New Codex SM Units

[Dark Bjoern]

The point is that: The actual C:SM has an armoury like ours and we had to use our armoury for vehicle upgrades. Now, with the new C:SM, this will change. We will use the entries for vehicles (see 5th Ed. C:SW FAQ) from the the new C:SM and those entries includes the upgrades for the according vehicle. With other words our vehicle, and in some cases normal, armoury is dead.

[megamat008]

A WGBG can't be with GH's so you don't have a heavy weapon with the GH's. Only way is giving them a WGBL but then I'd give them either a heavy flamer or an AC, not a CML.

 

As for the old style Rhinos and Razorbacks... I'm tempted to get them to use for my vindicator conversions, but I think people will cry foul... ;)

 

I meant WGBL not WGBG ;)

 

And for your information CML are now Heavy 2, that's why they are so tempting :P

[Max_Dammit]

I am pretty sure the last one did. We havent used the costs in our codex for vehicle upgrades since 3rd ed. Of course, finding a 4th ed FAQ might be tough, I just trashed mine.

Only vehicles mentioned in that FAQ are the pod (use rules out of SM dex) and a LRC, use 0-1 as in SM dex

 

The point is that: The actual C:SM has an armoury like ours and we had to use our armoury for vehicle upgrades. Now, with the new C:SM, this will change. We will use the entries for vehicles (see 5th Ed. C:SW FAQ) from the the new C:SM and those entries includes the upgrades for the according vehicle. With other words our vehicle, and in some cases normal, armoury is dead.

Only says use point and rules for vehicles (LIST) out of SM dex, all variant and options available to SW (of list)

No where does it say use points out of SM dex for upgrade.

 

If we had to, the would put out a new FAQ, but with a small difference of 5 points there is no real need.

[Nightrunner]

Ah, I leave an innocent little topic and look what is leads to! :P

 

And for your information CML are now Heavy 2, that's why they are so tempting :P

 

Agreed; with a frost blade to boot, it really does offer up some extra anti-tank. Versatility is the name of the game!

 

I am pretty sure the last one did. We havent used the costs in our codex for vehicle upgrades since 3rd ed. Of course, finding a 4th ed FAQ might be tough, I just trashed mine.

Only vehicles mentioned in that FAQ are the pod (use rules out of SM dex) and a LRC, use 0-1 as in SM dex

 

The point is that: The actual C:SM has an armoury like ours and we had to use our armoury for vehicle upgrades. Now, with the new C:SM, this will change. We will use the entries for vehicles (see 5th Ed. C:SW FAQ) from the the new C:SM and those entries includes the upgrades for the according vehicle. With other words our vehicle, and in some cases normal, armoury is dead.

Only says use point and rules for vehicles (LIST) out of SM dex, all variant and options available to SW (of list)

No where does it say use points out of SM dex for upgrade.

 

If we had to, the would put out a new FAQ, but with a small difference of 5 points there is no real need.

 

Sorry to quote big chunks. My point is this exact problem, though; I am really hoping that GW decide to edit their FAQ's (what am I thinking.......!) as I am planning for the UKGT heat 2.

 

First; max, I have always believed that FAQ's from previous editions are moot when new ones come out (as we can now buy as many LRC's as you want).

 

My problem is this; in the Venerable dreadnought and LR Exterminator entries (the few, actual vehicle entries in our good ol' book) it says that we take any of the upgrades allowed in the Space Marine Armoury. Now, whilst our codex contains the "old" points values, they are not the same as the Codex: SM ones, which, even though it doesn't have an official 'armoury' as such, has the same points values across the board for upgrades like extra armour.

 

Failing an FAQ, I will just have to hope that an email I have sent regarding these list queries clears these up for the GT, as having an incorrect loses me points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Bloomin' fancy vanilla marines....... :D

 

NR ;)

[Wolf89]

I am pretty sure the last one did. We havent used the costs in our codex for vehicle upgrades since 3rd ed. Of course, finding a 4th ed FAQ might be tough, I just trashed mine.

 

To back that up, I will cite the LRE. It says it may take any of the vehicle upgrades allowed in the Space Marine Armoury. Why would one of our tanks use the armoury in the SM codex and not the rest? Doesnt make sense.

 

But, I am 100% sure that I have not used the prices listed in the back of our codex since 4th came out and the marines got a new codex. I am 99.9% sure that was mentioned in the 4th ed FAQ. It was put there in our codex more for reference than anything else. Just like assault cannons no longer being heavy 3 without rending (which is how they are listed in our codex).

 

Thats just how I see it.

 

 

Wolf - If your serious about wanting some old rhino's, PM me. I really do think I want rid of them. I used to like the older models, easier to transport in my case.. but now, with true LOS, they have lost alot of their charm for me. Then this mess, I think I am going more for a DP or infantry force.

