Daemons fighting Grey Knights

[Gentlemanloser]

Slow and Purposefuly, not FNP. ;)

 

And units cought by a new Thunderfire Undergound Burst.

 

The going last is no longer dependant on moving thorugh cover, but being your charge being slowed, by any means.

 

Be it S&P, Thunderfire or the GK special rule.

 

The other side is that units that ignore the difficult terrain roll (like harlequins) no longer require assault grenades, and never have to worry about an Initiative penalty for assaults.

 

If this isn't intended, and it's a problem/sympton more diverse than just trying to 'abuse' a GK special rule when they get little else versus Dameons now, then it's just another thing GW needs to clarify with this new Edition.

[nurglez]

i was about to disagree with this statement, but having read the rule book, i see how it works, and will now be aware of this when facing my friend's daemon army :jaw: yes grey knights are nasty vs daemons, soul grinder with phelgm works wonders, as well as things with an armor save. though in 750 points there really shouldnt be too many troops either, as they are damn expensive, 275 points for 10 of em including a justicar but not including special weps.

 

i would say, flamers/soulgrinders and a plaguebearer squad or 2 plus what ever else u can fit in. as fnp still works against psycannons/incinerators.

[Wolf89]

The 2+ Save is only for wounds cause by Psychic Powers, so do nothing versus the only Power You'd need it for, Sanctuary. Also Force Weapons do nothing versus Deamons, as they now casue Instant Death and all Daemons are Eternal Warriors.

 

So you never have to worry about them.

 

Remember though it can still wound you (force weapon) and having that 2+ instead of a 4+ or 5+ against it is really worth it.

 

As for getting back OT, I suggest skarbrand with masses of daemonettes.

[Captain Malachi]

Yeah, that 2+ save is invaluable.

[Gentlemanloser]

The 2+ Save is only versus wounds caused by Psychic powers. Normal hits by a Force Weapon aren't a Psychic Power (It's power is to Casue Instant Death, which casues no wounds), so you don't get a 2+ from it.

 

The recent FAQs have made the GK a terrible army for Daemons to face.

 

Our Force Weapon are back to killing outright, so it bypasses your Eternal Warrior (and the 2+ Khorne save, as it casues no wounds), and we can cast Sanctuary from inside a Land Raider, with the Bubble of "Har Har you lose Deamons" extending from all around the LRs Hull.

 

And let's not forget Mystics to force you to either DS away from the GK (safer for them and they get more shooting at you) or suffer a Free round of Psycannons shots at you.

 

Good luck facing any DH army, I think this has become too much of an unbalanced matchup.

[Wolf89]

The 2+ Save is only versus wounds caused by Psychic powers. Normal hits by a Force Weapon aren't a Psychic Power (It's power is to Casue Instant Death, which casues no wounds), so you don't get a 2+ from it.

 

The recent FAQs have made the GK a terrible army for Daemons to face.

 

Our Force Weapon are back to killing outright, so it bypasses your Eternal Warrior (and the 2+ Khorne save, as it casues no wounds), and we can cast Sanctuary from inside a Land Raider, with the Bubble of "Har Har you lose Deamons" extending from all around the LRs Hull.

 

And let's not forget Mystics to force you to either DS away from the GK (safer for them and they get more shooting at you) or suffer a Free round of Psycannons shots at you.

 

Good luck facing any DH army, I think this has become too much of an unbalanced matchup.

 

Seems odd that it would be worded that way... I'll have to look into it but I'm too lazy right now.

 

As for the whole DH army being better thing, I play pure khorne zilla so I have lots of armor saves against those psycannons.

 

I have to admit though, they did make DH's better at killing daemons... about time.

[Wolf89]

After reviewing both the DH codex, the Chaos Daemons Codex, the DH FAQ, and the BBB it's quite clear that everything you said is false... let me elaborate.

 

First your argument about the FAQ giving you back some bypass to eternal warrior that you never had in the first place is false, and there is no bypassing our eternal warrior.

 

Second, we do get a 2+ save against the force weapon's wounds (note this is the wounds caused by the force weapon, not the wielder's psychic attack afterwards which has no effect on us).

 

So I'm not sure if you don't know the wording of Blessing of the blood god, so for you I'll post it gladly so we can discuss this more. <_<

 

The Daemon wears a heavy studded collar or similar ornament as a symbol of Khorne's protection against magic. The Daemon has a 2+ invulnerable save against wounds caused by psychic powers or force weapons.

 

/discuss ;)

[Captain Malachi]

Oh thank God, I was worried for a minute there, thanks for clearing that up Wolf89.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Wolf89 Posted Yesterday, 01:00 AM

Second, we do get a 2+ save against the force weapon's wounds (note this is the wounds caused by the force weapon, not the wielder's psychic attack afterwards which has no effect on us).

