Callidus, it's weapons, and Complex Units

[Heru]

Like my Reaper Autocannon...

Read it this way your Reaper Autocannon doesn't have the "is a single-handed weapon" special rule, which would allow it to count towards the two single-handed weapons rule and so isn't.

It doesn't matter if a weapon is a ranged weapon or not. If a weapon has the "is single-handed" or is a CCW or "counts as a CCW (like pistols) special rules then they count towards the two single-handed weapons = +1 attack rule.

 

And that's RAW.

[Gentlemanloser]

Hmmm yes, my bad. I did mistake the change in 5th that it only matters what handidness a weapon is to grant the extra attack, and that anything can be used in CC now.

 

Still, it's just an assumtion on my part that the C'Tan blade is one handed. I suppose in the CCW section (can't recal) it states all generic CCW are one handed?

 

Otherwise, GW really needs to define the handidness of all weapons.

 

The C'Tan blade doesn't have the one hand special rule (unless the BRB states all CCW are one handed by default), so until that's changed, and someone can find the handidness of a Reaper Autocannon, it's not unreasonable to claim that is one handed as well. Espeically when used by a Terminator.

 

Maybe that's another special rule TDA should confer. The ability to use all weapons in one hand. The big hitters have thier own restircion on attacks now, so you;d still need two Power Fists to get the +1 anyway.

 

It's definatly an area GW needs to define more.

[- 7eAL -]

Still, it's just an assumtion on my part that the C'Tan blade is one handed. I suppose in the CCW section (can't recal) it states all generic CCW are one handed?

 

Otherwise, GW really needs to define the handidness of all weapons.

 

The C'Tan blade doesn't have the one hand special rule (unless the BRB states all CCW are one handed by default), so until that's changed, and someone can find the handidness of a Reaper Autocannon, it's not unreasonable to claim that is one handed as well. Espeically when used by a Terminator.

 

Maybe that's another special rule TDA should confer. The ability to use all weapons in one hand. The big hitters have thier own restircion on attacks now, so you;d still need two Power Fists to get the +1 anyway.

 

It's definatly an area GW needs to define more.

Generic close combat weapons are one-handed. Terminators already get Terminator Honours. It seems unreasonable to allow Terminators to wield everything in one hand, since most two-weapon fighting styles require more speed and dexterity than Terminator armour would probably allow. If Terminators can't even run fast enough to make a Sweeping Advance, chances are that they can't move their arms fast enough either.

 

Since Games-Workshop has always been foolish enough to work on common-sense rules, we should take a moment to define exactly what common-sense assigns to weapons. Unless otherwise stated, we can generally assume these rules:

Two-handed:

- standard or basic firearms with the Rapid Fire profile, including shuriken catapults, lasguns, autoguns, bolters, Kroot rifles, pulse rifles, etc.

- special weapons that replace standard firearms with the Assault or Rapid Fire profile, including shotguns, flamers, plasma guns, pulse carbines, etc.

- heavy weapons that must stand and fire with the Heavy profile, including sniper rifles, heavy bolters, missile launchers, mortars, etc.

- weapons mounted on vehicles, bikes, walkers, Tau battlesuits, Necron Destroyers, etc. (even though none of these can be used in close combat)

- close combat weapons that state they are two handed or cannot be used with other weapons, including mancatchers, honour blades, lightning claws, powerfists, thunder hammers, etc.

 

One-handed:

- basic pistol firearms with the Pistol or Assault profile, including bolt pistols, shuriken pistols, laspistols, autopistols, pulse pistols, etc.

- special weapons that replace pistol firearms with the Pistol or Assault profile, including hand flamers, Inferno pistols, needle pistols, plasma pistols, etc.

- all other close combat weapons, including generic close combat weapons, power weapons, storm shields, null rods, C'tan phase swords, Nemesis force weapons, etc.

- two two-handed close combat weapons that function as a pair, including paired lightning claws, paired powerfists, paired thunder hammers, etc.

