Aarg to poor Sportsmanship

[Joah from Alberta]

I played against a formidable Necron opponent last night. I lost (60 LSD is just too darn much) that's okay. My problem though is with my opponent. When I go to the club, I always set up my army for display on the table and I await a challenger. I could tell he was gunning for me with his all too purposeful eyes-- staring fixedly unto some devolved inner-complex. At any rate, mid-way through the game my LSD were under some heavy Monolith fire and I lost my last 5 failing 5 inv saves. Upon seeing my missed rolls my opponent cheered out loud.

 

This is what got me. I told him not to curse me and he just brushed it off. Now I'm wondering, how should I feel about this. The game was a close one, I lost 5:6 but it was a good match. What really bothers me is my opponents obvious intent on winning. (And the fact that he called me on Typhus' re-rolling poisonous T4 wounds-- he didn't have a rule book-- I did: he insisted that I look it up during my turn.) Gha!

[King Tiger]

At any rate, mid-way through the game my LSD were under some heavy Monolith fire and I lost my last 5 failing 5 inv saves. Upon seeing my missed rolls my opponent cheered out loud.

so he's bad for celebrating the demise of one of your units?

This is what got me. I told him not to curse me and he just brushed it off.

as would I, there is no such thing as "cursing" in a game

What really bothers me is my opponents obvious intent on winning.

then tell us this obvious intent, so far no example of it has been given

(And the fact that he called me on Typhus' re-rolling poisonous T4 wounds-- he didn't have a rule book-- I did: he insisted that I look it up during my turn.) Gha!

so he called you up on a rule he didn't know, and obviously wanted to know existed, and thats bad?

 

ok then *walks away shaking head*

 

this is not an example of bad sportsmanship in my opinion, its an example of a normal game of 40k, with someone who lost complaining about something that isn't there........

[Trve]

so he's bad for celebrating the demise of one of your units?

 

I guess enjoying a game is bad sportsmanship round your area

 

 

 

That was my thought.

 

 

It was a close game and some luck went his way. He celebrated. He was having fun.

 

 

This sounds more like bitterness and poor sportsmenship on your part rather then his.

[Lady_Canoness]

All depends how he did it. If your opponent was casual and good spirited when you were playing then its not his fault, but if he was over the top aggressive and sour, then you are right, he was a poor sportsman. Cheer at your unit's demise can be a little rattling, but so long as it is in moderation I see no problem with it - I cheer regularily, though I make sure to lavish the praise on my own unti rather than talkin' smack to his.

[the jeske]

What really bothers me is my opponents obvious intent on winning

would you like him more , if he played with an intent to lose ?

 

really and whats this part about having a complex . maybe he was just checking your list to remember what weapon/special load outs your units have .

 

Also I dont know why , but cheering is not bad thing . What did he say "take that you bastards , now I have won" . thats not bad as long as it not racial and not family its ok . But then again we eastern guys have a much more thicker hide .

[Joah from Alberta]

I am learning in my old age. I have had several opinions on this and the verdict is that it is bad form to cheer your opponents demise. My good friend mentioned a quote from Napoleon, "best to look over your opponents mistakes", well, in this case it would be "your opponents misfortunes".

 

Yeah, we all have standards for gaming etiquette. I myself have high standards. There are shades to winning and losing. I will continue to study this and hopefully come to some reasonable conclusions.

[chillin]

From what you have written I really don't see that the guy really did anything, but I also know that a persons attitude is some times more the problem then what they actually said or did.

We talk some smack when we play but we're friends and it's good natured, you do have to be alittle more carefull when it's someone you don't know so they don't misinterpet smacktalk for poor sportmanship or poor attitude.

But as far as asking him not to curse you, I'm not sure what you mean. 5+ saves are going to miss 2/3's of the time.

[BigDaddyNurgle]

I'm going to be honest with you, I think you need to take the game a little less seriously, and grow a little thicker skin. In the end, it's nothing more than a game. And, as we all know, the entire purpose of the game, other than having fun, is to ultimately win. If it upsets you when somebody is intent on beating you, then you shouldn't be playing. If it upsets you that the cheers the fact that you failed some Invulnerable Saves, then you need to lighten up and enjoy the game, or maybe find a new hobby. I think all of us, at some point or another, have cheered the fact that an opponent of ours failed a crucial save that helped to swing things in our direction. I certainly know that I have. I've got a really good friend who plays Dark Eldar, and he's friggin' awesome with his army. And believe me, anytime one of us fails a crucial save, the other cheers about it a little. And believe you me, when we take to the table against one another, we both know the other is going to bring everything he has to try and win the game.

