No idea what's going on in this topic anymore.

[Shiodome]

Firstly, the current rules seem to indicate that the apothecary can still 'negate' 1 wound, and ignore casualties within 6" (for morale tests) while he is in a transport and the guys being treated are outside the transport. And along the same lines as chaos players using the hull of the vehicle to increase the distance they can summon demons, an apothecaries reach is extended by virtue of a rhino/razorbacks hull? Is this the case, or is there errata somewhere that's changed this?

 

Secondly, while on the topic of apothercaries, i gather they'll confer the 'feel no pain' rule in the new codex. does anyone know if either of the older rules for narthecium/reductor will remains also? particularly the ignore casualties for morale purposes.

[WarpSpawn]

As far as I'm aware, there is no reason why it cannot apply while he is in the vehicle.

 

Unless errata'ed, the rules for this in other codices will still apply to those armies.

[Cairnius]

The rumor mill is that FNP is replacing the "ignore one missed armor save" per turn.

 

Not sure about the not counting casualties from shooting for morale purposes.

[Praeger]

This isnt the correct place for rumours. Please keep it on current rules.

[Brother Gothard]

I don't want to make a mess of this, but I think you guys might not be right.

 

The C:CSM specifically states that if Icons are in Vehicles then the daemons will summon within 6" of the vehicle and not scatter, but the current C:SM states no such thing about Apothecaries. In fact, what it does state is that his special abilities apply to models "within 6" of him." Of him, not of the vehicle that he is in. Unless there is something in the BBB about this, by RAW, he cannot use his Narthecium.

 

Likewise, the same is true of a Librarian's psychic hood for the current C:SM (the new C:SM makes this much easier to understand by adding range to the Psychic hood). If the Librarian is not on the table, he can't use the hood. This was FAQ'd, as far as I know, but now that I look I cannot find it. Help?

 

As far as I'm aware, there is no reason why it cannot apply while he is in the vehicle.

 

Unless errata'ed, the rules for this in other codices will still apply to those armies.

There may be no reason why he cannot, but there is no reason why he can. As I understand the ruleset of 40k, the more important part is that you must have a reason to be able to do something, not no reason why you cant.

 

I'm not trying to be difficult, I just think I'm right ;)

 

:EDIT:

 

There's a discussion going on about this over at Dakka Dakka (or there was I've forgotten the date of the thread). They are divided into two camps: the first camp says that because those models are literally not "on the table" (which works for my argument because you cannot measure 6" from something that is not on the table to be measured from in the first place) then their abilities do not work; the second camp says that those in the first camp are being "over literal" in their insisting that apothecaries and librarians with psychic hoods are not "on the table" - quite in fact they are in their transports and are just still on the table, in a sense.

 

I think the first camp is right, because RAW does not allow for things being true "in a sense" and false "in another sense." It allows one thing to be true: the way things actually are. Are those models on the table, physically? If not, then they cannot use their abilities which require measurements to those models, like the apothecary.

 

Of course, if there is a section in the rulebook that specifically states that apothecary can use their narthecium/reductor in transports, then my entire post should be disregarded as ignorant of the truth.

[WarpSpawn]

To be honest, I hope you are right.

 

There is certainly nothing that gives explicit permission to use it in the BRB, or any codex I am aware of and it just does not seem right that they should be able to. Logically, it would be especially dodgy of the transport had moved too fast for models to embark/disembark as this ability clearly requires the physical intervention of the apothecary, though the rules do not distinguish it from other area effect rules. Probably best that all such rules simply be disallowed, unless stated otherwise.

 

Unfortunately, BRB5 is pretty vague on the "on the table" status of transported models. It seems a little hard to dispute he is in play, and the rules do allow for measuring from the hull of the vehicle where necessary. I admit this is a bit vague to leap to conclusions like this, though I know we can expect more such conclusions in the future. That said, the fact that other abilities explicitly state they can be used, and this does not, does imply it cannot without that permission.

 

Here's hoping the rulebook FAQ doc comes soon and clears this stuff up.

[SeattleDV8]

One thing to know is that 5th units in transports are "on the table" in that a unit in a transport can control an objective. Also they may fire and use psyhic powers from inside the vehicle. using an apothecary seems wrong to me. tough to give firstaid though a fire slit.

[Mordekiem]

The rule you are looking for is on pg 66 under Embarking in the BRB

"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicles hull."

 

This statement implies to me that if you would measure from the apothacary and he is in a rhino then you measure from the rhino.