- two handed weapons that grant an additional attack under their special rules, such as Grey Knights with True Grit or Kroot with Kroot rifles, or Sisters with Sarissa upgrades.

 

Even if the Reaper autocannon has a blade on the end, it would count as a two handed weapon according to these common-sense rules that Games Workshop uses. A Chaos Terminator using a Reaper autocannon in close combat would be the same as a man strapping a BAR to his arm and trying to fight with the additional weight of the gun there - he would still be able to fight, but he wouldn't be able to move his arm fast enough to get any additional hits in. A Marine fighting with a bolter would be the same as if a man held an AR15 in one hand and fought with the other - his combat capability is still reduced because one hand is unnecessarily burdened.

[Gentlemanloser]

True Grit?

 

You're strong enough to use your Bolter in one hand. Terminator Armour is strong enough to use any weapon in one hand, if modelling is anything to go by.

 

Space Wolves still get True Grit in TDA (I also think it's non common sense and silly that GKT lose True Grit, but that's an old can of worms that doens't need to be opened again!).

 

So if TDA really does allow you to use two handed weapons with one had, then why should't you get the extra attack? Makes no odds for most normal Termies, who usually have a Power Fist. But the Sarge with his Power Weapon would get an extra attack.

[- 7eAL -]

You're strong enough to use your Bolter in one hand. Terminator Armour is strong enough to use any weapon in one hand, if modelling is anything to go by.

 

Space Wolves still get True Grit in TDA (I also think it's non common sense and silly that GKT lose True Grit, but that's an old can of worms that doens't need to be opened again!).

 

So if TDA really does allow you to use two handed weapons with one had, then why should't you get the extra attack? Makes no odds for most normal Termies, who usually have a Power Fist. But the Sarge with his Power Weapon would get an extra attack.

True Grit and using weapons in close combat isn't only about strength, it's also about being able to fight with the weapon in hand. Any ordinary Space Marine can probably shoot with a bolter in one hand, but a weapon of that size is difficult to treat as a close combat weapon and bludgeon people with using only one hand. An Imperial Guard grunt would face the same situation when carrying a lasgun, because even with a bayonet it is simply too long to use as a close combat weapon in only one hand. The same principle applies to a staff, spear or halberd, because they are all light enough to be carried in one hand but are simply impossible to use that way, because a second hand is needed for the control to fight effectively.

 

The second interpretation of True Grit means being able to fire the weapon point-blank to get extra attacks in. Since weapons are fired point-blank, they can be treated as close combat attacks anyway, without breaking the rules of "shooting in close combat". This is certainly possible with most handguns, so for this interpretation pistols grants a second close combat attack, but this is far more difficult with long guns and automatic weapons, so models with that skill are given the True Grit special rule.

 

If asked why Grey Knights who use halberds get True Grit, I believe it falls under the second interpretation which involves shooting point-blank, because a Grey Knight does not even need to occupy his hands with holding the gun. The rule says that they can use storm bolters as a close combat weapon strapped to the back of their forearm - though in truth, storm bolters are nothing like wrist blades or boxing gloves and are not good for hitting things with. However, since it is strapped to his arm rather than held in his fingers at the end of his wrist on the end of his arm, he has a much easier time aiming because there are less flexible joints in between so all he has to do is point his forearm in the right direction and pull the trigger.

 

In all cases, the necessary ability is speed. Reaction time is not one of the advertised abilities of Terminator armour - Terminator armour allows a Marine to fire heavy weapons on the move and allows a Marine to carry heavier weapons than a power armoured Marine, but it doesn't allow him the necessary agility to make a Sweeping Advance. Generally mechanisms built for raw strength will lose speed because there is more mass to move, whether it is more muscle or more hydraulics. Therefore, Terminator armour has certain speed and agility limits that prevent wearers from taking advantage of two weapons to land more hits, or aiming quickly enough to fire weapons point-blank. This is certainly a plausible reason for the inclusion of Terminator Honours as well as their blanket use of powerfists - a Marine needs to move fast enough to compensate before he can wear the armour, and if in doubt he can still rely on the strength of the powerfist to make up for the loss of agility in damage quality rather than damage quantity.

