Callidus, it's weapons, and Complex Units

[Toogeloo]

In previous editions, what was hit was what was hit. You would roll versus each model that was wounded separately. In 5th edition, If I understand the rules correctly, you use the majority of the squads dominating statistic. So if the if you have a Toughness 4 model mixes with a bunch of Toughness 3, you roll against the 3s. The opponent then allocates the total wounds caused.

 

However, how do you do this with the Leadership trait in the case of Callidus? Does a model with a 9 Leadership attached to a unit with a bunch of 6s have to use the 6s Leadership when allocating total wounds? Or do we revert back to 4th and earlier editions and make each model save independently?

 

 

Also, does the C'Tan Phase Sword count as a one handed weapon, thus giving the Callidus 4 attacks in Close Combat (5 on the charge)? I know Neural Shredder is one handed based on the FAQ, but I didn't see any reference made to the size of the C'Tan Phase Sword.

[Gentlemanloser]

The Nural Shredder isn't a Pistol, so it doens't matter it's 1 Handed. That's a strange FAQ clarification, as it means nothing to the number of attacks a Cally can have.

 

As for rolling to wound, it's the same in 5th as it is in 4th. The Squads Ld replaces thier T and you use majority stats to figure out what to roll versus.

 

So a squad of 9 Marines (Ld8) with a Vet (Ld9) would have a majority 'toughness' when facing the shredder of 8.

[Toogeloo]

The Nural Shredder isn't a Pistol, so it doens't matter it's 1 Handed. That's a strange FAQ clarification, as it means nothing to the number of attacks a Cally can have

Actually it means a lot. The fact that it is one handed means that if the C'Tan Phase Sword is also one handed, the Callidus gets an extra CC attack. Doesn't matter if it's a pistol or not. Look at the Brazier of Holy Fire, it isn't a pistol but it grants an additional CC attack if wielded with another 1 handed weapon. It doesn't even say in the BRB that the second weapon needs to be a Pistol, it just says you need two single handed weapons to get the extra attack.

[Gentlemanloser]

Isn't it you need two single handed Close Combat Weapons?

 

Of which Pistols (although they've changed to assault in 5th :/) and the Brazier are specifically noted as being able to be used in CC.

 

Off the top of my head though, I can't think of any other one handed shooting weapons.

[Eddie Orlock]

Isn't it you need two single handed Close Combat Weapons?

Pretty much. Nothing that I've seen remotely suggests that the neuraliser is a close combat implement, even if it is one handed. Being one handed does not make it a Pistol.

[Toogeloo]

Page 42 of the BRB says normal Close combat weapons are things like chainswords, rifle butts, combat blades, bayonets, etc. It does mention Pistols, but only to say that they too get no bonus to Str or AP similar to the previously listed items. The FAQ lists the Shredder as a one handed weapon (why else would this matter), and on page 37 of the BRB a model gets +1 attack for Two Weapons if the two weapons are single handed (it does say typically a close combat and/or pistol in each hand, but the word "typically" means other weapons aren't barred).

[Charred Heretic]

The FAQ lists the Shredder as a one handed weapon (why else would this matter), and on page 37 of the BRB a model gets +1 attack for Two Weapons if the two weapons are single handed

Yes. I thought this was obvious.

(Emphasis mine.)

 

As to the "Toughness Roll", I would not use majority "Toughness" (Ld), and I would not use the squad Leader's Ld value.

I do not think this is a Ld check. It is an attack vs each model under the template. I would use individual stats only.

[Gentlemanloser]

Becasue the FAQs are notorious for thir absolute accuracy? I'd have to check the wording of the BRB as to what constitutes a CCW, but if it only matters that the wepaon you're using is 1 Handed to get the additional attack (for using two 1 handed CCWS) then cool.

 

But then what's to stop *everyone* claiming a second attack for thier two 1 handed fists?

 

It is an attack vs each model under the template. I would use individual stats only.

 

So you Template a Tac squad. Under the Template are 5 Marines and the Vet Sarge.

 

You get your opponent to roll a seperate To Wound roll versus the Sarge from the Squad? Why, there's nothing in the rules to support this. Leadership replaces the units Toughness when resisting the NS. For units with mixed toughnesses, you use the Majority Toughness for the To Wound rolls. Why would the NS be any different?

[SpideyScott]

nothing they can claim that for using 2 fists but more recent codexes like CSM says DP count as having 1 CCW when armed with only there fists. Also hammer hand states that you can do this with your fists but really is there any unit out there that is unarmed except for there fists?

 

Back to the OP yes the callidus could claim the +1 attack for 2 single handed weapons.

[Commissar Molotov]

I would think that you'd use majority Leadership in the case of the Neural Shredder. As a template weapon, the player whose squad has been targeted is allowed to take the casualties from anywhere in the squad.

