Battle for the Abyss: Not the greatest book ever...

[Senseilord Ashahara]

With regard to Mhotep; the Thousand Sons _were_ Loyal. They had Traitor status thrust apon then.

Okay so they carried on using 'sourcery'. They tried to warn the Emperor about Horus and got the Wolves set on them for their trouble.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

With regard to Mhotep; the Thousand Sons _were_ Loyal. They had Traitor status thrust apon then.

Okay so they carried on using 'sourcery'. They tried to warn the Emperor about Horus and got the Wolves set on them for their trouble.

 

if you are told not to do something, you:

a. listen to the guy running the show, who has more experience than you and probably is doing all this for a reason

b. keep doing what you want, as you obviously know better than a guy who has been around for thousands of year.

 

 

if you follow option A, your a loyalist.

if you follow option B, your a traitor

 

now apply this to the thousand sons, where do they fall?

 

wolf lord kieran

[c-wrex]

Kieran, consider:

 

Option a: blindly follow any and all orders, regardless of contradictory evidence or pressing concerns

Option b: take the actions that are necessary when the difficult choices must be made

 

One is a zealot, the other is the lesser of two evils. You decide.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Kieran, consider:

 

Option a: blindly follow any and all orders, regardless of contradictory evidence or pressing concerns

Option b: take the actions that are necessary when the difficult choices must be made

 

One is a zealot, the other is the lesser of two evils. You decide.

 

okay, when a guy proves to you that creatures exist in the warp beyond your understanding, and that using psychic powers was a sure way to get their attention, thats not zealotry. thats just common sense.

when loken encountered a daemon in Horus Rising, he was made aware the the upper eschelons of command knew of this threat.

the use of the sisters of silence showed the emperor was combating the daemons of the warp.

 

so, daemons are known to exist in the warp, and actions are taken against them. in the mean while, you are told not to attract their attention by using psychic powers. this is done for your own good and the safety of those around you. Gulliame (or however you spell his name) proved with his codex astartes that removal of psychers from the SM ranks was to be temporary, a small sacrfice seeing the dangers that untrained psychers present. this is learned because of his inclusions of psychers in the codex, we know that the UM primarch was nothing but loyal to the emperor.

 

now, knowing this, the thousand sons still refused to stop their practices. thats why they are traitors to the Imperial Cause.

 

free will is wonderful and powerful, but at times even the most rebellious person must see how his actions effect others.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Pacific81]

Wolf Lord Kerian, as is common with one of the dark side, you always seem to speak in absoloutes :whistling:

 

I believe the point that c-wrex was making was that the eventual fall of Magnus and the TS was extremely unfortunate - fate played a cruel hand in turning them against the Imperium.

 

Firstly, yes the council of Nikkea had spoken against the use of sorcery, but the TS were not alone in being reprimanded by the Emperor for some reason or other. The World Eaters, Night Lords and yes even the Space Wolves had been reprimanded for their barbaric actions in subjugating worlds. The Emperor had given them a 'slapped wrist' as it were, as you would a misbehaving child, however this is a long way from ordering the execution of them, or casting them out as traitors. Note that even at the gates of the Imperial palace, during the final battle, it was only right at the end that the Emperor could bring himself to slay Horus.

 

Then Magnus learnt of the attempted subjugation of Horus by the powers of the warp, and the events of False Gods. Was he to stand by and let him fall while this happened? No, he took it upon himself to try and save him. So to when he eventually found out about the impending Heresy, what was he to do in this position? The moral imperative in both of these cases is clear - Magnus viewed it as a lesser evil to go against the Emperors edict on sorcery, than to potentially see the Imperium fall. So I believe if you view his actions by there 'intent' rather than through the end result, then really it is hard to fault the Thousand Sons. We of course have the benefit of hindsight, although that was something that even Magnus could not benefit from at the time.

 

Secondly we have the actual effect of Magnus' actions. Going on the HH artbooks, the Emperor was in the process of constructing a webway within the vaults of the Palace of Terra. Unaware of this, Magnus attempted to contact the Emperor, and while doing so, penetrated the psychic shielding of the tunnel and releasing the denizens of the warp to attack the palace. So, although Magnus had been correct in trying to warn the Emperor, the end result ultimately could have been responsible for the failure of Emperor's grand schemes and ultimately his internment on the golden throne.

