*DEBATE* The better unit.

[Apostolos]

I would like some feedback as to which unit would be the better choice between the following two:

 

Brother Captain with Melta bombs + 4 Terminators

 

or

 

Justicar + 8 PAGKs

 

I like to run a all infantry list and I already have the Brother Captain & terminators as my HQ choice but was wondering if subbing in another unit of these instead of a PAGK squad would be beneficial?

 

On the one hand the terminators have 4 more power weapons and a +1 save but on the other the PAGKs have 4 more wounds and 8 more stormbolter shots. So I am kind of up in the air as what would be better overall.

[Tfcdogbert]

PAGK's can score too, just throwing tha tinto the consideration for the mix.

[tilindir]

Brother-captain can't have any kind of grenades, sorry.

[InquisitorPhred]

With the new scoring rules you pretty much need to preferentially select the pagks when possible.

[Gentlemanloser]

PAGK. Terminators just aren't worth their points in the cyrrent game. Sadly.

 

Even if we got FAQed to get 3+ Storm Shields, they wouldn't be worth their Points. :rolleyes:

[SpideyScott]

I have to disagree GKT are some of the better termies in the game (well not the worst anyway). For there points you get 3 str 6 init 4 power weapon attacks at WS 5. On top of that they can lay down storm bolter fire or psycannon at range. On top of this they have shrouding and can stop psychic attacks directed at them, not to mention all the benifits termies have. The real benifit if GKT is to take them as retinues for you BC or GM, protecting them by making them become an upgraded character rather than an IC.

 

As for storm shields SM can keep theres i prefer ours as they give my GM another attack, meaning on the charge he gets 6.

 

I would give your BC at least a 3 GKT retinue. That would still leave you with more than enough PAGKs.

[Gentlemanloser]

GKT are some of the better Termies in the game. No denying that. :)

 

All termies aren't worth using though. ;)

[SpideyScott]

Im only saying to use at least 3 for a retinue. At the moment i run 30 PAGKs (in 6 squads), 2 dreads and a GM with 3 GKT in 1500pt games. By dropping/ changing units you can get even more PAGKs in.

I just meant for the OP to keep his retinue and go with PAGKs instead of another squad of termies.

[InquisitorPhred]

I don't think that anyone will argue that the BC w/ 3 termies as retinue isn't a great HQ. OP asked if he should take an additional one on top of his HQ as elites over more PAGKs!

[Ambro]

Both units are good but in different ways so it depends on the enemy and your own army which would be best, PAGK are great for their storm bolter volleys and can fight fairly well in close combat against lightly armoured foes and AV12 vehicles, GKT's are much more effective in close combat against all types of enemy although they cannot put down the same rate of fire that the PAGK's can. To give you a definite answer you need to give more details of the rest of your army.

[number6]

No DH list needs more than a single unit of GKTs. Multiple units can be fun, but they do cost you significantly in the Troops dept, which is dangerous considering that 2/3 of missions are objective-based.

 

Once you have one unit of GKTs, always prefer PAGKs.

 

Really, the general rule should be: Take as few of everything else not PAGKs as you can afford ... so you can load up on PAGKs.

[Spartans]

No DH list needs more than a single unit of GKTs. Multiple units can be fun, but they do cost you significantly in the Troops dept, which is dangerous considering that 2/3 of missions are objective-based.

 

Once you have one unit of GKTs, always prefer PAGKs.

 

Really, the general rule should be: Take as few of everything else not PAGKs as you can afford ... so you can load up on PAGKs.

 

Number 6 is on the mark. In 5th edition troop choices are the key so PAGKs over another Terminator squad for me.

[Ambro]

That is absolute rubbish. GKT's excel in many aspects over PAGK so the choice is purely situational depending on your own army and the opponent. PAGK do make excellent troops choices but theres no need to go completly mad over it, GKT's can still contest objectives which given their ability to deepstrike and their difficulty to kill makes them equally as useful in objective based games. Also objectives are only really important in >1/3< of games. In Anihilate troops choice dont mean anything, capture and control you only need to hold one objective whilst contesting the other. It's only seize ground where the troops become more important but most DH players use a load of inducted guard anyway which make excellent holding troops.

[number6]

"Absolute rubbish"? :lol:

 

Just speaking from personal experience. Perhaps you are, too, of course. But, in my personal experience, and opinion, you can never have too many Troops. Period. And for what it is worth, I always maintained that one GKT squad was plenty way back at the advent of 4th edition. IMHO, the best armies, the most flexible armies, are the ones built upon Troops. I think this is true regardless of army; the DH aren't unique in this respect. 5th edition's emphasis on Troops only solidifies the argument in my mind.

 

If your experience says otherwise, that's great! I'd love to hear more about that.

[Ambro]

I was referring to the blanket statment that you made to take as few as everything else. Going for swathes of PAGK is a viable strategy and if you check what I said I agree with that. I was just trying to give a more balanced view of the other ways to play a Daemonhunter as I don't believe that the only way is to take an army of PAGK.

[Thaelion Hexis]

That is absolute rubbish

 

Settle down. We're all entitled to our views and all, of course, have different experience. I am also partial to having as many Grey Knights as possible.

 

Terminators ae good, but the added PAGKs give you almost twice as much firepower and twice as many attacks, at the expense of not being power weapons. The versatility is the breaker though. It is what makes us a water army. Toning down PAGKs for more terminators is narrowing our expertise to close combat, as we no longer have the same shooting capabilities.

[Apostolos]

I wasn't aware that melta bombs where a no no on the brother captain?

[ripath]

Apostolos Posted Today, 10:48 PM

I wasn't aware that melta bombs where a no no on the brother captain?

