Retinues

[Custodian Athiair]

Hi i was reading through the 5th Ed. Rulebook

 

and i found out why retinues are better than squads

 

now heres why

 

it says in a squad (if you attach the IC to a squad) the IC can be picked out in combat

 

but if you have him in a retinue

it says the character cannot be picked out in combat

 

it is so awsome

 

tell me if i am wrong but i belive that i am right

 

thanks

 

Athiair :P

[Bloodstone]

Not true, if attached to any unit, an IC cannot be picked out in combat. They will function as one unit irregardless.

 

Scratch that, i havent read 5th ed yet.

[hack n slash]

Your right they can't be picked seperatly in cc if with a rutine but remember that rutines are becoming rare these days and only a few armyies use them anymore, so enjoy it while you can.

[Cyber_Wulf]

indeed. retinues are awesome but dont automatically trawl through codex after codex looknig for the word retinue. many armies employ these rules without calling them retinues. The retinue rule states that a retinue is when a character cannot leave or join other squads as long as the retinue is alive. therefore, marine command squads, guard command staffs and tau honour guard all fall under retinue status without being names as such.

 

this would mean that space marine masters etc, guard captains and tau ethereals can all be protected in combat pretty well (altho the wound allocation rule still applies to the unit as a whole given that the IC is in the unit, he is elligle for allocation)

[Souchan]

Which makes me feel sad to be a Templar(for a moment, because I love all the other stuff we do get 5th) as we have Retinue's, but our codex has a specific caveat stating they still fight CC according to Independant Character rules and the FAQ makes no mention of it. Then I realize how "accept" has changed as well as the IC in reserves rules and I get over it :)

[pryor]

Thanks for the clarification Cyber_Wulf 'cause in my first two games of 5th edition my captain was killed by being singled out from his terminator retinue (which I didn't think was the case but the GW staff said different). Now the next time this happens I can say "Not today!" and hit them on the head with the 5th. WHAP! :)

[Custodian Athiair]

great

thats awsome

 

can't wait to use that when my friend goes i attack you Master with Khârn because he's an IA

and then i say no he's in a Command Squad he counts as being in a ret.

 

ha

 

brilliant

 

Athiair :D

[pryor]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I have just noticed in the codex that a character that is leading or attached to a squad does not stop being a independent character for the purpose of close combat; it's on pg21.

My captain dies still :o

[Souchan]

Ah the same as us Templar's then.

[InquisitorPhred]

I don't see how that allows them to be singled out. The rules for what it means to be an 'Independant Character' aren't in the Codex. The Codex doesn't say he can be targetted in combat. It just says to apply what the rulebook says under the IC rules. The rulebook says they can't be targetted.

 

Codex just says "Do not stop applying the rules in the IC seciton of the main rulebook to this model"

 

IC section of the main rulebook says "This model may not be singled out in combat."

[nighthawks]

IC section of the main rulebook says "This model may not be singled out in combat."

IF the squad is a "retinue" as described. if it is or counts as an IC attached to a squad, then the IC fights in close combat as a seperate unit still (base to base, 2", divided attacks, etc...)

[vahouth]

The retinue rule states that a retinue is when a character cannot leave or join other squads as long as the retinue is alive. therefore, marine command squads, guard command staffs and tau honour guard all fall under retinue status without being names as such.

 

Concerning the marine command squads, i don't recall them counting as retinues. Indeed in the newest SM like codex which was the DA, the entry for

command squads said only that u can have 1 unit for each IC in ur army, but they are not supposed to be together.

The only retinues i can think of are, the Cenobyte Serbitors for BT, Wolf Guard Bodyguards for SW, Servitors for Techmarine, Squad upgrades

for Ork SCs, Tyrant with VW buggies,Wh & DH retinues and Smurf Honor guard...etc

[nighthawks]

The retinue rule states that a retinue is when a character cannot leave or join other squads as long as the retinue is alive. therefore, marine command squads, guard command staffs and tau honour guard all fall under retinue status without being names as such.

 

Concerning the marine command squads, i don't recall them counting as retinues. Indeed in the newest SM like codex which was the DA, the entry for

command squads said only that u can have 1 unit for each IC in ur army, but they are not supposed to be together.

The only retinues i can think of are, the Cenobyte Serbitors for BT, Wolf Guard Bodyguards for SW, Servitors for Techmarine, Squad upgrades

for Ork SCs, Tyrant with VW buggies,Wh & DH retinues and Smurf Honor guard...etc

C:SM p. 21, "space marine characters" #2 "The character is a member of the unit and may not leave it."

-doesn't this count as a retinue/bodyguard, etc... by the definition in the new BBB, P.48 retinues "...special unit that they cannot leave during the game"?

[vahouth]

The retinue rule states that a retinue is when a character cannot leave or join other squads as long as the retinue is alive. therefore, marine command squads, guard command staffs and tau honour guard all fall under retinue status without being names as such.

 

Concerning the marine command squads, i don't recall them counting as retinues. Indeed in the newest SM like codex which was the DA, the entry for

command squads said only that u can have 1 unit for each IC in ur army, but they are not supposed to be together.

The only retinues i can think of are, the Cenobyte Serbitors for BT, Wolf Guard Bodyguards for SW, Servitors for Techmarine, Squad upgrades

for Ork SCs, Tyrant with VW buggies,Wh & DH retinues and Smurf Honor guard...etc

C:SM p. 21, "space marine characters" #2 "The character is a member of the unit and may not leave it."