 

True LoS is better for the rhinos for hiding them, but I can see where you'd want a bigger rhino so you can hide more behind it.

 

The older whirlwind isn't a problem because it's hiding in the corner somewhere anyways. :D

 

I was playing with the new DP the other day (yes store copies rule!) and I really like the little icons that come with them, the space wolf one looks great and they're a big enough size that you can tell the difference between the different kinds.

 

Too bad I'm somewhat broke (unless I tap into my pc repair fund (I always keep some in case one of my pc's goes down for quick repair)) to get a little extra cash) otherwise I'd be buying up at least 4 drop pods.

 

And Max was only referring to the older FAQ to point out to lars that the vehicles weren't in there either and that we used our own.

 

We don't use Ven. dreads from C:SM as it clearly states in the current FAQ.

 

I still don't know why there is discussion about rhinos and razorbacks, the FAQ doesn't list them as an option like the dreads and land raiders that are mentioned, so case closed, we don't get the reduced costs.

[Dark Bjoern]

The point is that: The actual C:SM has an armoury like ours and we had to use our armoury for vehicle upgrades. Now, with the new C:SM, this will change. We will use the entries for vehicles (see 5th Ed. C:SW FAQ) from the the new C:SM and those entries includes the upgrades for the according vehicle. With other words our vehicle, and in some cases normal, armoury is dead.

Only says use point and rules for vehicles (LIST) out of SM dex, all variant and options available to SW (of list)

No where does it say use points out of SM dex for upgrade.

 

If we had to, the would put out a new FAQ, but with a small difference of 5 points there is no real need.

Take a look at the SW FAQ there it is written. We will use not only the pointcosts but all variants and options for the listed vehicles. The armoury no longer a seperate section in C:SM all upgrades are now listed as options in the entries of each vehicle. Our vehicle armoury is simple and plain dead.

[Wolf89]

The point is that: The actual C:SM has an armoury like ours and we had to use our armoury for vehicle upgrades. Now, with the new C:SM, this will change. We will use the entries for vehicles (see 5th Ed. C:SW FAQ) from the the new C:SM and those entries includes the upgrades for the according vehicle. With other words our vehicle, and in some cases normal, armoury is dead.

Only says use point and rules for vehicles (LIST) out of SM dex, all variant and options available to SW (of list)

No where does it say use points out of SM dex for upgrade.

 

If we had to, the would put out a new FAQ, but with a small difference of 5 points there is no real need.

Take a look at the SW FAQ there it is written. We will use not only the pointcosts but all variants and options for the listed vehicles. The armoury no longer a seperate section in C:SM all upgrades are now listed as options in the entries of each vehicle. Our vehicle armoury is simple and plain dead.

 

Dark B. where in the FAQ does it say that?

 

Space Wolves vehicles: Use the point costs and

rules from Codex: Space Marines for

Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes,

Whirlwinds, Predators, Land Raiders and

Vindicators. All of the different variants and

options available to these units in a Space Marine

army are also available to the Space Wolves. The

exception to this is the Venerable Dreadnoughts,

which must be chosen from the Space Wolves

army list (as detailed on page 7), and not the

Space Marines army list.

 

Rhinos and Razorbacks are left out plain and simple.

[WolfLordLars]

Could of sworn it was in there.

 

Nightrunner has a valid point, and maybe that is where I got it from? I dont know.. but why would every other tank in your army not use the points listed there, but two do? Makes no sense to me at all.

 

Like I said, I am going to let the local group handle this. Most of them seem to be of the same opinion that I am which is we use the units in C:SM across the board.

 

 

Wolf - Well, let me know if you do want them. I have two, which I doubt I will use any more, and am open to sale/trade. I was using them less and less (I have a single new style rhino that I favor... looks more realistic, almost spot on for various US Army APC's) and now dont care to use them at all.

[Max_Dammit]

We can discuss this till

A] we get in to a big fight (real Spacewolfy ;))

B] we get a new SW FAQ (which has been confirmed, will not be made)

C] we get a new SW dex (which is just like 12 months ago about 12 months away)

 

So its up to us to use what feels right and make sure to ask organizers of tourneys what to do.

Lets face it brothers, we've been left out in the cold, and as true fenricians, its just the way we like it :D

[Wolf89]

I guess we'll let this be unsettled but shouldn't be brought up unless we face eachother in battle, if that's the case, I wouldn't want to forget my warhammer that day...

[WolfLordLars]

Sounds good.

 

Though, one point does have me confused.

 

If you buy a Rhino for X points, as listed in the SW codex... why would you use the armory in the SW codex? You pay the points for the rhino, then use the rhino listed in C:SM.. which uses the armory in C:SM, right? Every vehicle in C:SM uses the armory in C:SM, doesnt it?

