First GKs done

[Pyriel]

Posting a link since this place is where I mostly need input and critique from.

Feel free to give me more ideas.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=144607

[- 7eAL -]

NMM is hard. What more advice do you want when you can already pull off that technique with relative success?

 

Also, red gun bodies are a surprisingly good choice. On most of the Knights it creates some balance between the left arm and right pauldron, because using black for the bolters and red for the right pauldron heraldry draws too much attention toward the right side pauldron. Using red on the left pauldron, tabard and backpack powerplant is also really smart because "completes" the scheme by giving the model a dash of red no matter what angle it is viewed from.

 

I notice that the halberd staves are done in a sort of dull, brassy gold. Overall effect on the weapon is brighter and more aesthetically pleasant than using black.

 

I still prefer my models to show a wear and tear of the field, so you could try some of this with the next batch. I'm also a fan of static grass, and a spot of green on the base may go a long way, since it'll help the bases blend better with grass terrain while making the red details on the models stand out more distinctly in contrast.

[Pyriel]

...see?

The static grass is a very good suggestion. There you have at least one good advice.

[- 7eAL -]

I don't know whether you'll be up for this, but I could also suggest painting squads in different colours. Grey Knights do operate independently most of the time, so they may not necessarily follow a fixed heraldry colour scheme even though the rest of their armour is left unpainted. Of course, whatever colour you use, it must be applied to the guns as well as the shoulders in order to present a unified look, because bright red guns will create unnecessary contrast with any other colour on the shoulder pads and backpacks.

 

That would also identify different squads very cleanly - one with red details, another with green, another with brilliant blue ...

 

Also, I notice on the shoulders that there is no distinct heraldry. It would be very difficult to blend shadow on the heraldry as well as you have done with the solid red, but the lack of those little painted images is also a lack of distinct individuality between different Knights. Seeing a slightly different emblem on the right shoulder of every Grey Knight is something that gives the entire army a sense of elite identity: every model is not just a Grey Knight, but a Knight who has a name and a place in history, an irreplaceable figure in the Imperium instead of just another faceless and nameless soldier who dies for an Emperor he has never seen and a cause that he doesn't really believe in.

[Pyriel]

Ah, you mean every PAGK should have a personal icon on the (right? left?) shoulder?

I can do that. Yet another cool idea, thanks!

 

About the different colours though, where is the fluff about that?

I never heard of nor saw GKs with blue shoulderpads and green/yellow/etc weapons.

IMO the best thing to differentiate the squads is to have all squad members sharing the justicars heraldy but that would also make it impossible for me to mix and play with different armies.

[Amit]

In summary; Disgustingly Talented! Great NMM work. How long did you spend doing the squad?

[- 7eAL -]

Ah, you mean every PAGK should have a personal icon on the (right? left?) shoulder?

I can do that. Yet another cool idea, thanks!

Right shoulder. I did say that it might be hard to paint icons with the same shading as the base colours, since your reds are done in grade. The usual icons shown in the codex are swords of varying sizes pointed in various directions over split vertical or diagonal fields, but it would be more interesting to paint different things entirely, so give each Knight more individual personality. Icons and heraldry can give each Knight a certain hint of backstory: for example a starburst icon could represent the first star system he fought in, a hammer could represent a reputation of great physical strength, and a hydra could represent speed and ferociousness in close combat.

 

 

About the different colours though, where is the fluff about that?

I never heard of nor saw GKs with blue shoulderpads and green/yellow/etc weapons.

IMO the best thing to differentiate the squads is to have all squad members sharing the justicars heraldy but that would also make it impossible for me to mix and play with different armies.

There's no fluff about using different colours, but as far as I can recall there is no specific limitation on the colours that can be used in a Grey Knight's personal heraldry and icons. Therefore, even though red is the only colour used in the codex, there is no particular reason why other colours can't be used. One issue of White Dwarf released shortly after they Daemonhunters Codex featured an article with photos of Grey Knights models using deep green on their heraldry.

 

There's a variety of other ways to show squads and individuals:

- A whole squad uses the same colour, but each Knight has different personal symbols and field arrangment. Hard to move models to different squads.