 

Horus had learned of these events, and now firmly on the path of treachery, realised that even though the TS has erred, they still stood on the side of the Imperium and this needed to change. He ordered the Space Wolves to Prospero, knowing full well that rather than returning Magnus to earth, that the long-standing feud between the two brothers would lead to war. Obviously the TS would never hand their Primarch over to the SW, and so the Thousand Sons moved to side with Horus and against the Imperium, as the most beautiful world within the Imperium was ruined and tens of thousands of marines died in the resulting bloodshed.

 

So, I would say that ultimately the Thousand Sons were guilty by association with Horus, but it was not in their plans to usurp the Emperor as were the plans of Horus and several of the other legions who sided with him. I think looking at the choices Magnus had to make, the fact that he made the wrong ones when viewed in hindsight does not alter that they were made with the best interests of the Imperium in mind. This is why their fall to Chaos is perhaps one of the greatest tragedies of the Heresy, and certainly one of the most bitter.

[Danius Smithe]

All I can say, in a matt-damon-esque voice;

 

"Ben Counter".

 

The grammar and punctuation aactually gets worse further through the book.

Worth a read if you're reading the entire series, but if you've skipped a few, skip this one, unless you want some cool World Eater or Thousand Son reading.

[BrotherAtrox]

With regard to Mhotep; the Thousand Sons _were_ Loyal. They had Traitor status thrust apon then.

Okay so they carried on using 'sourcery'. They tried to warn the Emperor about Horus and got the Wolves set on them for their trouble.

 

if you are told not to do something, you:

a. listen to the guy running the show, who has more experience than you and probably is doing all this for a reason

b. keep doing what you want, as you obviously know better than a guy who has been around for thousands of year.

 

if you follow option A, your a loyalist.

if you follow option B, your a traitor

 

now apply this to the thousand sons, where do they fall?

 

wolf lord kieran

 

Do the Sons of Russ really have room to argue such a point? In truth few of the founding chapters do. Many chapters deviate greatly from the Emperor's plan. By your logic the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars should be declared traitors. After Nikea it eventually became okay for psykers to be employed, and even the Space Wolves have them now. Why are you so quick to isolate yourself from friends?

[parrot]

This was viciously bad. It's rare that I actually try to return a book but this one sucked so bad I did. I wish we could clone Abnett and Graham McNeil and make them re-write the every book.

[c-wrex]

Kieran, consider:

 

Option a: blindly follow any and all orders, regardless of contradictory evidence or pressing concerns

Option b: take the actions that are necessary when the difficult choices must be made

 

One is a zealot, the other is the lesser of two evils. You decide.

 

okay, when a guy proves to you that creatures exist in the warp beyond your understanding, and that using psychic powers was a sure way to get their attention, thats not zealotry. thats just common sense.

when loken encountered a daemon in Horus Rising, he was made aware the the upper eschelons of command knew of this threat.

the use of the sisters of silence showed the emperor was combating the daemons of the warp.

 

so, daemons are known to exist in the warp, and actions are taken against them. in the mean while, you are told not to attract their attention by using psychic powers. this is done for your own good and the safety of those around you. Gulliame (or however you spell his name) proved with his codex astartes that removal of psychers from the SM ranks was to be temporary, a small sacrfice seeing the dangers that untrained psychers present. this is learned because of his inclusions of psychers in the codex, we know that the UM primarch was nothing but loyal to the emperor.

 

now, knowing this, the thousand sons still refused to stop their practices. thats why they are traitors to the Imperial Cause.

 

free will is wonderful and powerful, but at times even the most rebellious person must see how his actions effect others.

 

wolf lord kieran

 

First off, It's Guilliman. I at least thought the members of this forum new the characters in the space opera we all follow.

 

Secondly, did Mhotep not strain his body and mind almost unto destruction to banish the warp filth that assailed them in this book (whether it was a good book or not)? Twice.

 

How was including psykers into the Codex being loyal to the Emperor, who expressely forbade their use, altogether? True, many of the legions, your own favored pups included, continued to carry forth the psyker into battle. Doesn't that make them disobediant, and therefore, moderately disloyal?