 

What Space Wolf Terminators do to keep their True Grit, I dare not say, but I believe that many of them are reckless and wild enough to fire their weapons at point blank whether they can aim or not. Bolter shells can't possibly miss completely.

[Charred Heretic]

It is an attack vs each model under the template. I would use individual stats only.

 

So you Template a Tac squad. Under the Template are 5 Marines and the Vet Sarge.

 

You get your opponent to roll a seperate To Wound roll versus the Sarge from the Squad? Why, there's nothing in the rules to support this. Leadership replaces the units Toughness when resisting the NS. For units with mixed toughnesses, you use the Majority Toughness for the To Wound rolls. Why would the NS be any different?

There's nothing in the rules to explicitly support what you're doing, either.

 

A squad's Ld can be redefined by several things: a Culexus or Pariah "changes" the Ld of a squad, then the Book of St Lucius allows you to check with the Ld of a nearby model; and I believe Templars have a Marshall who adjusts Ld for his entire army... and just too many other potential questions that I don't want to have to evaluate should they arise. If you want to, you have my blessing.

 

I'd just take the simple literal use of the Neural Shredder:

Take the Ld value from the statline and roll the dice vs Str8.

Nothing more, nothing less.

 

The purpose is to simply remove the possibility of delay.

The owning player will get a tiny benefit, +1 to one of his dice (oh wow), and in exchange I am liberated from any possibility of argument or delay. It's acceptable to me, and if the opponent wants to forfeit the +1, that's fine too.

[Gentlemanloser]

The difference is, I'm not changing the mechanics of how the to wound roll actually works as laid out in the BRB. You are.

 

A squad's Ld can be redefined by several things: a Culexus or Pariah "changes" the Ld of a squad, then the Book of St Lucius allows you to check with the Ld of a nearby model; and I believe Templars have a Marshall who adjusts Ld for his entire army... and just too many other potential questions that I don't want to have to evaluate should they arise. If you want to, you have my blessing.

 

Yeah, use a NS on a squad in range of a Cullexes and you roll your S8 versus thier modified LD of 7. It's easy, and how the rules work. (As far as I'm ware the SoB and Rites of battle only modify Ld for Moral Tests)

 

Rolling individually, for individual minis in a unit under a template, isn't part of the rules.

 

There is no delay, as you're using the Mixed Toughness rules from the main book. Roll versus Majority toughness, which is in this case represented by the Ld value.

[- 7eAL -]

A squad's Ld can be redefined by several things: a Culexus or Pariah "changes" the Ld of a squad, then the Book of St Lucius allows you to check with the Ld of a nearby model; and I believe Templars have a Marshall who adjusts Ld for his entire army... and just too many other potential questions that I don't want to have to evaluate should they arise. If you want to, you have my blessing.

Yeah, use a NS on a squad in range of a Cullexes and you roll your S8 versus thier modified LD of 7. It's easy, and how the rules work. (As far as I'm ware the SoB and Rites of battle only modify Ld for Moral Tests)

This particular point, I agree with.

 

Many strategies for using the Culexus assassin and Necron Pariahs involve taking advantage of the Soulless rule to force Leadership 7 onto units that would normally have higher, and then take advantage of the weakened Leadership to force enemies to fail psychic tests, fail Morale checks and so on. Since the Soulless rule modifier applies to Leadership and not only Morale checks, then the modification applies to all game actions that involve Leadership, including psychic tests, Pinning tests and Leadership tests as well as the Neural Shredder.

 

Of course, this also means that rules such as Marines' Rites of Battle and a Guard Officer's Leadership which modify Leadership for the purposes of Morale checks and Leadership tests do not protect units from the Neural Shredder, because the Neural Shredder's attack is neither a Morale check nor a Leadership test. Only rules which modify the unit's Leadership characteristic outright can affect the Neural Shredder - as far as I recall, only the Soulless rule can do this.