 

Now, seeing as the game was so close, I would suggest trying to set some kind of a rematch with him. Now that you've played him once, you'll have a better idea of what to expect when you play him again. It might even turn out to be a nice little on table rivalry between the two of you.

 

As for his insistence that you look things up in your codex during your turn, it's either one of two things. A) He's not familiar with the Chaos Codex and the rules that it contains for the HQ Characters such as Typhus. :rolleyes: He is familiar, and was only doing it as a type of stall tactic to try and break your concentration from what you had planned to do during that turn of yours. More than likely however, it's the first option. I wouldn't think he would use option B unless you two have played each other a lot, and your pretty close friends. Which, from what I read, isn't the case.

 

In other words, man you simply need to lighten up a little bit. Don't take the game so seriously. You lose some, you win some, you end up in a draw in others. In the end though, it's merely a game, and both sides of the table are out to do one thing, and one thing only, and that's win. Nobody fields their army with the intent of forcing a draw/stalemate and being happy with it.

[Jux2p0ze]

You said it yourself that you display your army for any challengers. You will eventually come across a "club assassin" aimed at taking you down a peg. In tournament play, it's meta-gaming, which implies he might have a rock hard army, but could easily lose to another's list intended on taking him out. That being said, there's no point in berating what's happened which is you took a sore loss. If it were the other way around and you finally slapped down an enemy's killer hive tyrant that ripped through the ranks, I would expect you to exultate. If you started talking smack, then I'd finish the game and decide to never play you OR bring the killer list next time and feed you humble pie.

 

I think there's a disparity because "intent on winning" is moot when you're talking about a war game simulation. Nobody wants to lose a war or a war game. Everybody likes winning. I still think as a graceful loser, ask your opponent what he would have done in your position or opening moves, ask yourself if it really is sound advice, then challenge him to a rematch on YOUR terms: same list vs. same 'dex vs. swapped, etc. Then you'll get satisfaction if it's a 'dex advantage, list advantage, player skill, or simply luck.

 

No matter what, you win some, you lose some...it's the worst feeling when something goes afoul when you're on top and then you rationalize mistakes or project your errors onto someone else's behavior. I tend to play stone cold and politely almost to the point that people think I'm iced out and not having fun when I'm really trying to make sure they can't read my responses. I say if he's got the stones to prove it, he'll play another game and better yet he may be the most valuable asset in your gaming community: an adversary.

[Mr.(Space)Marine]

Laughing at somone's misfortune is not very sportman-like. That should not be tollerated, unless you are playing with friends (in which case its encouraged, it makes it more fun. Laughing at your own misfortune in friendly games is fun too.).

 

Just don't play this guy again if you ever see him (and tell people you know not to play him), unless you plan on enacting vengeance.

[the jeske]

Laughing at somone's misfortune is not very sportman-like.

how is laughing/cheering at failed saves , laughing at somone's misfortune?

Now I understand if he lost a models or his FW dread/Lord/Pm fell down and got broken . Now cheering/gloating at something like that is unsportsman like . I mean when you shot your opponent armies you think "oh god let him make most of his saves or he may not like me or see my army is as the cheez army incarneted"?

[Mr.(Space)Marine]

Well I was just saying that laughing in somones face when they fail a save/test etc is not sportsmanlike. I have never had anyone that I don't know do that to me before, and if they did I would have second thoughts about playing them again (but in some tournaments its the luck of the draw).

 

And I don't think I would really want my opponent to pass all his saves, it is a game. But still, people should have the common decency to not be a gloating pig. I would not laugh at somone for doing something stupid in a game or failing to do something in a game unless I knew the person and I knew that they had a sense of humour. People do not have to be strict, no nonsense gamers that can't do anything or "oh noes the opponent doesn't like me argh!", but having just a little bit of common sportsmanship goes a long way to having an enjoyable game.

 

I do not live in the USA, so my opinions are most probably different to others.

 

how is laughing/cheering at failed saves , laughing at somone's misfortune?

 

You would be fortunate to pass a save. You are unfortunate to fail a save. If you were to look at a dictionary definition of Fortune, one of its meanings is Luck. So its just like saying "you were unlucky to fail that save" etc. If you fail a save, you are unfortunate because luck went against you.

 

This isn't meant to be a thread arguing about the meanings of words, I was giving my personal advice to Joah from Alberta, who obviousl;y cares about players being good sports. Lets keep this on topic now that I have cleared that up.