 

Our force weapons were FAQ'd recently, and they do still work against Daemons because Codex supersedes rulebook. Guess there's some benefit to using an outdated codex. :unsure:

But, since the Grand Master is the only one who actually HAS a proper force weapon, I shouldn't worry too much about that.

 

Beware RAW, as it could be taken to mean that Rites of Exorcism reduces your Initiative to 1 because you count as assaulting into cover - its best to agree with your opponent first on what to do about that.

 

Psycannons will be your main problem.

 

Hope that helped, I'm just off to my own execution for revealing Inquisitorial secrets . . .

[Captain Malachi]

Quick question, and I'm hoping I'm wrong, but would it be possible to claim the 2+ save against all Grey Knight CC attacks because they are nemesis force weapons? Please prove me wrong.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

No, nice try. They don't follow the normal rules for force weapons, they grant +2 Strength, if you are a Justicar or above they count as power weapons too, If you are a Grand Master it counts as a Force weapon too. The only thig you could get your 2+ save against would be the Instant Daeth ability of the force weapon, as that requires a psychic test.

[Captain Malachi]

Good, it just occured to me this morning and I thought "oh god, please don't let that be right".

[Wolf89]

Wolf89 Posted Yesterday, 01:00 AM

Second, we do get a 2+ save against the force weapon's wounds (note this is the wounds caused by the force weapon, not the wielder's psychic attack afterwards which has no effect on us).

 

Our force weapons were FAQ'd recently, and they do still work against Daemons because Codex supersedes rulebook. Guess there's some benefit to using an outdated codex. ;)

But, since the Grand Master is the only one who actually HAS a proper force weapon, I shouldn't worry too much about that.

 

Beware RAW, as it could be taken to mean that Rites of Exorcism reduces your Initiative to 1 because you count as assaulting into cover - its best to agree with your opponent first on what to do about that.

 

Psycannons will be your main problem.

 

Hope that helped, I'm just off to my own execution for revealing Inquisitorial secrets . . .

 

I looked and looked (a Daemonhunters player myself) and I saw nothing in the FAQ about it. When I read C:DH I see what you're talking about ( I skimmed quickly over the dex the first time and didn't see it said "normal rules for using psychic powers apply" and assumed the rest was referring to the BBB but since it doesn't I agree with you.

 

Still... need 4's to hit and to wound... then a 2+ but who knows... you might get lucky.

 

I still don't mind paying my 5 points to negate things like mindwar which is funny. :P And if I ever face a psycher with a force weapon I don't sweat it, but if it's DH's I'll be a little more leary ok? ;)

[highmarshalHelbrecht]

I can't believe this is still going on. It seems like ages ago since I started this thread. Yes the Blessing of the Blood God DOES work against ALL Force Weapons. Why? Because the Blood God says so(on page 74 on the Daemons Codex, and on page 50 of the Main rulebook v5!) So that should clear up anymore GK shenanigans.

 

Alright, here's the lessons I learned from fighting the grey knights.

 

#1Psycannons suck. These things absolutely cute through almost everything you can field. I don't care what the unit is it will die! Obvious exceptions is the big guys, Bloodthirster, Soul Grinder anyone big and scary.

 

#2 Take basic troops en mass. Yeah it could be scary seeing 3 squads of 5 Bloodletters, but I think a mob of 15 is way better. It's funny you would think well thats 3 scoring units. NO! When 2 squads die to grey knights shooting you still only have 1 scoring unit!!

 

#3 When the big boys come on the field, it turns into EVERYONE SHOOT THE BLOODTHIRSTER!! That's what happened, my guy took 3 squads before he died to the last stormbolter round. Mind you he took out a Grand Master and his 3 termie pals right before that! Well worth the points I'd say.

 

#4 Take the big guys! Nothing says F-u have a nice day grand master and retinue than a bloodthirster or any other Greater Daemon for that matter.

 

So I say that how I had my army for the battle I walk all over the DHs thanks to key Daemons. 1:Bloodthirster, 2: Pink Horrors, 3: Bloodletters. I did end up winning for the shear fact that I was able to take out his scoring units a lot faster than he was able to take out mine. For one I had one left on the objective and his was in a middle of a field. If he hadn't used all his squads to shoot the bloodthirster, than my last one would have been gone.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Wolf89 Posted Today, 01:55 PM

I looked and looked (a Daemonhunters player myself) and I saw nothing in the FAQ about it. When I read C:DH I see what you're talking about ( I skimmed quickly over the dex the first time and didn't see it said "normal rules for using psychic powers apply" and assumed the rest was referring to the BBB but since it doesn't I agree with you.

 

Whoops, should have made this clear. Its actually the latest FAQ they've done, the DA FAQ, which states that for all armies Codex still supersedes Rulebook.