OR

- A whole squad uses the same symbols, but each Knight in the squad uses a different field colour. Hard to move models to different squads

OR

- Each Knight has his own symbols, field arrangment and colours: there is no specific colour or symbol for a whole squad. All the models can be moved around freely between squads.

OR

- A whole squad uses the same colour of eyes, so each Knight can have whatever colours or symbols you like. Models can be moved around freely between squads because eyes are less noticeable.

OR

- A whole squad uses a similar colour, so each Knight has a slightly different shade of the squad colour. Models that you need to move around between squads can use intermediary colours so a model in purple can go to a squad in shades of blue OR a squad in shades of red, and a model with orange can go to a squad in shades of red OR a squad in shades of yellow. A whole squad can be done using intermediary colours, so if there is a whole squad in shades of purple then it can be split in half between red and blue to boost squad sizes.

OR

- A whole squad uses a similar set of symbols, so each Knight has a slightly different symbol in a different place. Models that you need to move around between squads can have overlapping symbols so a model with a winged sword symbol can go to a squad of sword symbols or a squad with wing symbols, and a model with a number in a nova shape can go to a squad with stars or a squad with numbers. The more models have overlapping symbols then the more models can be moved to different squads, so make a large variety of combinations.

 

I can write up a larger list of symbol combinations later, since this is one that I haven't tried but would also look very unique and flexible.

 

 

Another small change that can be made is painting a symbol, border or a pattern on the Justicar's tabard. This instantly makes the Justicar look more detailed, if the border is only a simple white line around the edge. A pattern is much harder, especially if it's supposed to be subdued detail like a pattern woven into the fabric using the same colour. Patterns are also less noticeable, but many showcase models with large flat areas like cloaks and tabards do use something like this to show off advanced painting skills. Symbols need to conform to the contours of the area, so on a small tabard it would be easier to use a decal and a decal solvent to smooth it over.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Speaking as someone with real life knowledge of heraldry and experience painting Bretonnians in Warhammer Fantasy, I highly advise doing some research into heraldry. There are some heraldric rules and principles that help keep things crisp, clean, and easily identified, and not a foggy mess of colors you can't make out. Also there are numerous examples on the internet of different field divisions that are easy to paint.

 

Heraldry isn't as hard as people think it is, once you can paint basic symbols (swords, stars, hammers, moons, etc). It's also very easy to individualize people (borders, field divisions, color differentiation).

 

The basic rules are there are 5 colors (red, blue, green, black, purple), and 2 metals (white, yellow). Metal shall not touch metal, and color shall not touch color, however some patterns and divisions (checky, divisions in half or quarters) can render a background field 'neutral' so then you can put whatever color symbol over it...

 

It may seem unneccesarily complicated, but think of all the road signs you see... its either white lettering on a colored sign, or black lettering on a white or yellow sign, so that you can read it easily from a distance, and it doesn't blur into a messy blob.

 

A little homework first will make you much happier down the road when you look at your own models, and when people start giving you compliments on them.

[Pyriel]

Amit:

About 10-14 hours per mini. When I´m finished with a couple I´m usually so tired of them that I paint other things for a while in between.

 

- A whole squad uses a similar set of symbols, so each Knight has a slightly different symbol in a different place. Models that you need to move around between squads can have overlapping symbols so a model with a winged sword symbol can go to a squad of sword symbols or a squad with wing symbols, and a model with a number in a nova shape can go to a squad with stars or a squad with numbers. The more models have overlapping symbols then the more models can be moved to different squads, so make a large variety of combinations.

 

I can write up a larger list of symbol combinations later, since this is one that I haven't tried but would also look very unique and flexible.

I like this idea the best as I really paint to slow to have a bunch of side minis just to have my squads customisable for gaming.

And if you have cool symbol ideas, shoot!

 

Speaking as someone with real life knowledge of heraldry and experience painting Bretonnians in Warhammer Fantasy, I highly advise doing some research into heraldry. There are some heraldric rules and principles that help keep things crisp, clean, and easily identified, and not a foggy mess of colors you can't make out. Also there are numerous examples on the internet of different field divisions that are easy to paint.

 

Heraldry isn't as hard as people think it is, once you can paint basic symbols (swords, stars, hammers, moons, etc). It's also very easy to individualize people (borders, field divisions, color differentiation).