 

How can you justify the use of the SW Armory for vehicles?

 

 

Eh... nevermind. I guess thats just how it is.

 

So, we use the C:SM armory for all the vehicles we get from C:SM, except for the Rhino or Razorback, which are the only two vehicles (and the Ven Dread) that use the armory from C:SW?

[barek]

Lets face it brothers, we've been left out in the cold, and as true fenricians, its just the way we like it :yes:

 

:tu: :D :D

[Megalodon]

We can discuss this till

B] we get a new SW FAQ (which has been confirmed, will not be made)

I hold a little hope it will be rectified after seeing this in the GDUK thread.

 

Had a nice chat with all the games developers picked up a few things.

 

1. FAQ's Alessio is looking after these and wants to use them to unifie core rules and codex's so there arn't several different versions of the same rules.

[Ullr Direfang]

Too bad I'm somewhat broke (unless I tap into my pc repair fund (I always keep some in case one of my pc's goes down for quick repair)) to get a little extra cash) otherwise I'd be buying up at least 4 drop pods.

 

i know the feeling... fortunately for me one of the biggest this i get is a couple 100 $ gift certificates to my local store for x-mass and my b-day. i also ran an 2v2 apoc game with ALL my wolves in DPs. it was awesome!

 

and according to GDUK thread, i am kinda interested in what it all means (100%): new FAQ, new 'dex, new mini-dex (what i like to call ours now), or just new models? i have kind of accepted that i have to wait for anything really new and am currently enjoying the "how many attacks do you get..... they hit on WHAT..... THEY ARE AT WHAT STRENGTH!" lines i keep getting in my local stores.

 

UD

[WolfLordLars]

Ok, here is why this does not make sense to me. If someone could please explain the reasoning behind your view on how things should work, I would appreciate it.

 

The rules as written are as follows (lets go with a unit of Blood Claws):

- Under the unit entry, it says the pack can take a Rhino for 50pts. It notes “see Transport entry for upgrade options”

- Further down it says that details of the vehicles can be found in C:SM.

- When you reference C:SM, per the above rules, you find that it details which upgrades you can buy, and where to find their cost (in this case, C:SM). Mostly the same, though some are included that are not on the C:SW list (Power of the Machine Spirit comes to mind).

 

So, as I understand it, you pay 50pts for a Rhino, per C:SW, and then reference C:SM for the rest. Meaning, you use the armory in C:SM for your vehicles. C:SW says to “See Transport entry for upgrade options”.

 

Right now, this doesn’t matter. The costs are the same in both books. Aside from the stuff that the Rhino can take according to the Transport Entry which are not in C:SW, its no different. Rhino’s cost the same, upgrades cost the same, etc.

 

But, when the new C:SM comes out, it WILL matter. The costs are all different, from what I am to understand. Rhino’s cost different amounts, and upgrades cost more, from what I understand.

 

By the line of reasoning I have heard, our Rhino will still cost 50. But, if that is the case, then we still have to reference C:SM for upgrades… meaning if the upgrades cost more, we are going to end up paying ALOT more, certainly more than a 5pt difference. Until I sit down and really read the the new C:SM, I wont know.

 

You cant use the C:SW armory for rhino’s. It specifically says to use the transport entry for upgrade options. The Rhino entry says to reference C:SM.

 

Unlike, say, a Blood Angels Rhino, ours does not have an entry in our codex. It’s a generic, run of the mill Rhino. The BA Rhino has a specific entry in the BA Codex, if memory serves. I have not read the DA codex, I don’t know how its worded there.

 

 

Am I wrong? Did I miss something that allows us to ignore one part of our codex in favor of another? If we follow our codex, when the new C:SM comes out, transports are going to cost quite a bit more than usual, if upgrades cost as much as is rumored.

 

Not trying to be difficult, just trying to figure out what I missed. I don’t want cheaper Rhino’s, I want Rhino’s that are the same as any other chapter. We get no special rules for them, so I cant understand why they cost more.

 

Until I figure it out, I just wont use them. Not a problem. Still, I would like to understand.

[Dark Bjoern]

The point is that: The actual C:SM has an armoury like ours and we had to use our armoury for vehicle upgrades. Now, with the new C:SM, this will change. We will use the entries for vehicles (see 5th Ed. C:SW FAQ) from the the new C:SM and those entries includes the upgrades for the according vehicle. With other words our vehicle, and in some cases normal, armoury is dead.

Only says use point and rules for vehicles (LIST) out of SM dex, all variant and options available to SW (of list)

No where does it say use points out of SM dex for upgrade.

 

If we had to, the would put out a new FAQ, but with a small difference of 5 points there is no real need.

