Daemons fighting Grey Knights

[highmarshalHelbrecht]

I'm going to challenge a friend in a battle against his Grey Knights. He has been saying that Daemons can't win against Grey Knights because GKs hunt daemons. I want to try to prove him wrong in a 750 pt game. I'm trying to come up with a list that would not completely be useless. One thing is I want to try to beat him in close combat as much as possible.

 

I was thinking about a Lord of Change to fry them at range along with a small squad of Flamers. For the Troops would be a mix of Bloodletters and Daemonettes to chop him up in HtH.

 

So it would look something like this:

 

HQ

Lord of Change

 

Elites

4 Flamers

 

Troops

10 Bloodletters-Instrument, Chaos Icon

10 Daemonettes-Instrument, Chaos Icon, Transfixing Gaze

 

What do you guys think?

[Captain Malachi]

Skip the deamonettes, they'll die too quick, get more bloodletters, and a lord of change is too expensive in a game that small, try some heralds instead. Oh, and knowing what he's taking might help?

[Inquisitor_Fox]

use 2 heralds of slaanes with pavane, moving the grey knights within charge range for those blood letters

[solkan]

Tactically, I would suggest splitting your flamers into two squads. I'd also consider taking a herald instead of the greater demon and spending the other points on either flesh hounds or fiends at that number of points.

 

Against grey knights, you're going to want to decide want to do about the Daemonic Infestation rule, since it refers to 'Sustained Attack' in the 4th edition rules. Allowing the reinforcements to move onto the table from anywhere on the table edges as long as its outside of his deployment zone is probably the simplest adjustment for the new deployment methods.

[eyescrossed]

Feel No Pain will be your friend, so I'd take some Plaguebearers.

[Ian Hockert]

Bloodletters are a bad idea against Grey Knights as you go last the turn you charge due to GKs making you take a difficult terrain check for assaulting them. I would definitely recommend plaguebearers for anchor points and you may also want to bring a Soul Grinder or two as Phlegm will put some serious hurting on them.

[highmarshalHelbrecht]

Yeah about that whole plaguebearers, I don't have any. I don't even have a soulgrinder yet. All I have to pick from is 20 Bloodletters, 20 Daemonettes, 8 Flamers, 9 Horrors, 10 screamers, and a lord of change and bloodthirster. So with that in mind what should I do?

[Lode]

Ok now that I have your total units to work with... we can advise you better :yes:

 

First, for HQ, I would definitely pick the Lord of Change over the Bloodthirster. He's more versatile, with his shooting attacks, good tank-busting capabilities (being a MC), and his Soul Devourer gift compensate for his lower strength when fighting multi-wounds models. Give him an Instrument of Chaos (since I'm guessing he'll be safer in combat instead of risking receiving Psycannon shots)

 

For troops, I would try to saturate him as much as possible by giving him many units to fire at, thus splitting his fire. 4 units of 5 Bloodletters would be good.

 

As far as elites go, I would definitly put a unit of 3 flamers in play. They have a great potential to cause many causalities.

 

With the rest of the points, if you know he's tank-heavy, bring in 4 Screamers and give one Unholy Might. If he doesn't field so many tanks, you might be better with a few Horrors (with Changeling if possible) to force as many saves as possible (he's bound to miss a few).

 

Good luck!

[Captain Malachi]

Bloodletters are a bad idea against Grey Knights as you go last the turn you charge due to GKs making you take a difficult terrain check for assaulting them.

 

They also have power weapons, just wanted to point that out.

[Lode]

Ah, didn't know about that difficult terrain check to assault GKs... then, you might be better off with Daemonettes instead of Bloodletters. They come equipped with Offensive and Defensive grenades so won't be stuck at attacking last, and with more attacks, higher initiative, fleet and rending, they should do a fine job too... Give one Transfixing Gaze in each unit, and that's one less attack coming your way (or 2 or 3 less if more than one Daemonettes unit charges the same GKs squad :lol: )

[Inquisitor_Fox]

Give one Transfixing Gaze in each unit, and that's one less attack coming your way (or 2 or 3 less if more than one Daemonettes unit charges the same GKs squad :yes: )

 

i hadn't thought of that tactic before... hmmm the possibilities grow!!