 

The basic rules are there are 5 colors (red, blue, green, black, purple), and 2 metals (white, yellow). Metal shall not touch metal, and color shall not touch color, however some patterns and divisions (checky, divisions in half or quarters) can render a background field 'neutral' so then you can put whatever color symbol over it...

 

It may seem unneccesarily complicated, but think of all the road signs you see... its either white lettering on a colored sign, or black lettering on a white or yellow sign, so that you can read it easily from a distance, and it doesn't blur into a messy blob.

Very helpful, thanks ;)

Interessting with the other colours and I´m still quite uncertain how GKs would look with green and blue symbols on them all of a sudden but if they are contained within small heraldic fields I guess it might look good.

 

So basically we have:

Green, blue, red, black, purple. And those colours must be separated with:

White and yellow in such a way that neither white nor yellow touch one another.

?

 

Now what in the way of symbols, could be apropriate to use for futuristic GKs?

I´m thinking:

Hammer, sword, star, nova/ring, skull, wing, pentagram and fields separated by thinner lines in a checkered pattern.

 

Can this be ok or did I miss something?

Heck, maybe we should start a pinned thread where people make up and post pics of their GK heraldics with Zeals and Nicoles guides to rule them. That might be awesome.

[- 7eAL -]

Interessting with the other colours and I´m still quite uncertain how GKs would look with green and blue symbols on them all of a sudden but if they are contained within small heraldic fields I guess it might look good.

I think that if you use other colours to replace the red, then you should replace all the red parts on the model. A model with blue heraldry should carry a blue storm bolter and blue detail paints, otherwise the blue heraldry will just create a colour conflict with the red storm bolter. The rest of the armour and the colour of the Nemesis force weapon should be the same for all Grey Knights, so they have unity. It's the same idea that applies to painting Harlequins - they all use different colours, but by keeping certain important colours the same on all the models in the squad, then the whole squad has a unified appearance even though each model has great individuality.

 

 

Now what in the way of symbols, could be apropriate to use for futuristic GKs?

I´m thinking:

Hammer, sword, star, nova/ring, skull, wing, pentagram and fields separated by thinner lines in a checkered pattern.

Pentagrams might be a little difficult since the lines are thin. If you have the brush control for it, though, that would be excellent. For detailed charges like the pentagram, it would be better to have a single field rather than a divided one, because the detail will be harder to keep and because the charge on a small area like the shoulder pad becomes less distinguished when there are more background colours underneath.

 

A list of combinations:

- angled hammer or sword with one wing (like the Emperor's Children wing)

- vertical hammer or sword with one wing (like the small Dark Angels symbol)

- vertical hammer or sword with two wings (like the Dark Angels symbol)

- sword or hammer overlapping a skull

- sword piercing the skull (like the Grey Knights arrangment)

- sword or hammer overlapping a star, nova or ring

- sword or hammer surrounded by tiny stars (like the Halo "Pillar of Autumn" arrangment)

- skull inside a star, nova or ring

- skull with one or two wings

- profile of a skull with one wing

- star with one or two wings

- small star on the forehead of a skull

- small star inside a nova or ring

- outline of a star, like a small star inside a star

[Pyriel]

I think that if you use other colours to replace the red, then you should replace all the red parts on the model. A model with blue heraldry should carry a blue storm bolter and blue detail paints, otherwise the blue heraldry will just create a colour conflict with the red storm bolter. The rest of the armour and the colour of the Nemesis force weapon should be the same for all Grey Knights, so they have unity. It's the same idea that applies to painting Harlequins - they all use different colours, but by keeping certain important colours the same on all the models in the squad, then the whole squad has a unified appearance even though each model has great individuality.

To that I agree but unfortunately this will mean I cannot mich and alter squad sizes and compositions so I have to make a compromise and still keep the main colours on the pads and weapons red.

 

Pentagrams might be a little difficult since the lines are thin. If you have the brush control for it, though, that would be excellent. For detailed charges like the pentagram, it would be better to have a single field rather than a divided one, because the detail will be harder to keep and because the charge on a small area like the shoulder pad becomes less distinguished when there are more background colours underneath.