 

highmarshalHelbrecht Posted Today, 03:04 PM

I can't believe this is still going on. It seems like ages ago since I started this thread. Yes the Blessing of the Blood God DOES work against ALL Force Weapons. Why? Because the Blood God says so(on page 74 on the Daemons Codex, and on page 50 of the Main rulebook v5!) So that should clear up anymore GK shenanigans.

 

Yes, it does work against all force weapons, but the problem here is that GW named them all Nemesis Force Weapons, when the Grand Master's NFW is the only one that actually is a proper force weapon. If its not the psychic test Instant Death ability that normal force weapons have, then its not a "proper" force weapon. You don't get a 2+ save against every wound caused by GKs in close combat!

There's as much shenanigans on this end as on the DH end. B)

[Mal]

in such a small point scale, you will find playing GK little different to fighting a regular SM army, it will be slightly smaller, but pack more of a punch against inv saves is all... its the large scale games when the GK player can afford to buy a few extras to really annow deamons that you suffer.

[Primarch Naogedd]

Well, the way I see it, BotBG only affects the GKGM's NFW, and the force weapon of any inquisitor you take. You also get the save against Scourging and any other offensive psychic power.

 

Simple as that.

 

~EDIT~ Just forgot, my opinion goes that Plaguebearers get FNP against psycannon shots.

[Wolf89]

FnP doesn't work against AP1, or 2 and anything that ignores armor saves, so of course PB's get the FnP rule, since the psycannon doesn't meet those requirements.

[highmarshalHelbrecht]

highmarshalHelbrecht Posted Today, 03:04 PM

I can't believe this is still going on. It seems like ages ago since I started this thread. Yes the Blessing of the Blood God DOES work against ALL Force Weapons. Why? Because the Blood God says so(on page 74 on the Daemons Codex, and on page 50 of the Main rulebook v5!) So that should clear up anymore GK shenanigans.

 

Grand Master Tyrak Posted Today, 01:11 PM

Yes, it does work against all force weapons, but the problem here is that GW named them all Nemesis Force Weapons, when the Grand Master's NFW is the only one that actually is a proper force weapon. If its not the psychic test Instant Death ability that normal force weapons have, then its not a "proper" force weapon. You don't get a 2+ save against every wound caused by GKs in close combat!

There's as much shenanigans on this end as on the DH end. :D

 

Yeah so the issues is....

Sorry should been more clear that I was referring to the notion that I didn't want my Greater Daemon dieing to a Instant Death ability.

 

You still have 2+ str Power weapons or whatever the little chart entails you have for your men. The Bloodthirster only calls on his Blessing of the Blood God rule when GK grandmaster call on the psyhic test to use the force weapons ability to Instant Kill. Any other time it's a power weapon as I pointed to the pg 50 reference to the Main Rulebook. Don't get this confused we're both right, I just want to make sure other people don't get this confused.

 

GK shenanigans continues.....

[Gentlemanloser]

After reviewing both the DH codex, the Chaos Daemons Codex, the DH FAQ, and the BBB it's quite clear that everything you said is false... let me elaborate.

 

First your argument about the FAQ giving you back some bypass to eternal warrior that you never had in the first place is false, and there is no bypassing our eternal warrior.

 

BBB.

 

Specific rules for Psychic Powers are detailed in Codexes. The 'Kill Outright' of a Force Weapon is a Psychic Power (requires a Psychic test, can be nulified by a Psychic hood).

 

Therefore, the Psychic Power detailed in the DH Codex given by a DH Force Weapon (either one purchased in the Armour, or a NFW used by a GM or Stern) Kill Outright, as per the codex rules, and do not inflict ID.

 

Even ignoring the new DA Codex (claiming that the mention of Codex trumping BBB doesn't apply here becuase it's a DA codex) this still applies.

 

(Edit: There's always the recent 5th Ed FAQ that nudges the whole use Codex over BBB for everything rule with the rededication of Transports... "that overrules the general rule int he rulebook, as normal". Here's a generic FAQ for all armies that implies that Codex rules 'normally' over rule BBB rules.)

 

Second, we do get a 2+ save against the force weapon's wounds (note this is the wounds caused by the force weapon, not the wielder's psychic attack afterwards which has no effect on us).

 

So I'm not sure if you don't know the wording of Blessing of the blood god, so for you I'll post it gladly so we can discuss this more. ^_^

 

The Daemon wears a heavy studded collar or similar ornament as a symbol of Khorne's protection against magic. The Daemon has a 2+ invulnerable save against wounds caused by psychic powers or force weapons.