 

Also, for the purposes of the Neural Shredder's attack, the wording for the Book of Saint Lucius does not protect the Sisters of Battle from the Soulless rule. The rules for the Book only say that the Sisters roll tests on their unmodified Leadership - tests include Morale checks, Leadership tests, Pinning tests and - if the Sisters had psychic powers then it might also apply to Psychic tests. Again, since the Neural Shredder does not force a test, then the Soulless rule modifier still applies.

[Toogeloo]

The whole arguement seems rather moot considering you cant use a Culexus and a Callidus together in a standard game. But something i do want to point out is that Soulless is protected against by the Book of St Lucius. The wording RAW states that model's within 6" use the bearer's unmodified leadership. Plain and simply this means they use the number printed on the stat line only, no bonuses, no penalties, no other changes what so ever.

[- 7eAL -]

The whole arguement seems rather moot considering you cant use a Culexus and a Callidus together in a standard game. But something i do want to point out is that Soulless is protected against by the Book of St Lucius. The wording RAW states that model's within 6" use the bearer's unmodified leadership. Plain and simply this means they use the number printed on the stat line only, no bonuses, no penalties, no other changes what so ever.

I know that the Book uses unmodified Leadership. But does it say that the model uses the bearer's unmodified Leadership for all game actions involving Leadership, or does it apply to only Morale checks, Leadership tests, (and) Pinning tests? There is a significant difference when it comes to the Neural Shredder and Psychic tests.

 

The Book is not the only rule that protects units from Soulless. The Guard Leadership ability and the Marines Rites of Battle both allow a them to use another unit's Leadership to make a Morale, Leadership or Pinning test, but neither of these protects a psyker's ability to make Psychic tests. If I recall correctly, the Book has the same blind spot: it does not allow a psyker to make a Psychic test on unmodified Leadership. If the rule states that the models use unmodified Leadership for everything, then not only does it protect against the Shredder but so can an allied psyker within 6" can use unmodified Leadership to roll psychic tests against a unit of Necron Pariahs or in the presence of a Culexus assassin.

 

The argument seems moot from a list-building perspective, but once we begin to play Apocalypse games, or play against other Inquisition armies, or play against Necrons, then the same point of conflict comes up and it would be better to solve the problem here and now in discussion, rather than kick up a storm at the table when everyone gets confused.

[Toogeloo]

I know that the Book uses unmodified Leadership. But does it say that the model uses the bearer's unmodified Leadership for all game actions involving Leadership, or does it apply to only Morale checks, Leadership tests, (and) Pinning tests? There is a significant difference when it comes to the Neural Shredder and Psychic tests.

No, you are correct it is for Morale and Pinning only, but I was trying to relate the point that those should be the only times that Sisters are required to test against Leadership in standard games. I knew that you might have brought up Apocalypse which is why I keep using the term standard.

 

I am partly at fault for the confusion simply because I continually refer to Sisters (since it is their wargear item) and ignore the Inquisitors and their Psychic powers as well as the possibility of Apocalypse games using a Callidus and a Culexus at the same time.

[Gentlemanloser]

There's also a WH IL Psychic Power (Purgatus? Can't remember the name) which reduces the Leadership stat of the targetted IC by three (IIRC).

[Charred Heretic]

Yep.

And the longer this discussion goes, my point becomes further reinforced about the potential for complexity on this issue.

 

Especially when we have to differentiate if the Ld stat is changed or the Ld test is changed, as 7eal identified.

I'll take the literal RAW of the NS as a unique shooting attack, and allow a +1 to a single stat to avoid the trouble.

I can probably even position the template to avoid the veteran if I can.

Its really not a big deal.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's not complex.

 

Or rather it's as complex as templating a Warlock attached to a s sqaud of Wraithguard. Or the new Cassius to a SM squad. Or an Inquisitor attached to a PAGK squad.