 

4th edition had a wierd rule that if a nit was in a transport then it was considered "off the board". But no rule exists in 5th and the above rule seems to support this. So apothacaries can be used from vehicles, masters leadership bonus, Ork Meks (?) with the force field thingys, psychic hoods in the new marine codex, etc.

[maniclurker]

(seattleDV8 & Mordekiem)- 1

everyone else- 0

 

The reasoning: Noone else actually seems to be looking in the rulebook before they put out their opinion. In 5th, the unit counts as being on the table, and you measure ranges from the hull of the vehicle. It's in the book, people.

[King_Pash]

It has come to my attention that there may also be a small glitch in the rules. Since the rule specifically says "ignore one failed save" as long as it isn't Instant Death etc (in the BA pdf-dex). The RAW-reasoning would extend that save to cover saves for vehicles. Sneaky, and will definitely earn you a face-full slap with a rulebook but not against the rules as far as I see.. B)

[Mordekiem]

It has come to my attention that there may also be a small glitch in the rules. Since the rule specifically says "ignore one failed save" as long as it isn't Instant Death etc (in the BA pdf-dex). The RAW-reasoning would extend that save to cover saves for vehicles. Sneaky, and will definitely earn you a face-full slap with a rulebook but not against the rules as far as I see.. :D

Machine spirits are people, too! :D

 

It sounds like you are reading from the BA codex. I agree with you there, it only says model. However, your wording implies that this is for all Apothecaries from all marine lists. In the future you may want to clarify that you are discussing Sanguinary Priests in the BA codex.

 

As for the rule, I believe the SM (4th) and BT codex specifically state non-vehicle unit. I think the DA codex has the same wording as the BA one does.

[SeattleDV8]

DA codex " any friendly model within 6" ....

[turelhim vampire]

By next week this wont matter, as the new marine 'dex removes all the current rules from the apothecary and just allows him to confer Feel No Pain to the command squad and any attached characters.

[King_Pash]

By next week this wont matter, as the new marine 'dex removes all the current rules from the apothecary and just allows him to confer Feel No Pain to the command squad and any attached characters.

 

 

Or for those of us that don't have a command sq., any unit the healer is attached to..

 

P.S. 'Nilla marines still suck my Baals.. ;)

[Mordekiem]

By next week this wont matter, as the new marine 'dex removes all the current rules from the apothecary and just allows him to confer Feel No Pain to the command squad and any attached characters.

This won't matter for Codex marine players (and I think SW players). DA, BA and Templar all have stand alone codexes that are not getting changed. Unless you know something that we don't know.

[DevianID]

Noone else actually seems to be looking in the rulebook before they put out their opinion. In 5th, the unit counts as being on the table, and you measure ranges from the hull of the vehicle. It's in the book, people

 

Thats not fair exactly... we are looking in the rule book, and we see SPECIFIC examples of when troops in a vehicle are ALLOWED to effect the outside world, like when determining if they have an objective or not. We also have, on page 66, the rule saying how to measure, 'if we need to.' (That rule does not say you can use abilities, only how to measure range IF you can) Finally, you can SPECIFICLY use shooting powers out of a fire point, you can not just use any psychic powers outside of this unless you have a specific rule saying you can, ie see gate of eternity in the new SM codex.

 

And most telling is the simple fact that in addition to the RAW, you can see they were never intended to be used in a rhino/raider when you simply read the description of how an apothicary works. So on one hand the rules dont specificly ever allow you to do it, on the other hand the intention was never to allow you to do it... so RAW and RAI both lead to the same conclusion.

[Shiodome]

ah well, in the end we came up with a house rule: "if the vehicle is painted to resemble an abulance then by all means use the hull to measure for the apothecary. otherwise stop being daft, and get out into the fresh air and tend your patients". rule is working well so far.

[Mordekiem]

Noone else actually seems to be looking in the rulebook before they put out their opinion. In 5th, the unit counts as being on the table, and you measure ranges from the hull of the vehicle. It's in the book, people

 

Thats not fair exactly... we are looking in the rule book, and we see SPECIFIC examples of when troops in a vehicle are ALLOWED to effect the outside world, like when determining if they have an objective or not. We also have, on page 66, the rule saying how to measure, 'if we need to.' (That rule does not say you can use abilities, only how to measure range IF you can) Finally, you can SPECIFICLY use shooting powers out of a fire point, you can not just use any psychic powers outside of this unless you have a specific rule saying you can, ie see gate of eternity in the new SM codex.

