raised my respect for the pre-heresy world eaters legion. they werent all nucking fut jobs.

4. the name mhotep. this has already been said, but reminded me of "the mummy"'s main villians mind controlled hordes. hilarious and sad at the same time.

5. i liked brynngar. i only wished he had picked his friends better.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Pacific81]

++CONTAINS SPOILERS++

 

What other marine legion can you think of though, that could have kept the rest of that rabble in line?

 

Remember that the marines of the great crusade were not the zealots exhibited by some of the chapters in the 41st millenium - certainly the Ultramarines I can imagine being quite pragmatic. The fact was that Mhotep (can't remember the film so I'm not 'cursed' by that name) saved the lot of them on a number of occassions, and for Cestus to execute him could well have ultimately lead to defeat (and who knows, perhaps the loss of the heresy?)

 

As it is Cestus did a remarkable job of keeping the warring factions from each others throats (for the most part), and when it came down to it showed he was prepared to die, even though it would be 'unsung and unremembered' in the history of the Imperium.

 

As for Brynngar, what an excellent character, and I'm sure he got the death he wished for :tu:

[Jarulek]

I've avoided this thread for two weeks to maintain my objectivity. I was looking forward to this book since the day it was announced. And now I'm finished reading it...and it's <DELETED BY THE INQUISITION>e!

 

I may be biased, but the Word Bearers were just canon fodder. I seriously laughed when Cestus took down 4 Word Bearers and 1 Veteran in the chapel. And why is it that all the Word Bearers got dropped by single well aimed shots and the UM's, SW's and WE's always got shot in the thigh (Ben Counter must really love that part of the body). Anybody noticed that most of the loyalist characters got killed indirectly accept for Antiges? All Word Bearer characters got killed by the main loyalist characters.

And what about that part in the end with the chaplain threatening to shoot Zadkiel because he was tired of him getting pushed around? The chaplain was barely mentioned in the story apart from 1 or 2 instances!

And when your Battleship is under attack by assault craft the last thing that comes to mind is to dispatch troops to the side that's being attacked.

One marine taking on a Dreadnought?

A stealthy infiltrating World Eater who should have been a lobotomized killing machine? Surviving for two weeks on an enemy vessel?

 

I liked Brynngar though. He represented what a Space Wolf should be like. His visions in the end were the only parts I liked after page 50.

 

I liked, no loved all the HH novels 'till now. I even liked Descent of Angels. DoA was a let down because it lead to something taht didn't happen, but it was a good read 'till the ending nonetheless. I also liked Galaxy in Flames, but I guess the characters were already described in the previous two novels so they didn't require any depth anymore.

 

Btw, somebody mentioned that he expected the Furious Abyss to go down because the Word Bearers lost the Battle at Calth. The Word Bearers ALMOST won. After they bombed the sh*t out of Macragge and rid the system of all life.

 

I'm not one that posts frustrating and negative posts. But this book was such a let-down...

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

++CONTAINS SPOILERS++

 

What other marine legion can you think of though, that could have kept the rest of that rabble in line?

 

Remember that the marines of the great crusade were not the zealots exhibited by some of the chapters in the 41st millenium - certainly the Ultramarines I can imagine being quite pragmatic. The fact was that Mhotep (can't remember the film so I'm not 'cursed' by that name) saved the lot of them on a number of occassions, and for Cestus to execute him could well have ultimately lead to defeat (and who knows, perhaps the loss of the heresy?)

 

As it is Cestus did a remarkable job of keeping the warring factions from each others throats (for the most part), and when it came down to it showed he was prepared to die, even though it would be 'unsung and unremembered' in the history of the Imperium.

 

As for Brynngar, what an excellent character, and I'm sure he got the death he wished for :)

 

what rabble are you speaking of? the only problems that existed between the Marine Coalition was between Brynngar and Mhotep. the World Eaters were there for 2 purposes (1) to die in battle scenes as the SW and UM were lacking numbers and (2)....okay, you got me. i am stuck at 1. no just kidding. Skraal was a awesome view into his Legions mentality, and always a ironic icon (a loyal marine from a traitor legion chasing a traitor marine ship alongside loyal marines). there was NO friction or rabble to take care of. the WE would have followed anybody if they were guarenteed a fight.