 

It doesn't matter a jot if you don't drop the template on a specific mini. You use the units Majority Toughness, as usual, as the BRB outlines. Subbing out the T stats for the Ld (whatever they may be), as the weapon tells you to.

 

Anything else is just using house rules.

 

It really isn't a big deal...

[Gentlemanloser]

OK, coming back to the NS and CC use.

 

I checked the new BRB tonight. Pistols still have thier own category in the weapon list, and all Pistols can be used in Close Combat.

 

To get the extra attack, you need to be using two one handed weapons, that can be used in Close Combat.

 

While the NS might be one handed, it is not a Pistol. It's description also don't state it can be used as a Close Combat Weapon.

 

Therefore it can't. And you don't get the extra attack.

 

Also, 'standard' Close Combats Weapons aren't one handed by default. A Rifle Butt is listed as an example 'standard' CCW, and later on is listed as a Two Handed CCW specifically.

[SpideyScott]

Any weapon can be used in close combat so what does it matter if the NS isnt a pistol?

Where does it state a bolter can be used in CC or a las cannon, or how many hands they require to use?

Where does it state a power weapon is one handed in the newer codexes?

 

The NS is a one haned weapon as stated in the FAQ, if she has another one handed weapon she gets +1 attack for having 2 one handed weapons. Also she has poisioned blades which could also be said to be 1 handed CCW.

 

The phase sword is a special close combat weapon along with the NS which is a normal CCW she has 1 special and 1 normal CCW and acording to the rules she gets the +1 attack.

 

I admit it could of been faqed to be more clearer. Hopefully they will fix this and add in the other points from the WH faq to the DH faq. I think its best to discuss it with your oppent before the game.

[Gentlemanloser]

Any weapon can be used in close combat so what does it matter if the NS isnt a pistol?

 

Then why are Pistols, under the Ranged Weapon listing, specifically noted as being able to be used in Close Combat, but they add no S or AP?

 

If a mini hasn't got any specified CCW, it can still attack in CC. This can be rationalised away as punching, rifle butting, etc. But you require two Weapons, specified to be able to be used in CC, and to be single handed (That's the rule under the CCW section), to get the extra attack.

 

You can Rifle Butt with your Bolter in CC. You can Rifle butt with your Bolter in CC and shoot with your Bolt Pistol.

 

But you don't gain an extra attack for doing so.

 

Where does it state a bolter can be used in CC or a las cannon, or how many hands they require to use?

 

Exactly. They aren't CCW regardless of how many hands it takes to use them.

 

Where does it state a power weapon is one handed in the newer codexes?

 

Can't remember if the BRB description of Power Wepaons (seperate entry to generic CCW) lists the 'handidness' of them or not. I'm still open to assuming that unless otherwise stated, all CCW are one handed.

 

The NS is a one haned weapon as stated in the FAQ, if she has another one handed weapon she gets +1 attack for having 2 one handed weapons. Also she has poisioned blades which could also be said to be 1 handed CCW.

 

If a Bolter was one handed, you woldn't get the extra attack with it and a Bolt Pistol in CC. As the Bolter *cannot* be use din CC. It's not a Pistol (which has been specificed to be allowed to be use din CC), and there's no listing in the wargear entry of a Bolte that allows it's use in CC.

 

The exact same applies to the NS. If it was a Pistol, everything would be fine.

 

along with the NS which is a normal CCW

 

No, it's not. :confused:

 

Every Weapon that's usable as a CCW is either listed as so in it's wargear entry, or has a rule in the BRB (like Pistols, or Power Fists). The NS has neither, and is as much of a CCW as an Assault Cannon is.

[Heru]

To get the extra attack, you need to be using two one handed weapons, that can be used in Close Combat.

 

While the NS might be one handed, it is not a Pistol. It's description also don't state it can be used as a Close Combat Weapon.

 

Therefore it can't. And you don't get the extra attack.