[Toogeloo]

Back to the OP yes the callidus could claim the +1 attack for 2 single handed weapons

So the C'Tan Phase Sword is a one handed weapon then? I mean everything seems to elude to it, so I just wanted the reassurance that I was doing it right with 5 attacks on the charge.

[revnow]

Actually, the rules do indicate that you roll by model Ld rather than majority Ld as the neural shredder's entry says that you use the "model's" leadership, indicating that the shedder affects each model with regard to its own leadership value in the statline. It's not hugely important, just roll a different colored die with the rest. It makes sense fluff wise, as the weapon is attacking the individual mental toughness of each of the models in the squad, and so a sargaent would be better able to resist the assault.

 

My question is, does the neural shedder ignore cover?

[GTang]

It's a template weapon.

[Eddie Orlock]

My question is, does the neural shedder ignore cover?

As a template weapon, I'm pretty sure it does.

 

With all this One and Two handed weapon nonsense, has anyone checked some of the more recent non-wargear list codices to see if they still even specify this characteristic?

 

From what I recall of 40k rules in general, they're a permissive set, not a restrictive set. That is, they tell you what you can do, not what you can't. So, I'd have to go with the understanding that even if a weapon was one handed, unless it was expressly called out that it could be used in close combat, it generally couldn't be. Further, and I wish I had my books with me so I could look it up, but, I don't recall the shreadder mentioning anything about being such an implement, whereas certain other pieces of gear, like braisers of holy fire, make an explicite point of indicateing that they may be used in this capacity.

[Gentlemanloser]

Actually, the rules do indicate that you roll by model Ld rather than majority Ld as the neural shredder's entry says that you use the "model's" leadership, indicating that the shedder affects each model with regard to its own leadership value in the statline. It's not hugely important, just roll a different colored die with the rest. It makes sense fluff wise, as the weapon is attacking the individual mental toughness of each of the models in the squad, and so a sargaent would be better able to resist the assault.

 

So you do this with mixed Toughness squads, and other weapons?

 

If not, why with the Shredder, when all it's rules are, are to replace the model's Tougness values with thier Leadership for the purpose of the To Wound roll.

 

It doesn't change *how* you make the To Wound roll, just what stats are used.

 

With all this One and Two handed weapon nonsense, has anyone checked some of the more recent non-wargear list codices to see if they still even specify this characteristic?

 

Pretty sure they don't. Are Sniper Rifles 1 or 2 Handed for example? Shotguns? Etc.

 

Edit:

 

Just check the Chaos Marine Codex. Only oen I have to hand. Handedness is never mentioned, that I could find. Under the Wargear section, while it's left off the Bolt Pistol, the Plasma Pistol explicitly stats it can be used as a CCW in it's description.

[Eddie Orlock]

Under the Wargear section, while it's left off the Bolt Pistol, the Plasma Pistol explicitly stats it can be used as a CCW in it's description.

Does that mean, if someone wanted to be a RAW jerk, they could argue that Chaos marines don't get that extra swing in close combat from theri bolt pistols?

;)

I mean, it'd be kinda foolish and outside of the spirit of the game, given that they are called 'Pistols'. It'd be like when loyalist terminators couldn't move and rapidfire their combi-bolters in third ed, oh the delicious tomfoolery.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yes, yes they could! :) (Unless the BRB specifies that all Pistols can be used as CW, in which case that pat of the Plasma Pistols description is redundant)

 

It seems all that handidness is now is a restriction on some items. Things like the Eviscerator are labelled as a 2 handed CCW, that cannot get the extra attack from having a second CCW.

[SpideyScott]

BRB does say that pistols, rifle butts etc count as a CCW. A model just needs to be equipped with 2 single handed weapons in order for them to count as 2 CCWs and gain the +1 attack.

[Gentlemanloser]

What the BRB is saying there is givng general descriptions for when a unit is armed with a CCW (like Chaos Marines: Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW. What's thier CCW? Who cares, could be a big Butt, Bayonet, whatever).

 

There's nothing sugessting that all 1 Handed Weapons (that I can remember reading) are also counted as Close Combat Weapons.

 

Buy that definition, the Assault Cannon is a CCW and can be used as such. As is a Sniper Rifle. Even if you could find how many hand it's takes to use a Sniper Rifle.

 

Also, can mini's in TDA use a 2 handed CCW in one hand? The modling of them suggests so, as does thier ability to move and fire with heavy weapans. So could a TDA wearing mini use an Eviscerator as a 1 handed weapon? Can Heavy Bolters on suspensors be used as 1 handed weapons? If so, doesn't that also make the Heavy Bolter a CCW?

 

What's the point of including "This can also be used as a CCW" in a weapons description? The Chaos Space Marine Codex lists this for a PP, but doesn't say how many hands. A PP could be a 2 handed CCW and therefore not allow an extra attack.