Dunno, painted a quickie here, is this pentagram ok or should I change something for the next one I´ll paint?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/Pyriel/Miniatures/GKT1.jpg

 

A list of combinations:

- angled hammer or sword with one wing (like the Emperor's Children wing)

- vertical hammer or sword with one wing (like the small Dark Angels symbol)

- vertical hammer or sword with two wings (like the Dark Angels symbol)

- sword or hammer overlapping a skull

- sword piercing the skull (like the Grey Knights arrangment)

- sword or hammer overlapping a star, nova or ring

- sword or hammer surrounded by tiny stars (like the Halo "Pillar of Autumn" arrangment)

- skull inside a star, nova or ring

- skull with one or two wings

- profile of a skull with one wing

- star with one or two wings

- small star on the forehead of a skull

- small star inside a nova or ring

- outline of a star, like a small star inside a star

If Inquisitor NicolePyykkonen doesnt have stuff to add I think this pretty much sums it up and gives me all I need to paint squad heraldics.

 

I like the winged weapons especially but -i think -ill also add iron halos over them to "wrap it up" so to speak.

[Heru]

Dunno, painted a quickie here, is this pentagram ok or should I change something for the next one I´ll paint?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/Pyriel/Miniatures/GKT1.jpg

That isn't a Pentagram, a Pentagram has five points... what you've actually painted is a star of david...

[- 7eAL -]

I think that if you use other colours to replace the red, then you should replace all the red parts on the model. A model with blue heraldry should carry a blue storm bolter and blue detail paints, otherwise the blue heraldry will just create a colour conflict with the red storm bolter. The rest of the armour and the colour of the Nemesis force weapon should be the same for all Grey Knights, so they have unity. It's the same idea that applies to painting Harlequins - they all use different colours, but by keeping certain important colours the same on all the models in the squad, then the whole squad has a unified appearance even though each model has great individuality.

To that I agree but unfortunately this will mean I cannot mich and alter squad sizes and compositions so I have to make a compromise and still keep the main colours on the pads and weapons red.

Not quite what I meant. The important unifying colours for your Grey Knights are the armour areas that you do in NMM. If all of your squads have mixed heraldry and weapon colours, then it won't look strange at all. If you use the heraldry symbol combinations with different colours, then the unifying part for the squad is the heraldry charge, not the heraldry colour.

 

I like the winged weapons especially but -i think -ill also add iron halos over them to "wrap it up" so to speak.

Iron Halo over winged weapon? What would that look like?

 

That isn't a Pentagram, a Pentagram has five points... what you've actually painted is a star of david...

Heru is right, a proper pentagram (not inscribed in a circle) looks like this:

pentagram_green.svg

[Pyriel]

That isn't a Pentagram, a Pentagram has five points... what you've actually painted is a star of david...

True, my misstake. I mixed things up a bit as I was thinking of painting "hexagrammic wards" on some Grey Knights and then promptly forgetting about it

 

Iron Halo over winged weapon? What would that look like?

Well, imagine a Vertical hammer with one wing on each side and over everything is a half gloria, like an iron halo capping it.

 

The wards that I was thinking, where else except the small shields could I paint in "hexagrammic" and "pentagrammic" wards you think?

[- 7eAL -]

The wards that I was thinking, where else except the small shields could I paint in "hexagrammic" and "pentagrammic" wards you think?

I have thought of but haven't yet tried painting a warding pattern onto the surface of the armour, if that means anything. The fluff, the artwork and the codex all seem to show that most of the armour's surface is engraved or patterned with something faint. Of all the artworks in the codex, only the Terminator armour on the Grey Knight Hero page and on Brother-Captain Stern's page are clean and free of small markings.

 

Paint a faint pattern on the armour using the main colour mixed with highlight or shade colours. The colour used for the pattern only needs to show a slight difference.

[Inquisitor Fox]

If Inquisitor NicolePyykkonen doesnt have stuff to add I think this pretty much sums it up and gives me all I need to paint squad heraldics.

 

The example you just did is plenty fine.