You know it's really annoying when someone throws around their opinion stating it's fact and RAW and all sorts of other annoying twattle when they can't even be bothered to back it up properly with exact quotes and page numbers.

[Toogeloo]

All weapons listed in the BRB are mentioned as being "typical" weapons used in CC. They represent the most common forms of CC, they don't represent the only forms of CC. A Neural Shredder has a butt too and is classified as one handed. It isn't typical because the Callidus is the only wielder of the weapon. That doesn't disbar it from being used in CC though.

 

This has already been answered weeks ago by numerous sources including Tourney officials and people who have played the game for over a decade. The consensus has been the same, the phase sword and neural shredder are both one handed and give the Callidus +1 attack.

[- 7eAL -]

You know, it does not serve an Inquisitor well to argue against the +1 attack for two weapons. No player should willingly put himself at a disadvantage, like choosing not to use both close combat weapons for +1 attack, or choosing to roll the 4+ cover save when one should be using the better 3+ armour save.

 

It is a generally accepted fact that Callidus assassins get +1 attack for two close combat weapons, as most reasonable opponents will give an Inquisition player the benefit of this unwritten rule. Pushing RAW to squeeze dubious advantages out of the rules is unsightly (to put it mildly), but when one's opponent gives one a break on unclear rules like the Neural Shredder profile, then one should just graciously take it and keep playing. To argue against an opponent's generosity is not only disadvantageous but also rude.

[Gentlemanloser]

You know it's really annoying when someone throws around their opinion stating it's fact and RAW and all sorts of other annoying twattle when they can't even be bothered to back it up properly with exact quotes and page numbers.

 

I'm in the unfortunate position of not owning the 5th Ed rulebook. But looked at it yesterday while playing. I can't give a word for word posting, but the only reaosn I'm coming back to this is because that section stuck in my mind. It specifies you need two signle handed weapons usable in close combat. Not just to single handed weapons.

 

Heru, maybe you could be so kind as to post the entire section of that rule. It's possible I've got a diferent printing to you.

 

All weapons listed in the BRB are mentioned as being "typical" weapons used in CC/

 

No, they're not.

 

Assault Cannon's aren't typical CC weapons.

 

Every weapon that can be used in CC is either stated as so in the BRB (Pistol Rule, or a generic CCW, or a Speical CCW), or as such in thier wargear entry (like the Brazier).

 

This has already been answered weeks ago by numerous sources including Tourney officials and people who have played the game for over a decade. The consensus has been the same, the phase sword and neural shredder are both one handed and give the Callidus +1 attack.

 

Yeah and when I sterted the consensus I found in 4th allowed you to assign an AP3+ hit to a Chappy (attached to a squad of Marines) to let him use his 4+ I save. Which while general consensus, wasn't how the rules actually worked. /shrug

 

To argue against an opponent's generosity is not only disadvantageous but also rude.

 

I'm not trying to be rude here. This discussion has no bearing on how I play, nor the rules the guys I play with use. It's a rules quiery, and as such house rules sohuld be left out of it.

 

If the NS was listed as a Pistol in the FAQ, or it's description changed to include "Usable as a CCW", everything would be fine (I'd not even bother going down the C'Tan 1 handed route). But this is a grey area in the rules that GW really need to clarify.

[SpideyScott]

Could you name a single handed weapon that you cant use in CC? As far as i know every weapon can be used in CC. Also now where in the BRB does it mention if power weapons are one or two handed. The only thing that suggests power weapons are one handed in the rules is in the section to do with the +1 attack. It says if you have a special weapon and a normal one handed CCW you gaint the +1 attack. So if you had to use a special weapon weapon thats described as two handed you wouldnt get it.

[Toogeloo]

Lets make this really simple using a similar model for comparison.

 

Seraphim Hand Flamers are not Pistols, they are template special weapons. In almost every respect they are like the Neural Shredder (minus the type of damage they do). However they get 2 attacks for using them in Hand to Hand combat because they are two single handed weapons. This is no different than the Neural Shredder in any way. It is a one handed template weapon, and even though it isn't a pistol, it still a one handed weapon thus giving +1 to her attacks since she wields two one handed weapons.

