Brother Richard Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 Without doing a cut and paste from the Lexicanum, here is a little background fluff for those who didn't know. Crimson Fist were suffering badly from an Ork WAAARGH in the Declates system. Black Templars answered the call for aid. Both the Fists and Templars sustained heavy casualties as the odds against them were often five to one, yet the chapters earned battlefield renown and are forever heroes of the Declates System. These battles are known to the Crimson Fists and Black Templars as the Declates Crusade. After the battle, Troops from both Chapters "exchanged" iconography and often fought in mixed squads. Black Templars painted their left hands red, and Crimson Fists painted a Templar cross onto their right knee. This unusual gesture of unity helped establish a tight bond that steeled the resolve of the brave warriors involved. Here I present for your viewing pleasure my first troop completed. I will add a few Crimson Fist troops into the troops in the next few squads. I plan on adding a few CF to a few squads, and maybe even a few full troops/squads of solid fists. Here are my questions: What am I limited to? Can I have a Dev Squad of CF? Can I have a Scout Squad of CF? Can I have CF Scouts in my BT Squads like neos? If I did would they have access to the normal CF armory for scouts or would I have to limit them to BT neo shotguns and bp's? If I remember right CF are limited to one less heavy support and one less fast attack due to chapter traits, but I lack knowledge beyond that. Is there something else I forgot? PS: I know that most anything is possible for apoc. I am more concerned about local games/tourney's. Thanks for your input. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackKnight1239 Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 Okay, which codex are you using? Personally, I would use the BT one, as the new Marine Dex will mess this all up. As you seem to want to keep the army competive, here's what I suggest: Black Templars- Larger Crusade Squads, maybe a few bolters in other squads, The Emperor's Champ is a must Crimson Fists- Smaller, heavy weapon based squads, no scouts (dunno the timeline of the campaign, but I doubt they would risk them), little tank support from them, possibly a Captain or Chaplain. Really, I could see a list like this: CF Captain BT Champ 15 Man Crusader Squad 6 Man "Tactical Squad" 6 Man "Tactical Squad" And what ever else you feel you need. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1668633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
T14 Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 Id wait until the SM codex is released, then decide how you are going to go about it rules wise. Your options are: A: run your army like a pure codex:SM army. B: run your army like a pure templar army C: have your army made up of two allied contingents A & B will allow you to mix marines from the two chapters in the same squad, as the mix is purely cosmetic. C will allow you to use rules from both codexes, but will not allow you to make mixed squads. the only way to have your cake and eat it too is through house rules in extremely friendly games. but that aspect of templar/CF history is interesting indeed :tu: - T14 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1668635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
medusa_ritchie Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 Brother Richard - Nice idea to include some Fists in your army. I saw the Declates article on the GW website and thought about doing something similar (but with Templars). I think if you are going to be using the army for tournaments then you need to stick to options that are available for BT. In terms of CF the current (soon to be old) codex says you can field them with Traits (Faithful unto death - one less elite, fast attack and heavy support slot on the FOC and Suffer Not The Alien to Live - Orks) or play them as a pure codex army so they are pretty flexible in what you can and can't do with them. But as others have said if you play them as CF then you don't get the benefit of BT rules. Look forward to seeing your painted fists. Medusa Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1668845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
1reeper Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Declates Crusade Iconagraphy And, this is a personal thing, but I'd say stick with the BT, the allied thing is interesting, but the special rules of the BT makes up for it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1669819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Richard Posted August 20, 2008 Author Share Posted August 20, 2008 Thanks to all for the comments... definately gave me a few things to think about. Checking my profile/gallery you can see I have plenty to work with/on.. I like the idea of staying BT with CF helping, some in with the squads just as a cosmetic difference. I will have to see what the new dex holds as to wether I attempt a allied setup. Thank you for the links reeper, and the nice list bk. For the Emperor and Dorn! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1669850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Richard Posted August 26, 2008 Author Share Posted August 26, 2008 The sample fist. I had to buy a few paints. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1671753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Richthofen Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 I love this idea... I once thought about doing a Crusade force combining IF/CF/BT, but I realized that I don't need to buy any more marine stuff... LOL. I think the CF would be ideally suited for use as infiltrating Sword Brethren, Assault Marines, Bikes, and Land Speeders (since they don't benefit from RZ). You could also mix some into your Crusader squads, or use smaller Shooty Squads to represent the CF in your army. Keep us updated on your progress! The models are looking good so far! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1672645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Zaarin Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 In Apoc play I regularly use CF DEV squads so I can fit all my heavy weapons in lol. The only problem I can see is it has now been anounced by Phil Kelly that wargear will not work the same between the codexes. So if you have a CF LR and a BT LR in the same force the CR one will hold 12 marines the BT one still only 10. If somebody in CF paint has a SS it will be 3+ Inv against all attacks while BT SS will still only be 4+ Inv in CC. BTW the models look awesome. Great paint work. And it is a very fluffy idea. Let us know how it goes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1673230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Strat Posted August 27, 2008 Share Posted August 27, 2008 If somebody in CF paint has a SS it will be 3+ Inv against all attacks while BT SS will still only be 4+ Inv in CC. Hmm... I may have to paint up some of my black reach termies as CF assault termies now... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1673327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uhric_Duval Posted September 13, 2008 Share Posted September 13, 2008 Sorry to resurrect a dead thread but I have a similar comment and felt this was the best place for it rather than starting a new thread. I plan on painting up a small detachment of crimson fists and using the standard C:SM rules for em as support in Apoc games and for smaller games. If I'm lucky, maybe my opponents can let me run the two armies in standard games for fun. Richthofen: Your idea for using the fists in BT armies is good, especially if someone plans to collect both armies simultaneously, but I think especially with the new SM codex that playing CF and BT as separate armies will be more interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1692479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Richard Posted September 15, 2008 Author Share Posted September 15, 2008 Thread not dead, I'm still painting away and will post soon. More than anything I am waiting for the new dex and see how this all plays out. But that is still a few days off. I am finding more and more posts on combined armies, using more than one chapter on the field and such. This is getting very interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1694554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasPanzerIstUber Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 I like it, its a cool and unique way to theme an army. The enthusiasm in the way you go about it is good too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1695390 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Richard Posted September 23, 2008 Author Share Posted September 23, 2008 Sweet Emperor of all that is holy! AoBR painting contest really took a lot of time away from other projects this month! Here is the 1st Shooty Troop with a few CF Brothers. Close up of Vet with CF - I know cheesy poster pic. OOOHHH Idea for a Propoganda poster! Next Up - Working on a Dev Squad of CF with a Templar brother tagging along. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1703179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshall Strat Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Looking good! Any chance of a better shot of the left shoulder pad on the launcher? I think I may snag the idea, but I want to see it a bit more first...^_^ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1703316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scura Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 Well. at least i am one of your referred to who fields different chapters in a crusade or such. But i think maybe it will be a good thing to let them keep their own colors, meaning Crimson fist will still fight as crimson fist along THEIR battle brothers. They might be flanked by BT or IF or both but they will probably never mix up... I don't know how to make myself real clear. If a crimson fist is to fight for his life cause all other brethren have died he will stay "in his squad" even if he is the last surviver. aka last man standing will not bring him to "join" a squad of Templars. Templar i suggest will never accept any other "member" in their squads then Paladins and Neophytes following the "way of Sigismund". So if i were you i wouldn't dare to mix squads but keep them separate and let them grom together only by iconography on this very Crusade iconography they use on this very crusade you're up to... ...hope this makes any sense, as i am german and only trying to make myself readable in english with making any sense at all :) Best wishes, Scura. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1703491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Valorus Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 I agree with your thoughts Brother Scura, but on the field I think vastly depleted squads of Crimson Fists or our own brethren would briefly join a squad so they can lend their aid. I think you should seperate squads (Crimson Fist squad w/ Bolters) and if they are running low in numbers (do to enemy fire) use them to aid your assault phase whilst lending bolter fire...there is nothing wrong with that After all, both crusaders and fists have the boiling blood of Dorn...and that is enough since we are all blood brothers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1703574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Argos Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 Normally I would agree about not mixing squads, but seeing that the fluff behind the Declates Crusade actually says that fought in mixed squads I think it's perfectly fine. Besides it adds quite a bit to the fluff and look of the army. I personally think the look good together, and the way each wears symbols from the other chapter to show their bond. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1703915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Its-a-good-fist-if-it-wins Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 Hi I have just joined and am new to this but i just wanted to say that this is a good idea. I have been following 40k for over 7 years but have only resently started collecting and playing again i am starting a CF army. Well ballanced but lacking in the "go and get them" up close that it needs and the BT have that in spades. It makes me want to do the same but I could never compremise on which is in charge I love the "we've been here forever" and "no nonsence" history of the CF. Good luck. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1703949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Richard Posted September 25, 2008 Author Share Posted September 25, 2008 Welcome aboard Good Fist! There was a lot of debate from friends and fellow gamers. I have squads of solid Templar and solid Fists. I also have a few stragglers who have jumped into squads with whom they felt comfortable with the fighting styles (shooty/close combat). Remember that Templar do not follow the traditional organization of squads, they band together in groups for gaming purposes, but for the most part, I thoroughly believe it is more like a initiate-neo bond that forms and lasts, until a brother is called to a higher purpose (Sword Brethren). Which is why our squads can be so varied in size and composition. Considering the fighting strenght of the Fists (post Rynn), I found it a nice concept that any CF squads may have a single Templar in the mix as a liaison, and my Templar's would have CF 'guides' who know the area really well to assist in coordinating the attacks - yes you could fall back to technology and just use comms to put the same point across, but I like the combo squads of these two very unique groups working so closely together. Another bonus...a sea of black and white can be quite intimidating, and then POP where's that blue guy from? Woah..they're all over! :) Pricessless! Rant complete.. The comments are great! Keep em coming, because it really helps me flush out the details on this stuff. Now that the AoBR painting challenge is done, I can get back to these guys. I will post pics again after the weekend! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1706035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Richard Posted September 29, 2008 Author Share Posted September 29, 2008 Update on the Crusade - We are up to four squads and in the process of completing a Dev Squad of CF. Here is the group pic. Per guidance provided by the great 1reeper.. I have added a few Crusade honors to certain squad members. Thank you for the website.. Good Stuff! And Crusade marks to greaves. I have even added a veterans veteran... this marine has made the rounds..(don't ask about timeline). I started to paint the helmet up white...then I stopped when I realized that wow, that look good. A sort of replacement helmet look. Not sure I would do a full squad like this, but for one it looks different, without standing out. I am even working on a few highlights for the CF paint scheme - still needs touchups but a definate improvement over the last two. Let me know what you think... I will post the Dev squad when they are done hopefully by the weekend. Then onto a HQ! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1709950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Richard Posted October 17, 2008 Author Share Posted October 17, 2008 New squad of pure Crimson Fist in the works... I personally don't like the plasma cannons but it is what I had left over from making up squads for the new dex. I really like giving the sarge a stormbolter and chainsword that was a bonus. Orks are distracting me from my crusade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1735888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackKnight1239 Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 So which Codex are you going to use with your Crusaders? Which are looking quite good, might I add. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1736037 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Exedore Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 PC are not that bad either. Keep up the good work, I like the theme - the mixed squads as well. Like Blacknight, I am interested in the Codex you will use. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1736964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustermaker Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 such a cool idea, it really shows the bond these two chapters have since at one time they were in the same chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/143981-declates-crusade-crimson-fist-and-the-templar/#findComment-1737429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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