 

What horrendous crimes were committed by the Thousand Sons (my second fav legion, by the way, after my wonderul Salamanders)? Aside from the spell to alert about the heresy, which was a good thing, if done in haste maybe.

 

What if the Emperor had decided that it was to risky to have the astartes engage in hand to hand combat, for fear they'd all fall to Khorne? Do you think the sons of Russ, or many other legions, would have ceased going toe to toe?

 

And what of the actions of the non rebellios person? The rule following sycophants who have thought nothing of simply following orders? Seems like those types have done more harm, in 40k land and the one we all live in.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@pacific81

a. i speak in absolutes because i am a firm believer that the "rules" are put in place for a reason, whether or not i know of the reason, for my own good. i do believe the "rules" should be followed unless they are proved to be harmful or just plain stupid. so, unless a rule is completely idiotic, i am usually in favor of it.

b. i do believe the fall of the TS was tragic, but like the tragic heroes of literature, they fall due to their own hubris.

c. my history professor tried to teach his students that to unbiasly judge a person, you must put yourself in his place and see what he saw. since i am not a incrediblely powerful primarch psycher, that is tough in this cause but when i see headstrong people like russ and the khan following the rules, i got to wonder why is the "barbarians" of the group did, why didnt magnus?

d. the emperor sent russ, and probably some sisters of silence, to return magnus to terra so he could deal with them. horus, already traitor but waiting for the right moment to act, altered the Emperor's orders using his status as warmaster.

f. i have never heard of the emperor diciplining the world eaters, night lords or the wolves for their actions when taking planets. the night haunter was to be disciplined by a council, but that was made of of his fellow primarchs, i didnt know the emperor was involved in this action. thw world eaters and space wolves made the terran governors and politicians protest, but i think the emperor didnt care much, seeing how bloody his rise to power was. the only other legion know of that the emperor made public disaproval was of word bearers, as they were taking too long in peacefully converting worlds.

 

@danius smith

that is awesomely funny.

 

@brother atrox:

the return of psychers in the SM Legions was by the words of the Codex Astartes, not the Emperor. IS this the right decision, who knows? But then the Emperor was on his golden la-z-boy, Guilliman and the High Lords took control of the Imperium. Are they following the EMperor's will, or has the time since Emperor's "death" and the present day since a departure from his will? probably, and that is another of the great ironies of 40k. if the emperor suddenly got off the golden throne, would he be happy with what he saw. i doubt it.

 

@c-rex

a. i am sorry my incorrect spelling of a primarch i have never cared for was so troubling. i'll whip myself for the terrible mistake. :D

b. yes, he did. he proved that while he was a traitor to the Imperial cause, he wasnt evil.

c. see what i said to brother atrox above. is it what the emperor wanted? only he knows.

d. since the pre-heresy actions of the SM legions are only being revealed in any detail at this point, nobody can really answer that question. something tells me that GW will paint the TS in the most tragic light possible, possible showing them as loyalists up until magnus's plea for aid on prospero, just to highlight their tragic/heroic status.

e. trying to say that fighting in CC and using the Warp can be equal is just nuts. the emperor should he was willing to use almost any weapon in his conquest of the galaxy, until they proved more harm then beneficial. so if he decided that psychic powers were not to be used, he must have had some overwhelming reason to outlaw them. the emperor's rise to power is covered in blood, so for him to turn on a powerful weapon like psychic powers is significant.

f. it seems to me that your labeling anybody who follows the rules a sycophant. i think maybe your admitted favor of the thousand sons is making you biased, just as my love of the wolves makes me view them as evil.

 

and to all:

since i have seen the terms "your beloved pups" or "sons of russ" being used by people against me, let me explain briefly why i love my space wolves. the 40k galaxy is a terrible place to live, for while it contains beauty, it also has death and destruction on a completely terrible scale. in this place, foward thinking is frowned upon, a brutal and repressive regime is mankind's hope of survival, and then you have the space wolves. they are barbaric, but can show great kindness. they have shown respect and admiration of the imperial guard, and protested the actions of the Inquisition and the Imperium. they have a honorable code they live by, and seem to treasure life. they can be merciless killers, but unlike many space marines, have yet to completely lose the spark inside them that makes them human. (i always like the salamanders because of this)

 

all that said, i dont this conversation will actually go anywhere, so lets try to focus on the book, and not each other. i have made what i think and hope to be statements that show i am not a unthinking sycophant, but merely hold a differing opinion than yourselves.