[highmarshalHelbrecht]

Wow, I just reread the rule again about assaulting Grey Knights via the Rites of Exorcism rule. They could put a hold on if I really want to assault them a whole lot. The Daemonettes would shine in this aspect over the Bloodletters, the only thing is can they really rely on the Rending rule to pull them through combat?

 

So I thought of 2 list built of from the suggestions I received so far.

 

First one is with the lord of change, it focuses more on shooting than assaulting:

 

HQ

Lord of Change

 

Elites

3 Flamers

3 Flamers

 

Troops

5 Daemonettes-Transfixing Gaze

5 Daemonettes-Transfixing Gaze

8 Pink Horrors

 

This second is still more of a shooty list I think but still has a chance to it worth while in assault. As you can see there is the 3 units of slaanesh that give it some really good killing power in HtH. With those 3 transfixing gazes it's really going to hurt the Grey Knights in assualt.

 

HQ

Herald of Tzeentch-Bolt of Tzeentch, Mastery of Sorcery

Herald of Slaanesh-Transfixing Gaze

 

Elites

4 Flamers

4 Flamers

 

Troops

8 Pink Horrors

6 Daemonettes-Transfixing Gaze

7 Daemonettes-Transfixing Gaze

 

Any other C&C are welcomed they all have help me so far!

[Godhead]

I am not a super huge fan of the daemonetts. If they dont get into cc right away, then mine tend to get shot all to hell. I am a fan of the bloodletters against PA or TDA marines. I much prefer making them roll the invuln save from the hellblades from every attack vs hoping for rending, especially now in 5th ed, I dont seem to rend nearly as often. You might go for a squad of daemonettes and a squad of bloodletters. You could use the daemonttes to tie up the grey knights until your bloodletters can charge in to do clean up. It's too bad you don't have a Daemon Prince or something with iron hide. Blood crushers would be awesome. Psycannons really do hurt alot.

[Primarch Naogedd]

The only problem is, as was covered earlier in the thread, that Bloodletters have to take Difficult Terrain tests to charge Grey Knights, and since they don't have grenades they'd strike last. The point was, because Daemonettes have grenades, they would not strike last, and that the rending would easily kill enough to make sure that a return strike wouldn't be too nasty.

[Inquisitor_Fox]

i would still suggest pavane, especially as it will help counter the issue of, getting the Daemonettes into combat ASAP as it will allow you to move a unit just that little bit closer... lol

 

As for which grey knights have power weapons, Power armored squad leaders, all terminators & HQ... also EVERY Grey knight is S6 in CC if they have a nemesis force weapon (but if they are toting a special weapon then they loose that).

 

Don't be afraid to engage em in HtH as they are primarily a Shooty army, whatever people think, thats how they work. I know, i have a 1500 pt pure army. You shoot em to drop numbers then pin em down for HtH to finish 'em off.

 

- So pavane is a useful power for heralds to have, 'cos it allows you to move enemy units into more favourabel places, like closer to your assault units and any unit with Daemonic Gaze so its easier to see past the shrouding, thought don't worry about that too much as the average is about 31",

 

- Anything anti-MeQ is ace, Daemonic Gaze etc.

 

- Plague Beares, if you have em, are gonna last the distance 'cos psycannons are gonna ignore your inv. saves and feel no pain is is a damned useful counter to this,

 

- Watch out for Psycannons, Incinerators and the Psycannon Bolts wargear, they all ignore inv saves.

 

If your mate takes a Grand master, just stay away from him and focus on his troop units, as the GM is a massive points sink and a waste of time except he could prove nasty in HtH against anything multi wound.

 

Terms are another to stay out of HtH with as all likely hood is Holocaust at the end of combat could see you loosing a few guys which adds the the combat resolution.

 

Love the Flamers, even a land raider is likely to have issues if you hit it with four glancing hits a turn, especially if you can get multiple weapon destroyed/ imobilised results which, when stacked, can result in a wreck, don't knock glancing hits. Also wounding on a 4+, ignoring armour, use these guys against those pesky terminators if you can get close enough without being wiped out... as that will really annoy any MeQ player... hmmmm, ignoring Sv 2+, drool!!!