[Jarulek]

This thread is overkill. Everybody is saying the same thing over and over and over again. He must have gotten it by know.

[Seahawk]

I do everything that guy did. And yet both me and my opponents always have great, fun games, as they usually tell me afterwards between tears of mirth. It's all a game to me...

[Joah from Alberta]

Well, overkill is a part of our game. Yeah, yeah, yeah I get it already. Sort of. I will take a moment to address my confession in a rage of humility: (I wrote this in PM to a friend today)

I'll begin with my own experiences. I have won 9 out of my last 10 games. This week end, my luck ran out and I lost one. Boy was I sore. Having blazed a path of utter Chaos I finally ran myself head first into a pole. I didn't rest when I oughta and my game was lost. But I felt choked, yeah it didn't help that the guy was an arrogant pr!ck, but it all felt amplified. I love this game for the element of sportsmanship, played MTG for 10+ years and nobody ever heard of sportsmanship. So I begin to think, why am I obsessing over my opponents blatant poorsmanship, why, why, why. Then it dawns on me that yeah, maybe I am being a bit of a poorsport myself. How come, well, I've been winning for so long, my ego has been fanned high and mighty and now that someone bests me I adopt the 'how dare you' attitude. Well, hey, I admit it, I'm just a beautiful composition of flesh and bone. Man oh man.

 

I still believe this somewhat of a conundrum. Should I feel bad when my unfamiliar opponent cheers my demise? Is that what they call "coffeehouse chess"? Smacktalk "Sir, I am fluent in over six million forms of communication. ... I am C-3PO, human-cyborg relations." Crapits! I guess it's okay if I say it is. Well, chalk it down to the most obscure virtue in the land of Ultima.

 

PS, my opponent insisted I look up the USR poisonous weapons rule in the 5th during my turn as he did not bring his rule book that day. And believe you me, I'll have more than 60 evil-dead LSDs at the reign of Typhus in his pimped our LR the next time I play him. heh heh

[the jeske]

So its just like saying "you were unlucky to fail that save" etc. If you fail a save, you are unfortunate because luck went against you.

no man I think that he is over reacting a lot . I mean going lol when you win is ok , what should you be sad that you are wining . I did say that it is unsportsman like to gloat when someone models get destroyed[in RL] or make racial/family slurs . thats bad [what ddoesnt mean it doesnt happen] . I dont think that being happy that your opponent didnt roll his saves is "gloating like a pig" . Special as the game was suppose to have been very close .

I mean I have countless time when destroying one single model/unit ment , if I would be 5/6th[no cash/prizes] or 1st on a tournament[trip paid in full] . And yes I was happy when killing those . Its natural .

[Allerka]

Well, overkill is a part of our game. Yeah, yeah, yeah I get it already. Sort of. I will take a moment to address my confession in a rage of humility: (I wrote this in PM to a friend today)

I'll begin with my own experiences. I have won 9 out of my last 10 games. This week end, my luck ran out and I lost one. Boy was I sore. Having blazed a path of utter Chaos I finally ran myself head first into a pole. I didn't rest when I oughta and my game was lost. But I felt choked, yeah it didn't help that the guy was an arrogant pr!ck, but it all felt amplified. I love this game for the element of sportsmanship, played MTG for 10+ years and nobody ever heard of sportsmanship. So I begin to think, why am I obsessing over my opponents blatant poorsmanship, why, why, why. Then it dawns on me that yeah, maybe I am being a bit of a poorsport myself. How come, well, I've been winning for so long, my ego has been fanned high and mighty and now that someone bests me I adopt the 'how dare you' attitude. Well, hey, I admit it, I'm just a beautiful composition of flesh and bone. Man oh man.

 

I still believe this somewhat of a conundrum. Should I feel bad when my unfamiliar opponent cheers my demise? Is that what they call "coffeehouse chess"? Smacktalk "Sir, I am fluent in over six million forms of communication. ... I am C-3PO, human-cyborg relations." Crapits! I guess it's okay if I say it is. Well, chalk it down to the most obscure virtue in the land of Ultima.