 

THe Marines protrayed so far in the HH are zealots of the Imperial truth, which denounces sorcery and religion. The fact Cestus kept Mhotep alive amazed me, and made it funny in a twisted way that a Ultramarine Captain would ignore Imperial Decrees in order to accomplish his mission of chasing down traitor Marines....but by breaking Imperial Decrees, doesnt he turn on the Imperium he is supposed to protect? paint it in any light you want, certain things are not to be broken, regardless of the outcome. such as the Emperor's attempt to protect mankind from the warp. but a single UM captain believes he knows better. the self-rightoues always scare me the most, willing to break any rule to get their determinded result. I have always found the Imperium (and the SMs who closely support it) a bit too tyrannical, which is why i love the wolves so much. they are, in my opinion, the most humane of the SM chapters and the most loyal to the original beliefs of the Emperor.

 

and Cestus is a unsung hero? thats flawed. the Docks the Saturnine FLeet departed from, to chase down the Furious Abyss, would have it recorded that the UMs took the fleet. the wreckage of the Wrathful would have shown it arrived around the Abyss. putting those two simple clues together, it is easy to figure out what happened.

and more importantly, if your not willing to die to save your family, let alone homeworld and Legion, you dont have the dedication of being a Imperial SPace Marine. so lets not play up Cestus deeds. two real heroes are Brynngar (who went on this mission for his friend and brotherhood) and Skraal (tagged along for brotherhood....and a fight). these two could have ignored the UM plight, and went their separate ways.

 

oh well, my two cents.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Pacific81]

Wow.. its amazing how two people can read the same book and get such different impressions from it!

 

Well, that says something for the nature of subjectivity. I agree with you totally about the irony of Cestus's position - putting aside 2 centuries of the 'imperial truth' and the rulings of the council of Nikea to allow Mhotep to live. I suppose we must assume he viewed this as the lesser of two evils, when considering the treachery of the Word Bearers and the potential destruction of his legion. But, I think in summary to this, the point you have made opens up a very large can of particularly voracious worms - at what point does an application of force become unnaceptable in view of the protection of yourself or your way of life? How low is it possible to sink in order to ensure that the 'greater good' is reached? If you know the answer, be sure to PM some of our world leaders and let them know <_<

 

and Cestus is a unsung hero? thats flawed. the Docks the Saturnine FLeet departed from, to chase down the Furious Abyss, would have it recorded that the UMs took the fleet. the wreckage of the Wrathful would have shown it arrived around the Abyss. putting those two simple clues together, it is easy to figure out what happened.

 

Again, this is a subjective point and there is no way to know for sure, but I'm afraid I don't agree with you here. First of all, the odds of locating the wreckage of a ship in amongst the immense empty gulfs of space (especially considering what happened to the ship and the Abyss) would be extremely small. That of course assumes that there would be dedicated search vessels attempting to such a task - extremely unlikely considering the total war that would soon embroil the whole of the Imperium.

 

As I have said before, I thought that BfTA was quite astute in that it revealed the underlying stresses between the various legions. I think more than anything it showed that even though they all fought for the benefit of the Imperium and for the Emperor, really they all expressed quite different 'cultures', and in some cases these were incompatable. This ranged from the outright animosity between the Sons of Russ and Magnus, to an underlying tension between both them and the World Eaters and Ultramarines. I remember several points being made about how Cestus chided one of his men for making disparaging remarks about the World Eaters when they were practising - something that seemed barbaric to their eyes. This is reinforced by the actual coming of the Heresy itself - Marine would not have fought Marine had there not been grounds for mistrust and resentment between them.

 

As a final note, the sad fact is that in writing books such as this, it is impossible for the author not to step on a few 'toes' so to speak. The 'toes' in this sense were the Word Bearers, who fell like scythed wheat throughout the tale, only offered a marginal absolution by the strength of their leader (and even he was found to be ultimately lacking). However, I would describe this book as a 'good romp', and despite some of its innacuracies and sometimes favourtism, I found to be thoroughly entertaining - you could not describe this book as being dull or uninteresting, and that for me is the most important thing :lol:

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

one thing i found funny was that all bolter fired were ap1, while space marine armor provided a 6+ save against chain-axes.

 

okay, maybe finding the wreckage of the Wrathless is far fetched, but it is still know that the Saturnine FLeet was taken by Cestus in pursuit of the Abyss. I am pretty sure 1 Marine amongst the UM legion can put the destruction of the Abyss and Cestus together. hopefully.

 

while the UMs did make disrespectful remarks about the WE, the UM also allowd the 1 Marine that defied the Imperial edicts to live. so the actions of the Um are now suspect in my book. they seem to care more for Legion and homeworld than for the rules they are supposed to enforce. The decision to stop psychi activity in the SM legions were from the Emperor, not some corrupt official acting in his name. there is no doubt or leeway on such a edict if you count yourself loyal to the Emperor. Absolute loyalty. anything else is heresy.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Gamb1t]

blind faith is a dangerous thing.