 

/discuss ;)

 

Cool, I wasn't aware of the end of that. I'd still argue that the save is for the wounds caused by the 'Kill Outright' (or ID in other force weapons), as Force Weapons are used as Power Weapons if you don't use thier inbuilt Psychic Power. But by RAW you would seem to get a 2+ versus any wounds done by a FW.

[Mal]

No I disagree, a force weapon now is actually just a power weapon with a psychic abality contained within it, if you do not use that psychic abality (i.e. used another psychic abality that turn) then the force weapon counts as a power weapon... and that rule does not apply to power weapons, so you'll get a +2 str power weapon, but NOT the force weapon part, unless you want them getting a 2+ inv save...

[Wolf89]

Can we all agree that the force weapon ONLY, and I need to make this clear apparently... ONLY causes a wound ... A WOUND when it's first used as a power weapon?... good... that's what I thought... now when you read what the collar does, "2+ invulnerable save against wounds caused by..."... a force weapon doesn't cause wounds by the psychic attack... only the power weapon attack...

 

Even looking at the DH codex (as you guys refer too for your force weapon rules), it refers to the WOUNDING first then psychic test after which just kills outright... note also that the text only says "and are treated as a power weapon" not "refer to power weapon rules"...

 

Look at this as well... "Nemesis Force Weapons"... for those of you who keep saying the GNGM uses the rules for force weapons in the C:DH's are doing something wrong I believe... explaining it shows they have an equivalent to a power weapon and a force weapon... the codex only has rules for force weapons... why? well because force weapons are a separate weapon entry in the DH armoury which ONLY Inquisitors and Inquisitor Lords can have... not GNGM... so only use the force weapon rules as per C:DH's for the FORCE WEAPON, not Nemesis force weapon... they are two separate pieces of weaponry...

 

I think we need to move this over to DH section so we can get more DH's to explain to me why I'm wrong because I'm still not understanding...

 

-edit-

 

I forgot to mention, even in 4th ed. rules (when codex was made), it backs up my statement about the only wounding period is before the psychic test and "allowing any invulnerable saving throws the victim might have"...

 

Why would GW give this wargear the ability to make a save against a wound, where no wound is caused? The only place to save is before the psychic test...

 

Also making reference to the BBB negates your ability to kill the daemons outright, so stick to your C:DH's if you want that ability and make your argument there... if you start using the BBB for force weapons then you've just made me happy...

[Gentlemanloser]

Look at this as well... "Nemesis Force Weapons"... for those of you who keep saying the GNGM uses the rules for force weapons in the C:DH's are doing something wrong I believe... explaining it shows they have an equivalent to a power weapon and a force weapon... the codex only has rules for force weapons... why? well because force weapons are a separate weapon entry in the DH armoury which ONLY Inquisitors and Inquisitor Lords can have... not GNGM... so only use the force weapon rules as per C:DH's for the FORCE WEAPON, not Nemesis force weapon... they are two separate pieces of weaponry...

 

Because the Codex has no rules for Power Weapons, we use the general rules for Power Weapons explained in the BBB. The Force Weapon properties are taken from the Force Weapon entry in the Codex Armoury.

 

That over rules the Force Weapon entry in the BBB due to many varied factors. The Psychic Power section of the BBB, taking lead from the DA FAQ and the new 5th Edition FAQ (that states 'as normal' Codex rules superceed BBB rules). There are no codex 'Power Weapon' rules for the Codex to superceed the BBB on. So it doesn't.

[Wolf89]

So... you still think you get to instant kill our characters with your force weapons?... Look again under the Force Weapon entry in the Armoury section of C:DH...

The normal rules for using psychic power apply

then if we flip to the Psychic power section of C:DH it clearly states

Abilities are used following the rules in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

 

It never made sense in 5th that only DH's can instant kill with their force weapons over others... I guess because they can't since their own codex says to refer to the BBB for the use in the force weapon ability...

[Gentlemanloser]

Abilities are used following the rules in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

 

And the normal rules for Psychic Powers given in the BBB is;

 

Use the Codex Rules. And use the Codex rules above the BBB if they differ.

 

It never made sense in 5th that only DH's can instant kill with their force weapons over others... I guess because they can't since their own codex says to refer to the BBB for the use in the force weapon ability...

 

It doesn't make sense that DH LR don't carry the same number of Troops as SM. Or the DH Storm Shields are 4+, versus one opponent, and count as a one handed wepaon so give an extra attack with another 1H CCW. Or thier Assault Cannons are Heavy 3 and not Heavy 4 Rending.

 

It's a problem with a woefully outdated Codex that GW have thrown thier hands up and said "We don't care, use it in it's entirety, even if your Wargear is vastly different to the norm, and some of your wargear is useless".

 

Codex DH Force Weapons Kill Outright. Not inflict ID, and that's the way it will remain until FAQed or there is a new DH Codex.