 

It should be legal as that the codex states " a GK hero may be given any equipment allowed by the armory" and I don't see any superseding rule in the codex. Unless I missed an FAQ update by some one in a million chance. For the other question I would probably drop the extra GKT and upgrade your HQ to have two psycannons to make it a really effective static firing unit with unbelievable survivability at range. and then add a 6 man GKPA squad. or a 4 GK mini-purgation squad. that would be an interesting army to see almost all psycannon toting GK sitting back and shooting.

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't think Melta Bombs have the '*' (or 'T') to be able to be used by minis in Terminator Armour.

[ripath]

Gentlemanloser Posted Today, 03:17 AM

I don't think Melta Bombs have the '*' (or 'T') to be able to be used by minis in Terminator Armour.

 

That applies to things like a chainfist which only terminators may carry. There is no limited terminator equipment in the armory. Unless like I said we got a new codex or update that I don't know about.

[JamesI]

Gentlemanloser Posted Today, 03:17 AM

I don't think Melta Bombs have the '*' (or 'T') to be able to be used by minis in Terminator Armour.

 

That applies to things like a chainfist which only terminators may carry. There is no limited terminator equipment in the armory. Unless like I said we got a new codex or update that I don't know about.

No. Items without that mark can not be carried by terminators.

[tilindir]

No. Items without that mark can not be carried by terminators.

 

Absolutely correct.

[- 7eAL -]

Gentlemanloser Posted Today, 03:17 AM

I don't think Melta Bombs have the '*' (or 'T') to be able to be used by minis in Terminator Armour.

That applies to things like a chainfist which only terminators may carry. There is no limited terminator equipment in the armory. Unless like I said we got a new codex or update that I don't know about.

No. Items without that mark can not be carried by terminators.

James is correct. To help clarify:

 

From page 22 of the 2006 Space Marines codex:

Models in Terminator armour can only select equipment marked with 'T'

From page 16 of the Daemonhunters codex:

Models wearing Terminator armour can only use wargear and weapons marked with a *.

This is quite different from what ripath stated, because the limiting factor "only" is placed differently and therefore changes a great deal of the Armoury. If only Terminators were allowed to use the marked weapons, then there would be no hidden powerfists carried by Space Marine sergeants. If that were true of a Daemonhunters army, then an Inquisitor would only be able to use bolt pistols, close combat weapons, needle pistols, plasma pistols and hellguns, unless he bought Terminator armour to "unlock" the rest.

 

It's a good thing it isn't true. Many players do not want to waste points on Terminator armour when it isn't necessary.

[DevianID]

If the question is which is better, termies or PAGK, it really depends on circumstance. If you are talking which is more fun, then that is completely subjective. If you are asking which is better in competitive play, I always turn to math and metagame logic. The following math is how I calculate metagame balance between units... as a warning it could cause your head to IMPLODE hehe

 

So the math is roughly 5 GKT with brother cap versus 9 PAGK with justicar. Note the comparison squads are designed to illustrate math involved in a competetive environment, and do not take terrain or tactics into play--im not trying to say las/plas squads or 2 ass cannon termies are better than Grey Knights, for example, only how each unit would do if faced with such equal pointed units.

 

Versus marines (4th ed), if trying to outshoot them, you are looking at 2 plas/las squads of 6, GKT kill 9.3% a turn while PAGK kill 17% a turn. Marine bolters kill .88 PAGK or .44 GKT, and AP2 fire kills 1.48 GKT or 2.22 PAGK. Thus, 1.92 GKT (38.4%) bite it and 3.108 PAGK (34.5%) bite it. The kill to death ratio is .2421 for GKT, while it is .49 for PAGK, thus PAGK are about twice as good at shooting competitive MEQ than GKT. That should explain how I do the math I hope, the rest is shortened for sanity.

 

Versus marines (4th ed), if trying to outfight the same marines (assume no charge bonus to either side), GKT kill 6.11 (6.11 of 12, 51%) while PAGK kill 3 + 1.66 (4.66 of 12, 39%). GKT lose .5 (10%) while PAGK lose 1 (11%). Kills to death ratio is 5.1 for GKT and PAGK is 3.5, thus GKT are 44% better in CC than PAGK.

 

So versus shooty marines, since there is twice as many assault phases as shooting phases, GKT are almost the same as PAGK.

 

Versus 2 Asscannon 5 man termie squads shooting, KtD is .37 for GKT and .66 for PAGK (PAGK better by 80%), and versus assault, factoring initiative, KtD is 4.8 for GKT and 1.6 for PAGK (GKT better by 200%) thus considering initiative and the fact that there is 2x the close combats than shooting phases, GKT come out way ahead.

 

So with all that complicated stuff aside, versus shooty marine armies, termies and PAGK are tied versus tac marines and GKT are much better than PAGK versus termies... all in all that makes GKT the better choice versus competetive shooting marines--i consider the termies bonus attack when charging equal to a PAGKs ability to score, as if we are being realistic it is more important to kill the enemy in early assault phases than whether up to 7 rounds of shooting sitting on an objective, unable to move for fear of losing the objective, as it should be obvious a true shooting marine army outshoots by a LARGE margin any Grey knight list, forcing Grey Knights into assault to win.

 

Versus ork hordes of all shoota boyz, using the same stuff as above, shooting KtD for GKT is .34 and .48 for PAGK, PAGK better by 41%, in combat GKT KtD .64 PAGK KtD 1, PAGK better by 56%. Thus, versus the very popular ork horde of shoot boyz, PAGK are better both shooting and close combat.

 

So with shooty marines GKT are better, versus ork horde PAGK are better. If you expect more marine players at a tourney, bring more GKT. If you expect more horde, bring more PAGK.

[- 7eAL -]

Wow.

 

That's crazy math even I won't do.