 

wolf lord kieran

[c-wrex]

Kieran, I truly enjoyed our little banter. Interesting points on your side, and new views for my own. Sweetness.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

cool, one thing i hate about using the Net (and phones to for that matter) is i cant tell how serious/angry/sarcastic a person is being.

happy to see this one was just right.

 

wolf lord kieran

[BrotherAtrox]

I think there is a very interesting underlying discussion here about what makes someone a human and the nature of psykers, but it seems that will have to be saved for another time.

[Pacific81]

Good post Wolf Lord Kieran... its often said that arguments are often either ones of fact, or ones of value. Regarding the latter, I think its obvious that this differs from person to person and therefore they can alter the story is interpreted- although I'm sure no-one thinks that you are an unthinking sycophant in any case!

 

Its quite funny, I was reading a summary of GenCon which has just been on in the UK. One of the veteran GW people there (I forget which one) was talking about the origins of the Horus Heresy. Apparently, when the epic-scale 'Adeptus Titanicus' boxset was under construction, the company did not have the time or resources to develop more miniatures to go alongside the Marines. The solution? Make half the marine models in a different colour plastic, and name a battle the 'Horus Heresy' to explain the situation!

 

Its amazing to think how things have gone on from there, and what started as just a footnote has developed into arguably the most powerful and emotive story in the 40k background!

[brother Hastatus]

@Pacific81: That's pretty wierd how they came up with the Horus Heresy. It's funny how little things like that can develop so much and change things so greatly.

 

But I wonder what 40K would have been like if that decision to make it like that hadn't been made?

[Vassakov]

I found this book to be of a poorer standard than I had hoped. The SW and UM characters in particular were apallingly badly cast - as a loyal son of Russ, I can appricate Byrnngars criticsm of Mhopet and Cestus. The thing is, although SW Runepriests are to all intent and purposes psykers, the manner in which they use their "gift" is very different. They use psychically charged runes and runic carved talismans to harness "Fenris' natural powers," and through those call on the Warp to predict the future (casting the Runes) or unleash the wrath of Fenris on the enemy (Storm Caller.) However, the belief of the SW is that it is their own link to Fenris, not the Warp, that is doing these things. They might be wrong, but belief is a powerful notion. Perhaps hypocritically, they deplore "Sorcery" such as the kind the Thousand Sons use and (quite rightly, as it turned out) believe it is the first step on the road to corruption. This, however is not explained at all in the book and therefore may leave those with limited knowledge of the Wolves beliefs wondering on the actions of the SW.

 

The Word Bearers were pathetic. One of these days, I'll read Dark Apsotle and see if it is a different interpretation of them, cause this and the BA series portrayed them as OTT, camp pantomime villians, better suited to a 60's Batman episode than Gothic Sci-Fi. Same with the UM... just naff characterisation. Even Dead Sky, Black Son had better Marines in it. /End Rant.

 

I liked the World Eater and Thousand Son, they of all the characters were done justice (like I said, Byrnngar could have done with some SW background - I thought he was alright, but I know the fluff for them already.) Skraal (apart from having a slightly silly name) was well written as a Berserker teatering on the edge of damnation - the scene between him and Zadkiel on the Abyss was excellent, as we know full well the events playing out across the Galaxy as the WE begins to realise that he has nothing left but honour and hate. Mhotep, on the other hand seems to know full well how events are eventually going to play out, and the interaction between him and Byrnngar has left me hungary for the Fall of Prospero.

 

Overall... could do better. Still, I suppose Goto could have written it. Doubtless that would have had even more glaring fluff faults...

[Primarch Corax]

I don't think you are all aware that GW said that all stuff written in the HH books replaces known fluff.

[Pacific81]

Indeed.

 

Although, note that the next books McNeil and Abnett are writing revolve around the destruction of Prospero, with the former writing about the battle from the TS side of things, and the latter writing from the Space Wolves perspective.