 

PS, my opponent insisted I look up the USR poisonous weapons rule in the 5th during my turn as he did not bring his rule book that day. And believe you me, I'll have more than 60 evil-dead LSDs at the reign of Typhus in his pimped our LR the next time I play him. heh heh

I can relate to you there. Having a huge winning streak can definitely give you a bit of a euphoria. I was pretty much the same way earlier this year, I had won like a dozen games straight with my Loyalist Marines (the euphoria being further amplified by the fact that I was using the weakest codex in the game B)), and then I finally lost, too. To another C:SM army, no less. Like you, I felt indignant, outraged, etc. But, then I remembered, that's part of the game. Even the best list will still lose on occasion. Of course, I also found out afterwards the guy that beat me was cheating, so I never played him again. :P

[the jeske]

I was pretty much the same way earlier this year, I had won like a dozen games straight with my Loyalist Marines (the euphoria being further amplified by the fact that I was using the weakest codex in the game

please tell me your thinking about the 2ed , please.

[Joah from Alberta]

thinking .... hmm ... yeah, maybe he was cheating too ... hmm

[Allerka]

please tell me your thinking about the 2ed , please.

Nope, 4th edition codex using traits. Hence why I said the euphoria was enhanced by that fact. Never even played 2nd edition, as a matter of fact.

 

 

thinking .... hmm ... yeah, maybe he was cheating too ... hmm

I dearly hope you're not trying to say I was cheating. We may just have a fight on our hands, then. :P

[Debauchery101]

Oh Geeez not this subject...............

 

a lot of people play this game because they want to have pride in creating a list and using their tactics to win a battle.

 

just because some people want to just paint p[retty armies, roll dice and conversate doesnt mean people are worng for being competative.

 

so what if a guy challenged you on rules, so what if he cheered when he killed some of your guys. even if you did fail your own rolls. it was a clsoe match as you say and that musta helped him out so yeah he should be excited.

 

none of what you listed was in my eyes bad sportsmanship.

 

unless a guy is cursing everytime he fails a roll, or criticises your army list or how your troops have this or that or if hes actually belittling you and cussing you out then i dont see the problem.

 

you ever look at a sports game and see a guy fumble the football, get his kick blocked by the keeper, miss an easy outfield catch that meant the game? did the other team cheer and do backflips? youre damn right they did.

 

I understand sportsmanship is is somthign that should be upheld at all times but its bit me in the butt more than naught.

 

7 times ive lost an overall RTT tournement title because ill cheer or beat an opponent so bad he quits before the end of the game. ive even been accused of having a pumped list. from winning so soon or so nastily. though lists are always checked. but regardless of that people get sour and score me zero.

 

ive even tried not even talking while the game is being played except for saying what im moving and shooting and rolling for. ive even had snacks and drinks for my opponents and still get scored 0 or 1. :cuss!?!?!?!?!?!?

 

sportsmanship in competative environments scored by peers is not good. So 7 times ive lost the overall and took best general in which my general scores where a lot higher than the overall.

 

 

In otherwords theres different levels of sportsmanship and situations where it should be. everyone plays for different reasons no one is better than the other. if you understand that and just play the way you want then youll be fine and have fun.

[Mr.(Space)Marine]

I am sorry about my above comments, I overeacted a bit and typed before I thought. I take back what I have said, sorry to The Jeske for arguing over something I was not thinking properly about.

 

My personal (and by no means right) opinions on sportsmanship and how it effects the game:

 

Sportmanship is part of the 40k "game." 40k has many branches such as the hobby and fluff aspects, but I am talking about the game aspect for now.

 

My own definition of a game, which doesn't apply to all games, is that a game is an agreement between two or more people to compete against each other and have fun. Not all games are about having fun, but most good games are about having fun whilst still being competitive.

 

I think that sportsmanship was invented so that people can have fun in the game. Now most of the time, people have fun anyway, but in some cases people do not have fun. Most of the time this is due to a lack of sportsmanship.

 

Contrary to what I said earlier (when I was angry and tired after a rough day), I do not mind having a laugh with my opponent about certain things in the game. This is having fun, half of what a game is about. You can have fun laughing at a miraculous event, or how your opponents stormtroopers got blown away in one turn of shooting against a badly armed mob of orks (happened to me...as the orks) as long as you are not laughing AT the opponent(s) themselves. Laughing WITH your opponent, or AT an event of some sort during the game is fine, but laughing directly AT your opponent, for whatever reason, is not sportsmanlike.

 

Take this example which happened to me a few months ago: I was playing in a friendly mini "winner of each game versus the winner of the other game" tournament with some people I know, and one person who is generally a competent player, who was starting a new army of necrons, was versing an Eldar player. He was wrecking havoc throughout the Eldar player's lines, and teleported a huge squad of warriors with a Lord directly behind some Guardians using Veil of Darkness. His Lord subsequently had a bad case of exploding head, and was killed by the farseer's Mind War power (at least I think thats what its called). The "ref" of the tournament said that he had only ever seen this power kill a space marine sergeant, so everyone laughed at this miraculous event that happened to befall the necron player (who ended up winning, for the record).