 

One thing to point out, with your summation. It's okay to have say, a checkered red and black field (like a checkerboard.. this is called ironicaly enough, "checky"), just then any symbols or writing on it must be a metal (white or yellow). What you've done there, essentially is make a "colored" field... so you must have a "metal" symbol. You could also have say, red and white split vertically, with a big yellow symbol over the middle, touching both sides. What you can visualize, is the yellow is touching the red, and the red is touching the white. A red and white field is "neutral" (because it is equal parts color and metal), so you may paint either a color or a metal on a neutral field. The common example in the Codices is a red and white field, with a black symbol touching both. Technically black and red are both colors, but since you have blended red and white to make a "neutral" field, you may now have a black symbol touching both.

 

There are hordes of different heraldric options.. most of the examples GW has done just use the inquisition colors of red, white and black. I'd try thumbing through a Bretonnian Army Book at the local game store to see some examples, or if you want real world heraldry, here's some links I found:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldry

 

http://www.rarebooks.nd.edu/digital/heraldry/

 

http://www.heraldica.org/

 

That's just a couple at least to get you started.

 

Welcome to the reason my Bretonnian army is never really all painted... I can only do so much then my brain rebels and wants to make uniformly colored Space Marines or something :lol:

 

Edit:

Interessting with the other colours and I´m still quite uncertain how GKs would look with green and blue symbols on them all of a sudden but if they are contained within small heraldic fields I guess it might look good.

I think that if you use other colours to replace the red, then you should replace all the red parts on the model. A model with blue heraldry should carry a blue storm bolter and blue detail paints, otherwise the blue heraldry will just create a colour conflict with the red storm bolter. The rest of the armour and the colour of the Nemesis force weapon should be the same for all Grey Knights, so they have unity. It's the same idea that applies to painting Harlequins - they all use different colours, but by keeping certain important colours the same on all the models in the squad, then the whole squad has a unified appearance even though each model has great individuality.

I actually disagree slightly here: I Always paint weapons and wargear uniformly depending on who manufactured the weapon. In my Inquisitorial/Space Marine/Guard motly crew... all the lasguns are the same.. all the guard and sisters bolters are red, special weapons are black (grenade launchers, meltas, flamers, etc). Autocannons and stubbers are silver... the grey knight and space marine bolters and weapons are black since they make their own and kind of break my rule I suppose.

 

I would keep all the grey knight weapons uniform.. after all, they're all made in the chapters forges. The heraldry is what makes each knight unique, not their weaponry. Part of what makes a Bretonnian army look awesome is all the shining silver armor, lances and weapons that are relatively common (most are wood so browns, with a few blacks or tans, silver metal swords), then the riot of color of heraldry making every knight look unique from his comrade. It's not actually as eyeglaring as you'd think with all the other common colors staying put. The heraldric shield of the Grey Knight is so small, relatively, that you won't notice any clashing when putting them next to each other, but they will each look unique and different than their fellows. For what I'm painting, I'm keeping all the storm bolters and psycannons black casings, with a blue crystaline blade on all the nemesis force weapons. Once I finally finish moving and can paint again maybe I'll see if I can post pictures at some point, though I suck at highlighting, so I don't. I keep the paintjobs crisp, clean and simple and people tend to like it.

 

So anyway, after I blah blah some more... I'd keep the weapons uniform, and just differentiate with the heraldry. Ultimately though, it's your army so you get to pick whatever you want :lol:

[Pyriel]

Thanks dude, that was helpful <_<

[Cheesus]

I just think those models are gorgeous, especially the regular armor. Keep it up! (if you don't go insane first)

[- 7eAL -]

Interessting with the other colours and I´m still quite uncertain how GKs would look with green and blue symbols on them all of a sudden but if they are contained within small heraldic fields I guess it might look good.

I think that if you use other colours to replace the red, then you should replace all the red parts on the model. A model with blue heraldry should carry a blue storm bolter and blue detail paints, otherwise the blue heraldry will just create a colour conflict with the red storm bolter. The rest of the armour and the colour of the Nemesis force weapon should be the same for all Grey Knights, so they have unity. It's the same idea that applies to painting Harlequins - they all use different colours, but by keeping certain important colours the same on all the models in the squad, then the whole squad has a unified appearance even though each model has great individuality.