-doesn't this count as a retinue/bodyguard, etc... by the definition in the new BBB, P.48 retinues "...special unit that they cannot leave during the game"?

 

U are correct, but given the changes in the SM chapters in general, starting with the DA, IMHO this is going to change...

We'll have to wait and see what will happen in the new SM codex.

Certainly BA and DA don't have retinues for the ICs.

[Whoopxi]

Which is great to a certain degree when Azrael suddenly lunges forth into an assault while his command squad just unloads plasma death or assaults another unit at the same time.

[Cyber_Wulf]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I have just noticed in the codex that a character that is leading or attached to a squad does not stop being a independent character for the purpose of close combat; it's on pg21.

My captain dies still :)

 

however...now heres the ultimate clincher. an independent character does NOT actually class as an independant character whilest joined by a retinue. in fact the rule states that while in a retinue a character counts as an UPGRADE character. hence if u arent an independant character, u dont follow the "seperate unit" rule therefore may do whateva a normal sergeant can do in a space marines squad. <_<

 

the reference is under retinues. i cant find my book atm but its at the bottom of the page with all the rules for independent characters joinging units.

[Silent Shadow]

an independent character does NOT actually class as an independant character whilest joined by a retinue. in fact the rule states that while in a retinue a character counts as an UPGRADE character.

 

I was going to say that, which means an IC is technically like a sergant, whom we all know cannot be picked out in combat, so that is like giving him an extra 5 wounds for the enemy to wade through. (Just imagine Azrael and his squad with their 4+ invun all around :D )

[Trajan]

But which armies has the retinue rule as its stands now? Current marine dex, templars, tau and daemon hunters?

 

-Trajan

[Souchan]

Templars don't get it(and I think nilla marines have the same wording, but someone would need to check, but I believe it was confirmed higher up), as I mentioned before, the section "Black Templar Characters" has a specific mention that those attached to or leading a Command squad still count as IC's for the purpose of close combat. The faq's don't counteract this rule and it's wording perfectly counteracts the retinue rule.

 

I believe guard and witch hunters and probably dark eldar have the retinue rule as well as the mentioned Tau and Daemon Hunters.

[Mordekiem]

Souchan, I think Templar do have retinues.

 

The Templar codex and the BRB make it clear that the command squad is indeed a 'retinue'.

 

The Templar codex says the IC is still an IC in an assault.

 

The BRB says an IC with a retinue counts as an upgrade character. So yes, the chappy or marshall is still an IC. But an IC with a retinue that becomes an upgrade character and hence untargetable even in CC.

 

The rules are not mutually exclusive. The Templar codex is worded for 4th ed, not 5th, but they still work together.

[Souchan]

Well I am not trying to say they don't have retinue's as that is most certainly what a command squad is, but as the FAQ has not addressed the wording of how to use BT IC's, how I read the situation is

 

BT IC+ COmmand Squad----> Retinue rules------> Gets overridden by statement that even with a command squad they still count as IC's, afterall they stopped doing that due to the retinue rules, but now the codex says they still need to be handeld as an IC(ie fight as a seperate unit as thats what it means to be an IC in CC).

 

I know the sentence was written for 4th, but as it is written, it indeed still works fine in 5th, in fact moreso as in 4th there were no retinue rules and that sentence was merely a clarification. I read it this way because I don't treat as 100% overruling the codices, they still defy it where their rules counteract 5th's ones, fortunately the FAQ's help clearing up most of that, but this one hasn't been countermanded.

 

Hope that explains why I don't apply retinue rules to my BT's then(my loss, I know).

[Agrab]

there seems to be some very wishful thinking here: a retune is very specifically designated in a codex, anything else, EVEN IF IT ACTS AS A RETUNE, is not one, so they do not fit into your hopeful no CC isolation

[Cyber_Wulf]

i think Agrab needs to read the definition of retunies on page 48. note the word retinue only ever appears in brackets, and that it is also reffered to as a bodyguard. Also note that the very DEFINITION statement of a retinue is, "characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during a game"

 

unfortunately for the tempalr player above, in 5th editino codex overides rulebook. so if BT chars can still be picked out, then they can be picked out, even in retinues. which is a shame tbh =/

[Brother_Dan'l]

It's part of the "new edition vs old codex" problem. Some armies have Command Squad/Bodyguard/Retinue/Honor Guard units that if purchased for an IC he can't leave. These are the "Retinues" that the 5e rules are addressing. But some of us have been saddled with CS/B/R/HG units that don't require the IC to be attached. These poor beggars CAN be singled out and killed in CC even when leading that unit.

 

So a 'Nilla Marine Captain and his Command Squad can waltz up to a Greater Daemon and, after the big beastie kills a few basic slobs, watch the Captain pound on it with his Thunder Hammer with complete impunity. Should BA/DA and a few others attempt the same feat of heroics you'll have one dead Captain before he even starts to swing. Doesn't seem quite right does it? But that's the joy of new rules and old armies.

[Agrab]

i think Agrab needs to read the definition of retunies on page 48. note the word retinue only ever appears in brackets, and that it is also reffered to as a bodyguard. Also note that the very DEFINITION statement of a retinue is, "characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during a game"

 

unfortunately for the tempalr player above, in 5th editino codex overides rulebook. so if BT chars can still be picked out, then they can be picked out, even in retinues. which is a shame tbh =/

 

 

So, if my retinue died i could not attach/join another unit?