 

In this example, we were not laughing at the necron player, but with him, and at the funny event that happened.

 

An example of what is not sportsmanship: "Okay I will roll to hit, I need 3's"

"Haha you only got 2 hits"

"Um, okay, now rolls to wound. I need 4's against toughness four"

"Hahaha OMG you suck at rolling"

"Okay, one wound, armour save"

*player fails save*

"Shoot, how did I fail that? That sucks, I should have saved that. Its YOUR FALT."

 

Although an extreme example that I have never seen before, it shows several things that players should not do:

 

-laughing at the other player

-insulting the other player

-blaming everything bad on something, be it the other player, or blaming on something stupid like "oh these dice must be weighted", or "the dice hit your model, so that was unfair,"

 

So generally youcan have a luahg with the other player, just no insulting or laughing directly AT the opposing player. And don't take losing too badly either.

 

 

Well that is my personal opinions of how players of 40k and wargaming in general should be like when versing someone else in a competetive or even friendky environment. If you disagree, which I;m sure some of you do, then thats okay, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. If you agree, then thats fine too.

 

Again, sorry for the earlier posts and my pointless arguement.

[Smurfalypse]

If you dont like to play with someone, dont play, if you like to play someone keep playing with them. Pretty simple solution to the sportsmanship problem.

 

Our little group is just a group of friends that play almost as a reason to just get together when we can after work or on a weekend day. Its more for hanging out than actually winning, our apocalypse games are usually on hollidays (like later today) where we go to someones house, set up a huge table and run an apoc game. We BBQ, drink, watch football (not today obviously since there are no games on :)) and generally just try and have a good time.

 

Dont get me wrong we do random games with people we dont know all the game at the gaming store, but we can quickly tell if they would fit in or not and a quick decision is made whether to play with them again or not. Point is, its not a huge deal if someone doesnt fit into what you think your games should be like, nor should it be a huge deal when you play someone that you dont enjoy playing against.

 

Not everyone can get along, its a fact of life and learning to deal with it is the biggest thing you can do. This is not to say the person wasnt being sportsman like but to be honest that has nothing to do with playing a random 40k game. He plays his way to have the best gaming experience for himself and you play yours.

 

Just my two cents, on a topic that probably is a little bit of an overreaction.

[Joah from Alberta]

I think also this is a case of personal latency. You ever have a conversation in a room full of people and someone jeers something your way and you're at a loss for words and ten minutes later you're thinking to yourself now, why didn't I say that at the time. I account this as a lapse in your personal energy at the moment. Case in point, stay awake for 36 hours and go drive your car. You'll notice people coming into your space a lot more. This is because you're tired and your field of vision is not as pronounced. Ever hear the saying that it's the people that get in the way of drunk drivers (it's true, although I do not for a moment endorse drunk driving one bit).

 

This is the case with perception. Most people do not believe that everything in this Universe can possess gravity. You tell them that light has gravity and they might believe you. If you tell them that your perception, those equivocal rays that shoot out of your eye sockets, do possess a gravity, they'll laugh themselves outta the tree. But it's true!!! I need these experiences to remind me of my major, which is the study of perception (and hopefully the accountability thereof). On the day that I played my opponent, I allowed myself to be played. I was tired, worn out. I'd played a big game the night before and my constitution just can't handle back-to-back (my bad).

 

It's very interesting really. That ones perception can be encapsulated within another perception. It happens all the time with wife beating syndrome really, well ... the next time buddy and me duel, I will don my Vader and smite my cheese upon the board so that such a stink befouls my fetid opponent. Just kidding, lighten up, next time it's going to be only two squads of 20 LSD evil deads and maybe 260 points of Khorne Termies to accompany my big T in da pimpmobile, yeah baby,

 

Cheers,

[Rain]

Hmm, I agree with those saying that there is little wrong with what he was doing, I myself often thank "the dark gods" or "the great Perturabo" when a dangerous enemy unit is decimated and see nothing wrong with my opponents praising the Emperor/Farseer/Giant Space Beetle Brain when their rolls go well, it's all part of the game, especially when playing casually. As for your recent post about perception, all I can say is that mind altering substances can lead to some odd situations :lol:

 

PS: Light does not have gravity as light is massless, and indeed not even really a particle, it is however affected by gravity as gravity is considered a curvature of spacetime created by objects with mass (but not light as it has no mass).