 

And most telling is the simple fact that in addition to the RAW, you can see they were never intended to be used in a rhino/raider when you simply read the description of how an apothicary works. So on one hand the rules dont specificly ever allow you to do it, on the other hand the intention was never to allow you to do it... so RAW and RAI both lead to the same conclusion.

As I stated previously there is a general rule on pg 66 and then multiple implications that you can. So it seems to me that both RAW and RAI say it is OK. And there is no more rule that a unit in a transport is off the table. What you are saying is not intended is to me an attitude holdover from 4th that doesn't appear to exist in 5th.

 

I see what you are saying about specifics, but there are so many possibilities how could they specifiy them all?

 

I also do not understand the reference to Gate of Eternity. I could not find any reference to being inside or outside a transport.

[DevianID]

Ah my bad about gate of eternity... I was thinking of the Ork teleport power, where they say what do if you get certian powers inside a vehicle (in the FAQ was it?)

 

As for page 66, I see that as a measurement rule (and only a measurement rule) and all the other bits are specific examples of when you are allowed to use said measurement rule. For me, its the same as the measurement rules found in the shooting section... you cant just measure whenever you want to whatever number of units you want, you have to be specificly allowed to use those measurement rules. So for me, the 'If you need' part of the rule on pg 66 tells me that there must be times you 'dont need' to measure.

 

Or, more coherently, there is no permission stating 'models use their abilities in vehicles the exact same as when they are on the table with the only exception being you use the measurement rules found on page 66'

[Mordekiem]

So if a unit or model has an ability that you need to measure from them then you do so. If they are in a vehicle they are not off the board. So if you need to measure from the model then you instead measure from the vehicle hull.

 

Ah well, I've stated my case and noticed that you are trying to convince others elsewhere on the board of this as well. So I'm going to let my argument stand unless you have anything new to present.

[Morticon]

Guys may want to take a look at this thread too:

Corbs in a Rhino

 

edit: link fixed

[Mordekiem]

Link does not appear to be working for me, Mort.

 

I'm guessing that is a thread in the BA section though so I'll go check it out.

[DevianID]

By the way I wanted to say one other thing... to everyone saying that the models are not off the table when embarked read the sentence above the measurement rule on pg 66, where is says 'when the unit embarks on a transport, take the unit off the board'

[SeattleDV8]

take the MODELS off. the unit may still fire, use psychic powers and counts as scoring in the trasport. They count (unlike 4th) as on the table. If you read a bit farther they advise putting a model from the unit on top of the transport to show they are there. Very weak argument.

[DevianID]

take the MODELS off. the unit may still fire, use psychic powers and counts as scoring in the trasport. They count (unlike 4th) as on the table. If you read a bit farther they advise putting a model from the unit on top of the transport to show they are there. Very weak argument

 

Actually SeattleDV8, you kinda sum up what I am saying. You take the models off the table... aka they are not there. You specificly may fire (from fire points, or an open topped vehicle), use psychic powers, and count as scoring, because there are very specific rules saying you may do these things.

 

I dont see anywhere where it says they otherwise count as on the table, I do see where is specificly says they are removed from the table--a weak rule apparently?

 

And yes, you may mark the vehicle in some way to show what unit is being transported. Does it mean that if you put a model on top of a transport to denote what unit is in it, that model can shoot and assault like a real model on the table? Of course not, its just a placeholder, and if you want that model to shoot you still must shoot from a fire point, not from a placeholder model on top of a transport.

 

It all boils down to perspective, and my perspective is that with the rules being a permissive set, the terms 'if you need to measure range' do not equal 'you may measure range as if you were not in a transport, with the following change to normal measurement'. I really dont care which way GW erratas everything, but they do need an errata, because the rule on page 66, under the embarking section, is just a measurement rule. A rule on how models that need to measure may measure. Not a rule saying that models in a transport may use all abilities with a range in a transport.

 

As a final example, consider the following; a psychic hood with no range specified (dark angels for example), and the new marine psychic hood with a 24 inch range. If we assume my side is wrong, and the rule on page 66 allows abilities to be used in a vehicle, then the marine psychic hood with a 24 inch range may be used within a vehicle because the 'if you need to measure range' clause is invoked for the psychic hood's 24 inch range. However, the ability of older psychic hoods, which have NO range, will never invoke the 'if you need to measure range, measure from the vehicles hull' clause, thus they have no specified rule that allows them to be used, as they are not shooting attacks, not psychic abilities, and not ranged abilities. Thus, is there any place in the rulebook that says you can use items (like a psychic hood) that have no range attached to them, while in a transport?