I actually disagree slightly here: I Always paint weapons and wargear uniformly depending on who manufactured the weapon. In my Inquisitorial/Space Marine/Guard motly crew... all the lasguns are the same.. all the guard and sisters bolters are red, special weapons are black (grenade launchers, meltas, flamers, etc). Autocannons and stubbers are silver... the grey knight and space marine bolters and weapons are black since they make their own and kind of break my rule I suppose.

The reason I said to match guns to the heraldry colour is because they are both red on Pyriel's models. Unless he repaints his weapons in a neutral colour, the heraldry colour won't stand out amongst all the red. Whether one wants the heraldry colour to stand out and become part of the colour scheme on a model is up to oneself, but when the heraldry colour is restricted to the one shoulderpad, a stronger colour like red will overwhelm it. If the heraldry is only to be a detail on the model and not part of the whole colour scheme, then the painter doesn't need to draw any additional attention to it or place any additional emphasis on it by using the colour elsewhere.

 

There are two most effective ways to paint such an attention-grabbing part of the model as the weapon. The first is to use a subdued and neutral colour such as black or grey or a metallic so that attention is suppressed. The second is to use a colour from the rest of the scheme so that it doesn't look like a separate object stealing more attention than it already gets. The old Ultramarine colour scheme using bright red bolters drew too much attention to the bolter and made the rest of the blue colour scheme look tacky and yellow trim look weak. The new Ultramarine colour scheme using black bolters lets the rest of the model's proper colours stand out more. The red bolter works alright for Dark Angels because there is a much more natural complementary colour connection between red and green, and since Dark Angels green is so deep and there are no other bright colours, the red on the bolter and in the eyes becomes a part of the whole colour scheme.

 

 

My own Grey Knights make use of their heraldry colours as part of the whole colour scheme. They look like the subdued Bretonnians of the 41st millenium, because I converted additional tabards, cloaks and so on to give them more room for colour. Weapon hafts and gun casings are Boltgun Metal drybrushed Tin Bitz to be more subdued while staying within the boundaries of the metal body, while even their purity seals are are metal washed in the heraldry colour. This way the heraldry always stands out on the shoulders and cloths of each model - there are no areas of matte-black, nor any distracting spots of red or gold.

 

In contrast, my Stormtroopers use only gloss black armour and weapons on top of their matte-black uniforms. All metal details are silver. Their flashing lights and visors come in different colours, though, so they're mixed up between squads. Again, no bright and flashy Inquisition colours, but the smallest detailed points of colour stand out so they look like the lite-Jin-Roh special ops of the 41st millenium with only brilliantly coloured eyes to be identified with. On the table, the deep black of the Stormtroopers looks like a mass of shadow next to the shining silver cloud-lining of the Grey Knights.

[Inquisitor Fox]

@ - 7e/\L -: Ah, I see your point. That's from more of an artistic perspective but definately a valid one. I did mine more from a background/army fluff point of view. Your point is definately valid artistically, and has a lot of merit to it.

[- 7eAL -]

@ - 7e/\L -: Ah, I see your point. That's from more of an artistic perspective but definately a valid one. I did mine more from a background/army fluff point of view. Your point is definately valid artistically, and has a lot of merit to it.

Colour schemes are always relatively flexible. Fluff, one can sometimes make up as one goes along. Realism is generally fixed, but the limits of fantasy extend beyond the reach of the sky. For me, the aim is to create a model that has a visually interesting appearance and scheme without conflicting with the fluff and disrupting the realism within the fantasy.

 

To use my Grey Knights as an example again, I use uniform antiqued silver armour colours but their heraldry and tabards show their individuality.

Individual heraldry emphasizes that each Grey Knight is an hero of the Imperium, has a name, has a face, has a place in the world. Each Knight takes a little pride in his work so even though he has probably been mind-wiped hard enough to forget where he was born and what name he was born with, his achievements and his efforts become part of the identity that he paints onto his heraldry.

The aged armour hints their unsung and unremembered legend, like the long neglected arms and coats of armour that slowly age in our museums. One can only imagine the stories behind each piece, because every scratch and dent in a suit or armour is the memory of a painful blow or a close brush with death, in the same way that one can only imagine what sort of struggles each Grey Knight has faced.

 

(If anyone can make tabletop models sound dramatic, I can.)