[Heru]

What the BRB is saying there is givng general descriptions for when a unit is armed with a CCW (like Chaos Marines: Bolter, Bolt Pistol and CCW. What's thier CCW? Who cares, could be a big Butt, Bayonet, whatever).

 

There's nothing sugessting that all 1 Handed Weapons (that I can remember reading) are also counted as Close Combat Weapons.

 

Page 37 of the 5th Edition Rulebook:

Each engaged model strikes with the number of Attacks (A) on it's characteristics profile, plus the following bonus attacks:

 

* +1 Assault Bonus...

 

* +1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two single-handed weapons (typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get an +1 attack. Models with more that two weapons gain no additional benefit...

So I dunno...

[Toogeloo]

I got the answer to this question in a different forum. The C'Tan Phase Sword is a single handed weapon as is the Neural Shredder. The Callidus Assassin gets 5 attacks on the charge and 4 attacks in normal assault.

[SpideyScott]

read page 42 of the BRB that should answer all your questions. 2 handed weapons like rifles cant confer the +1 bonus when using another CCW even if that is single handed. the Callidus has 5 attacks on the charge.

[Gentlemanloser]

Please show me where the handidness of the Reaper Autocannon is listed. My Chaos Temrinator holds it in one hand...

 

It seems with the change from 'pistol' to assault 1, GW have missed this rule section of thier new edition, as they no longer define what handidness various weapons are.

 

I got the answer to this question in a different forum. The C'Tan Phase Sword is a single handed weapon as is the Neural Shredder. The Callidus Assassin gets 5 attacks on the charge and 4 attacks in normal assault.

 

Where did they find they handidness of the C'Tan blade? Or is it because the mini holds it in one hand?

 

Like my Reaper Autocannon...

 

Edit:

 

I just want to clarify what my personal stance is.

 

By deafult, I take all Close Combat Weapons as being one handed, unless otherwise descripbed. So Crosius', Power Weapons, Thunder Hammers, etc are all single handed. While the Eviscerator isn't. The Relic Blade in the new SM 'Dex should be a great example.

 

The notion of handedness is reduntant, especially in Ranged Weapons. It's a left over from Armories, and I'm sure will be phased out in newer codexes.

 

A Ranged weapon can only be used in Close Combat as a CCW, if it is so described in it's wargear entry. This used to apply to all Pistols, but the 'Pistol' catergory has been removed in 5th.

 

For the Cally, the C'Tan Blade is one handed. As it's not described as a 2 handed weapon. The Nural Shredder can't be used in Close Combat, as it's not been allowed to, regardless of the Fact it's a single handed Weapon (and would in old codexes be included in the single handed wepaon section of the armour. If it could be puchased.

 

If the DH/WH FAQ is changed to allow the NS to be used in CC (which it can't atm. It isn't a CCW at all), then unless it was also changd to be a 2 handed wepaon, the Cally would get the extra attack.

 

As for now, they don't. Regardless of the NS handidness. It just can't be used in Close Combat.

[SpideyScott]

if you use 2 single handed weapons then you get the +1 attack bonus. the Ctan blade and NS as you say are both single handed weapons so you get the bonus attack. Meaning on the charge the callidus gets 5 attacks with the ctan blade.

 

Just like people who use a power weapon and pistol to gain the +1 attack bonus, the bonus being used with the power weapon not the pistol.

 

As for the Reaper Autocannon i would say it was two handed as now where does it say otherwise. I have never gave my termies the +1 attack bonus for using 2 weapons since with GKT the second weapon is a storm bolter which is 2 handed and GKT dont get true grit.

[Toogeloo]

Where did they find they handidness of the C'Tan blade?

I was told the same thing you responded with shortly after you stated this...

 

By deafult, I take all Close Combat Weapons as being one handed, unless otherwise described

That is exactly as it was answered to me. Unless otherwise stated, a Close Combat Weapon is a one handed weapon.

 

The Neural Shredder isn't a Pistol, so it doens't matter it's 1 Handed

A very good "close" example to the Neural Shredder is the Hand Flamer. Also not a Pistol (in fact a template weapon like the shredder), it still confers an extra attack for the Seraphim wielding it since she dual wields them

 

Page 37 of the 5th Edition Rulebook:

Each engaged model strikes with the number of Attacks (A) on it's characteristics profile, plus the following bonus attacks:

 

* +1 Assault Bonus...

 

* +1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two single-handed weapons (typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get an +1 attack. Models with more that two weapons gain no additional benefit...

 

If you have the Rulebook, I would look at that page. The Neural Shredder is FAQed as also being a one handed weapon, regardless of whether or not it states it being a Close Combat Weapon as well. The rule on page 37 explicitly says the bearer just needs two one handed weapons to get the +1 attack.