[Gentlemanloser]

Seraphim Hand Flamers are not Pistols, they are template special weapons. In almost every respect they are like the Neural Shredder (minus the type of damage they do). However they get 2 attacks for using them in Hand to Hand combat because they are two single handed weapons.

 

No. They get 2 attacks in CC for them, becuase the weapon entry for the special paired hand flamers tell you they count as two CCW.

 

This is no different than the Neural Shredder in any way.

 

It is, because no where, in any rule or system, does it say the NS can be used in close combat as a CCW. Single, or additonal.

 

Could you name a single handed weapon that you cant use in CC?

 

Other than the NS? <_< I don't think so. But I feel this resolves around a grey area in the rules that's spaning multiple editions.

 

As far as i know every weapon can be used in CC.

 

Here's the important distinction. Used in CC as in a representation of the units base attacks? Or used in CC as a CCW? Otherwise, an Assault Cannon can be used alongside a Bolt Pistol as a second CCW, as it's not listed as being 2 handed anywhere, and can be used in CC. So the asumption (see below) is that as a CCW it's also one handed.

 

Also now where in the BRB does it mention if power weapons are one or two handed.

 

Can't remember if it's specificed anywhere in the specific Power Weapon enter of the CCW section. Again, I'm still open to all Specificed CCW being one haded by defaulf (which is a logical assumption, but again not specificed in RAW anywhere...).

 

The only thing that suggests power weapons are one handed in the rules is in the section to do with the +1 attack. It says if you have a special weapon and a normal one handed CCW you gaint the +1 attack. So if you had to use a special weapon weapon thats described as two handed you wouldnt get it.

 

Yeah, that's the support I'd use for the logical assumption that unless stated otherwise (like Relic Blades and Eviscerators) Power Weapons are one handed.

 

Still, by the nature of being a 'Power Weapon' as described on that page, it's a Close Combat Wepaon (a special type of CCW). The NS isn't listed anywhere as useable in CC.

 

Any weapon that can be used in CC in the Witch Hunters codex is either noted as such, or noted to be one of the special CCW types.

 

Edit:

 

A question of my own.

 

Why then are Pistols specificly noted as being able to be used in CC? Why not just say the pistol type of Ranged weapons are all one handed?

 

And more importantly, when the Brazier of Holy Fire is listed as a one handed wepaon in the WH armory, why does it's description say it can be used as a CCW? Surely that's a given, if all one handed weapons are also close combat weapons?

[Toogeloo]

It is, because no where, in any rule or system, does it say the NS can be used in close combat as a CCW. Single, or additonal.

It doesn't say anywhere that the Storm Bolter on a Rhino in the Daemonhunter Codex is Pintle Mounted either, but that doesn't stop people from playing it with a 360 degree line of fire. There are certain things that the writers assume people can figure out on their own. If a Rhino in the Space Marine codex has a Pintle Mounted Storm Bolter, you can assume it is the same for the Daemonhunter. Just like if they tell you in a FAQ that the Neural Shredder is a one handed weapon, the only reason this would matter is if it was necessary information for Close Combat. A certain degree of logic and intelligence can plainly show that the rules point to it being a one handed weapon for the purposes of resolving close combat attacks. The writers do not (and should not) need to spell every single thing out and in many cases, some things that could be confusing can be cleared up with a little bit of logic.

 

And more importantly, when the Brazier of Holy Fire is listed as a one handed wepaon in the WH armory, why does it's description say it can be used as a CCW? Surely that's a given, if all one handed weapons are also close combat weapons?

The entire entry is used to explain what the item is because it is not a "typical" weapon. It even says it is an artifact and it is similar to what the Sacred Incense looks like that the Daemonhunters use. The difference is that the Daemonhunter's Sacred Incense is not usable as a weapon and more as a wargear item.