 

Might i also suggest the Changeling for +5 points in your Horrors squad as he can remove a squad from firing for the turn or at least have the chance of them shooting at their own unit with the Glmour of Tzeentch ability (the GKs still get effected by this as it is a leadership test not a moral test they has to take it, two finger salute to Fearless!!)

 

Also upgrade a horror with the Bolt of Tzeentch as it is an AP1 attack you get +1 on the damage table meaning you can still kill on a glancing hit (admmitedly with a six :wacko: )

 

to be honest i would try to crowbar a Monstrous Creature in their somewhere, probably a Daemon Prince;

a) for the 2d6 armour pen roll, allowed per attack that hits, with 4A that shouldn't be too hard to do, especially if you take Unholy Might (S6 anyone, + average roll of 7 = 13 so about 1/3 will damage landraider, more than 1/2 anything else)

'cos he also ignores armour saves in HtH and gets to attack first Vs anything other than a GM. His WS 7 means 3+ to hit Vs those annoying Ws5 GKs, hopefully you should be able to take down any small PaGKs Squad with this guy on his own during the charge, (5A, 3+ to hit [66%], 2+ to kill [83.33% of hits] which equals 2, almost three a turn, plus the squad having already weakened by Daemonic Gaze, 2+ to hit [83.33%] , 3+ to kill [66%] which equals 1, even two a turn if lucky, so thats a5 man squad if they dice gods are with you)

c) also, daemon princes tend to draw fire away from your scoring units

 

any hows that my $50 worth... lol :tu:

[Grinshanks]

If your opponent knows he's doing with grey knights he'll be packing a shooty army. If this is the case then (i know its been said but its worth saying again) plague bearers are your friend! Grey knights pack plenty of anti personnel firepower (lotsa storm bolters) and some of that firepower are the ever present psycannons, wich of course ingore inv saves. This is why plague bearers are a must, they are the only basic troop that will get any sort of save against psycannons.

 

However although you should take them, plague bearers are below average on the offensive against grey knights. They are WAY too slow, and the way GK are played you will never catch up to them. The GK player will keep retreating while shooting back. Plague bearers NEED to be supported. PlagueB are the objective grabbers who sit on the objective and refuse to move B)

 

I strongly suggest suicide units of flamers. Normally these guys are a bit so-so against other armies (although i love em), deepstrike next to unit, utterly destroy unit, get completely destroyed by the rest of the army in the following turn! However against GK they really are the bees knees, the low model count of the GK means every unit lost is a major blow and especially if its the psycannonweildingexpensiveashell terminator squad. No armour save, 4+ to wound, auto hit and given the low model count means chances are, the GK terms are toast! and even if you lose you 3 man squad of flamers, you lose a tiny fraction of what they just did!

 

I would also go for a soul grinder (although i dislike the model), as i said earlier grey knights have alot of anti personnel but not so much anti armour. Combined with your bloodthirster he will have the difficult choice of focusing his fire on either the wing cc monster of doom or the walking tank of nasty firepower!

 

i would go on but my lunch is up so i've gotta get back to work ^_^

 

hope i've helped at all

[Sons of Horus]

do anything it takes to kill his troops before they can have the chance to attack.

[Gentlemanloser]

I've finally got to the stage where I'm the only one out of our group that consistantly wins versus the Daemon army. and that's with amy GK army.

 

Some observation from both sides of the fence (And I def agree the GK must go shooty, no assaulting with your NFW!)

 

Bloodletters are too fragile versus the Grey Knights. Too much Stormbolter fire, which should be able to hit you no matter where you DS to (deployment etc aside). Psycannons and Incinerators hurt.

 

What's worse, are Dreadnoughts with Incinerators. There's not mauch, bar some Dameon Princes that can stand up to a Dreadnought.

 

Daemons need to get a prefered cohort down, with durable Troops. You need to close and tie up the GK squads in CC asap, then DS off icons around them.

 

The last game I played, the unprefered cohort came in, and one 'letter squad DSed off board and I got to reposition them. Far away and on the other side of the Board. Lined up to get Strombolted by a 10 man Squad.

 

Because the army was spread out around me, I had the luxury of obliterating a squad of 'letters on the first turn, and putting wounds on the Skulltaker and his two 'crusher retinue. then because I wasn't tied up in CC, I retreated each round and blasted units that DSed in.