Take a look at the SW FAQ there it is written. We will use not only the pointcosts but all variants and options for the listed vehicles. The armoury no longer a seperate section in C:SM all upgrades are now listed as options in the entries of each vehicle. Our vehicle armoury is simple and plain dead.

 

Dark B. where in the FAQ does it say that?

 

Space Wolves vehicles: Use the point costs and

rules from Codex: Space Marines for

Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes,

Whirlwinds, Predators, Land Raiders and

Vindicators. All of the different variants and

options available to these units in a Space Marine

army are also available to the Space Wolves. The

exception to this is the Venerable Dreadnoughts,

which must be chosen from the Space Wolves

army list (as detailed on page 7), and not the

Space Marines army list.

 

Rhinos and Razorbacks are left out plain and simple.

There it is written. But i find more interesting that the german annd the english FAQ are that different, cause the german FAQ includes rhinos and razorbacks.

[WolfLordLars]

But what about Rhino's and Razorback's? Thats the issue I am having.

 

In my opinion, we use the C:SM armory, like every other tank. However, if we also use the cost for them listed in our codex rather than the one listed in C:SM, those are going to cost MUCH more than vanilla marines.

 

I dont understand how people are trying to justify using the C:SW armory for the Rhino, when our own codex says (clearly) to use the transport listing (in C:SM) for it.

[Ullr Direfang]

There it is written. But i find more interesting that the german annd the english FAQ are that different, cause the german FAQ includes rhinos and razorbacks

 

i don't know how many of you can speak German, but this is where some confusion comes in:

 

Fahrzeuge der Space Wolves: Verwende für Cybots, Land Speeder, Trikes, Rhinos, Razorbacks, Whirlwinds, Predatoren, Land Raider und Vindicatoren die Punktkosten und Regeln aus dem Codex: Space Marines. Alle unterschiedlichen Varianten und Optionen dieser Einheiten aus dem Codex: Space Marines sind auch für Space Wolves erhältlich. Einzige Ausnahme ist der Ehrwürdige Cybot, der aus der Armeeliste der Space Wolves (und nicht der Space Marines) ausgewählt werden muss (siehe Seite 7)

 

Space Wolves vehicles: Use the point costs and

rules from Codex: Space Marines for

Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes,

Whirlwinds, Predators, Land Raiders and

Vindicators. All of the different variants and

options available to these units in a Space Marine

army are also available to the Space Wolves. The

exception to this is the Venerable Dreadnoughts,

which must be chosen from the Space Wolves

army list (as detailed on page 7), and not the

Space Marines army list.

 

 

i wonder if GW knows about this? because if they don't this it might be nice to let them know so they can figure it out for us. it's part of their job right. i am sure that in a newer FAQ, if they ever made one, they might fix it. i am going to email them about it right now.

 

UD

[Crimson Devil]

It's no big surprise, GW's design team has never had a strong grasp on the English language or seem to care all that much. The non-English Codexes and FAQs are as a rule, better written since the translators try to be as precise as possible.

[WolfLordLars]

Well, doesnt that mostly take care of it? I mean, if the German one includes the Rhino and Razorback, that means its just a matter of time until the English one is fixed... hopefully?

 

Oh well, I am sticking to not using them until this is all sorted out.. :lol:

[Megalodon]

Well that's a fine mess isn't it? :huh: I really wish GW would pull their collective heads outta wherever they have them stuck. I'm gonna head out and check the other FAQ's on the other sites.

 

Edit no luck finding the SW errata on any of the other sites. I did find it on the french site but I needed to have an account to download it, I tried to creat one with no luck. :lol: :P

[Wolf89]

Well then... after reviewing the GW DE FAQ I have to agree with lars and Dark B. on this... it's really quite simple, I go back home, play 40k and have no problems at all, or stay here and have others tell me I can't play that way and in a big mess... ;)

 

As for Dark B. I apologize, I used the C:SW in german as well for points because it's listed there, but even after all this and looking into things here is an FAQ that goes against exactly what I was trying to prove. Oh, and I guess lars gets an apology as well... ;)

 

Glad that was caught, without that post we'd be arguing this for another few months until someone finally realized the FAQ's were different.

[Dark Bjoern]

Wolf89: No need to apologize, brother. That´s why we are here: to discuse such things.

 

Crimson Devil: That´s something i think you´re right. In the translations they try to be as presice as possible.

[WolfLordLars]

What he said. No need to apologize. Its all just for discussion.

 

The whole thing just didnt make sense to me. First, I thought it had been covered, because thats how I had done it for the past few years. When I couldnt find the FAQ to back me up, it still didnt make sense, so I kept poking at it.

 

Now, to see if GW does something about it...

[Max_Dammit]

thats what i love about the SW section

 

We can have civilised discussions, something wrong with that isnt there :)