 

More than anything, this goes along way to reinforcing the subjective and revitionist nature of history. Easy to forget we are reading about events which happened beyond the dim and distant past of the current timeline, events shrouded in mystery and legend - I wish that people would remember this rather than throwing their toys out of the pram with regards to things such as the thickness of their favourite legions armour!

[Mr.(Space)Marine]

More than anything, this goes along way to reinforcing the subjective and revitionist nature of history. Easy to forget we are reading about events which happened beyond the dim and distant past of the current timeline, events shrouded in mystery and legend - I wish that people would remember this rather than throwing their toys out of the pram with regards to things such as the thickness of their favourite legions armour!

 

I wholeheartedly agree, and it is this reason that I have been much more open to the HH books that the majority says are bad--in fact the only one I haven't really liked is the Battle for the Abyss, the rest have been good to varying degrees.

[Hrvat]

f. i have never heard of the emperor diciplining the world eaters, night lords or the wolves for their actions when taking planets. the night haunter was to be disciplined by a council, but that was made of of his fellow primarchs, i didnt know the emperor was involved in this action. thw world eaters and space wolves made the terran governors and politicians protest, but i think the emperor didnt care much, seeing how bloody his rise to power was. the only other legion know of that the emperor made public disaproval was of word bearers, as they were taking too long in peacefully converting worlds.

 

Emperor did decide to discipline World Eaters it is just he sent Horus to do it, who was already corupted. Night Lords were also to be disciplined but the eruption of the heresy prevented that from happening. About the Space Wolves being disciplined I don't know, can't recall any such instance.

 

 

@brother atrox:

the return of psychers in the SM Legions was by the words of the Codex Astartes, not the Emperor. IS this the right decision, who knows? But then the Emperor was on his golden la-z-boy, Guilliman and the High Lords took control of the Imperium. Are they following the EMperor's will, or has the time since Emperor's "death" and the present day since a departure from his will? probably, and that is another of the great ironies of 40k. if the emperor suddenly got off the golden throne, would he be happy with what he saw. i doubt it.

 

Well actually Emperor didn't ban psychers but sorcery, after all the Librarians from several legion were the ones that achieved the compromise. Librarians with their "pure" psychic powers were ok, sorcery was not. Though how thin a line between the two is it is sometimes hard to tell.

 

 

Hrvat

[esinhorn]

That last part about Nikea with Sorcery and Psych is under debate We'll find out more with the Prospero book.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i thought sorcery=psychic powers to these people...other than a few sentences, i havent found much about the council of nikea. i cant wait for the new sw/ts book to show more on this.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Eloies]

About the whole thousend sons thing. Did't Russ got orders from the Emperor to take his brother back to terra? And then Horus conntact Russ when he his on his way to Prosspero and tell Russ why he was there to collect Magnus? So upon hearing that he's brother had used sorcery he went bananas?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

from what i remember, after learning in his warp dream that magnus would stay on the emperor's side of the upcoming civil war, horus altered the orders given to russ.

 

when russ was initially told of magnus's action, i have no doubt he howled for magnus's head. only the counsel of the emperor quieted him. when the new orders came, i doubt russ care at all.

 

wolf lord kieran

[Eloies]

re-read parts of "False gods" now. Magnus came to Horus when Horus was in the sperpent loge dieying. Magnus tell Horus to stay loyal to the emperor. All by the means of sorcery.

 

Later we get info from Fulgrim the "The wolf of fenris" has been sent to get Magnus back to Terra. In other fluff we learn that Russ was sent cuse Magnus used Sorcery to tell the emperor what Horus was doing cuse the astropath was glowing dim and unrealiable. He's spell broke the webway thingy that the Emperor was working on. He gets pissed, "Tell someone to fetch Magnus to me! He has done something I did tell him to not use! And he speaks rubbish! Horus would never turn from me!" So insteed of only connteact Magnus himslef he sends one of Magnus brothers, one that evrybody knows don't like magnus at all. And Horus hears of this and send a little message to Russ. russ get's pissed when he hear that Magnus uses sorcery and attempts to kill him and IGNORING what their father had said.