 

i was disapointed with the book... one of the worst of the series so far... and i liked his last book.. it was ok. this one felt disconnected ... it didnt flow for me at all.

 

come back dan!!!

[Notlage]

Firstly, I liked Galaxy in Flames and Fulgrim quite a bit....at least they weren't side stories, and progressed the heresey....

 

Anyway, did anyone read Counter's Grey Knight series? The first book was amazing, and it kinda went downhill from there. Point being: the best parts of BftA, I believe, is Mhotep and his battle(s) with daemons...and I couldn't help but be reminded of how the previously mentioned GK series. It's like, he had practice in this arena, and he did well: Mhotep was by far the most interesting part of the book, and the one battle scene that is done nicely is that with Wsoric (or whatever his name was).

 

Anyway, I put it just ahead of DoA.

[Raptor1313]

I think you can put down Cestus' desire for a trial of Mhotep as a sign of his dedication to due process. Recall that originally, he just survived a long-odds fight against daemons, and was slapped into the brig under suspicion. Recall also that Mhotep abided by the decision and stayed in the cell out of his own free will. Now, a pragmatic villain would do so when there's no hope of escape, but a good guy who wants to think the best of his prisoner will assume it's a sign that the prisoner is innocent. After all, only the guilty need hide, right?

 

I also don't think it's a hell of a leap to say that Ultramarines would stand on due process. Cestus is, then, actually upholding the law.

 

Regarding the marine friction...

 

It's so very understandable. Think about it. I, for example, live in the South of the USA. Well, a lot of small towns tend to be very insular; it's the kind of place where you drive a little under the speed limit so the cops don't speed-trap you because "You ain't from 'round here, are ya?" and the like. On the other hand, Southern people also get a rep for being hospitable, barefoot, and fond of firearms and roadkill.

 

The former is a mix of stereotype and fact. (For the record, I don't have a southern accent, I wear shoes all the time, I don't mind outsiders, and I like guns. So out of stereotypes, I'm a sample of about a 50% match). Now, when you see people you've got stereotypes about, you're going to tend towards noticing things that confirm your views of them, and probably ignore anything that doesn't. It's a human cognitive bias, and I really doubt the space marines did or even could beat that out of themselves.

 

So, to step away from barefoot shotgun-wielding twanging rednecks for a moment, where's that leave us with the marines? Everyone thinks that the Ultramarines are by-the-book, Space Wolves are hard-drinking vikings, World Eaters are bat-crap crazy, Thousand Sons are scheming sorceres, and the list just goes on. It's harder to find someone who bucks the stereotypes like Cestus when he points out that, hey, while the World Eaters are a little nutso, they're doing what World Eaters do and it makes perfect sense to them. (As an aside, you can argue that realistic training has its merits).

 

If you want to talk about the trials of leading that kind of a marine coalition, just look at how international or cross-culutral communications and task groups perform. Answer: doesn't always work well. Cestus at least got the mission done and kept his people from killing each other. At the end of the day, it was more or less enough.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

blind faith is a dangerous thing.

 

i was disapointed with the book... one of the worst of the series so far... and i liked his last book.. it was ok. this one felt disconnected ... it didnt flow for me at all.

 

come back dan!!!

 

blind faith? blind faith is faith in something without actual proof. the proof of the dangers of sorcery were known to the emperor and (most of) the primarchs. they knew entities lived in the warp and crossed over through psychic activity. thats why warpcraft was disallowed to the SM legions.

 

i dont wish to come off as a fanatic, but it seems to me the ban on sorcery was a of rule that must be followed, because the breaking of that rules had a high chance of resulting in terrible tragedies.

 

to dismiss that rule just seems arrogant in the extreme, seeing as the Emperor did nothing without a reason.

 

oh, i too live in the South, florida to be exact, which is a "northern" state once you get to orlando. i have never skinned a animal, i have all my teeth and never looked at a sister with lust. so just because i would follow the rules of the Emperor by the letter, doesnt make me a hick or blind fanatic, it just shows that its my belief that the emperor knows what he is doing. oh, i dont speak with a twang either.

 

and if your equating real world leaders to the leaders of the SMs, that doesnt work because as the various SMs might differ on how they enforece the emperor's will, they share the basic beliefs of the Imperium, and the goals of the Emperor. the various real world leaders dont have that connection.

 

wolf lord kieran

 

wolf lord kieran