 

On the other hand, Flamers are sick. A squad of three DSed off a 'crusher icon, then caused 8 wounds to a 10 man squad that you get no cover, nor Armoru save for. >_< If he had had a second squad of those, instead of horrors, I would have been toast. Granted, they got obliterated in my turn, even by the two remianing GKs of the squad, but damn, they're sick.

 

The other thing to use are Deamon Princes of Nurgle. Our Daemon player has now vowed only to play me if he fields three of these. They're terryfing to face. And about the only things (bar Soulgrinders, which are also especially hard for GKs to face... Damn 13 Armour!) that can deal with Incernator totting Dreads.

 

I would Incinerator a squad of 'Letters, then charge them with a Dread to tie them up. He'd spent the points to give one 'letter Rending, but it's not really good enough. Especially now you don't lose a CC attach if you're shaken.

 

Daemonettes and Pavane don't really work. You still suffer from that turn of not being able to get into the safety of CC, and the T3 of the Dameonettes will show when you face a 20 shot Stormbolter volley.

[L0NEW0LF]

Bloodletters are a bad idea against Grey Knights as you go last the turn you charge due to GKs making you take a difficult terrain check for assaulting them.

 

i dont agree with this as they are not actually in cover of any sort.

the rule just states you "must roll dice for your assault range."

showing its 2d6 pick the highest like difficult terrain but they arnt actually in any cover so you dont automatically go last.

[Gentlemanloser]

The rule states you roll for the assault range, like a difficult terrian test. The assault rules then say if you have to roll a difficult terrain test (mentions nothing about cover here) when you charge, you go last unless you've got offensive grenades.

 

'Letters don't have offensive grenades, and have to roll a difficult terrain test to charge Grey Knights.

[Vlâdvar The Destroyer]

a Herald of Khorne on a juggernaught + Blessing of the blood god & maybe a DP with Blessing too... or some flesh house a 2+ Inv vs Psychic powers & force Weapons is a must have, also in a bigger game, a Keeper of Secrets would be nice cuz of its high Inative

[Gentlemanloser]

The 2+ Save is only for wounds cause by Psychic Powers, so do nothing versus the only Power You'd need it for, Sanctuary. Also Force Weapons do nothing versus Deamons, as they now casue Instant Death and all Daemons are Eternal Warriors.

 

So you never have to worry about them.

[Inquisitor_Fox]

and anyway, in a Daemonhunter army it is only the grandmaster, stern, and inquisitors which can have em...

 

Played a Tau army in a 1000pt game with Daemons on Friday and wiped em out... i can honestly say that plague bearers and Beasts of Nurgle are awesome, feel no pain just means they take it and take it, and having poison weapons, allowing a 4+ to wound and a re-roll if you S is equal to or greater then you opps T is fantastic, makes up for fighting at I 2. My Beasts ate a squad of fire warriors and two crisis suits and i only took one wound the entire time.

 

I also fielded 2 of the Slaaneshi heralds and i found that they are very weak to shooting, the best way to combat this for them is to attach em to a squad though i think i will replace em with nurgle heralds.

 

Daemonettes have the same issue with shooting so go for Massive squads, max out mate, we can feild up to twenty as a block (280 points admittedly).... this would also make those plague bearers unstoppable (300 points)! With these squads also have em arrive as a second wave after your nurgle'ness and attack units the other units are holding up.

[eyescrossed]

The rule states you roll for the assault range, like a difficult terrian test. The assault rules then say if you have to roll a difficult terrain test (mentions nothing about cover here) when you charge, you go last unless you've got offensive grenades.

 

'Letters don't have offensive grenades, and have to roll a difficult terrain test to charge Grey Knights.

This is when things get messed up.

I don't think they intended this, and it's an example of abusing RAW if you use it.

 

Bad word taken away, rememeber we are a family site so please don't try get around this

Insane Psychopath

[Lode]

I don't think they intended this, and it's an example of abusing RAW if you use it.

 

Whether they intended this or not, or that you agree with it or not, it IS RAW. Same happens with models with Feel No Pain (EDIT: Yeah, of course I meant Slow and Purposeful instead of FNP!! :P Sorry!) when they assault, even if they don't actually assault through cover. Models only have to roll a difficult terrain roll while assaulting (whatever what triggered that roll).