*DEBATE* The better unit.

[Ambro]

That is one of the greatest posts I have ever read Devian :D, very interesting, I would never have tried to work out that myself enless I suddenly decided to go all competitive and win all the GT's! so thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.

[ferrous]

Don't forget Holocaust. That can make GKTs viable vs hordes.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I prefer the incinerator to the Holocaust. Firstly, because you don't have to be in combat to fire it (whereas with Holocaust you almost always have to be, given the lack of range), you can torch that unit of Genestealers or Harlequins without getting ripped apart. Secondly, because the incinerator never has a chance to kill any member of the squad, because it's a gun. Thirdly, because it's cheaper and ignores all but 2+ and 3+ armour saves, whereas Holocaust allows armour and invulnerable saves (the latter being quite retarded, given that according to fluff the raw faith of Grey Knights actually hurts Daemons).

 

As others have said (I think Number6), you should really aim to have only 1-2 squads of GKT's, and usually all you will have is that HQ squad as a retinue for the Hero. They are awesome in combat, but more than any other army DH's and especially GK's need as many Troops choices as possible, and large squads to sustain casualties. Oh, and grenades are illegal on Terminator-armoured models (hence the chainfist option, and the 'Frag Assault Launchers' on LR Crusaders). Feel free to give Justicar's meltabombs though, they'll need it to blow up Soulgrinders in combat.

[Inquisitor Fox]

So with shooty marines GKT are better, versus ork horde PAGK are better. If you expect more marine players at a tourney, bring more GKT. If you expect more horde, bring more PAGK.

So did that all get summed up as mathmatical evidence of the basic precept we have that says to excel at the other armies weakness because Grey Knights are well rounded? ;)

 

I got lost in all the stats there (which is scary having a BA in Economics with an emphasis on statistics), but I think that's what was said. I could kinda follow it :P

 

In any event, I second the motion that DevianID's post was totally awesome!

[ferrous]

If you're mounted in a land raider, then incinerators are the better way to go. But if you're footslogging, most CC oriented armies are more maneuverable and are likely to get the charge before you can get your flamer template off. Also with holocaust you can use it every assault phase, while still in assault. While the incinerator is only that one time, and takes up a gun slot that could be a psycannon.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

If you're mounted in a land raider, then incinerators are the better way to go. But if you're footslogging, most CC oriented armies are more maneuverable and are likely to get the charge before you can get your flamer template off. Also with holocaust you can use it every assault phase, while still in assault. While the incinerator is only that one time, and takes up a gun slot that could be a psycannon.

 

Who footslogs GKT's? Its Deepstrike all the way man, thats half the reason you shell out for their fancy armour. Don't have to pay for a transport, and it keeps them from getting shot for a few turns, and gets them into combat faster. Win-win.

 

Holocaust is crap for several reasons. Lets examine and compare;

 

1. Allows saves. This is probably the most annoying aspect of the power, because even Guardsman can make a save against it. Yes, with a giant template, you are likely to cause a lot of wounds, but your enemies can makes saves. Against a better armoured unit (like Marines), you'll struggle to do any noticable damage. Plus Monstrous Creatures and lone characters couldn't care less.

2. Zero range. You have to be in combat to use it.

3. It is resolved at I1. Quite frankly, if you are not winning combat already, Holocaust isn't going to be much help in that department. You need to hit them hard with shooting first, and then finish them off in combat.

4. It's 5 points more expensive than the alternative

5. It's a psychic power. This has three problems. Firstly, you risk losing either your Brother-Captain/Grandmaster to the Warp, or if it's a squad power the whole unit. Secondly, it can fail to activate. Thirdly, enemy psykers and anti-psyker gear can disrupt the casting (Runes of Warding, Shadow in the Warp).

 

Now, looking over the incinerator;

1. Only allows 2+ and 3+ saves. This is a great compliment to your close-combat attacks, because your NFW's are designed to tackle precisely those units.

2. It's a gun. This means two things; firstly, it always fires, and secondly, it can't ever fail, backfire or be disrupted. It's point and click.

3. It's 5 points cheaper than Holocaust

4. It allows you to burninate dangerous close-combat units without entering combat (which Holocaust mandates). So, if Harlequins or Genestealers are poised to rip your GKT's to shreds next turn, get in close and fry them to death before they can. It also lets you whittle down a horde of incoming Orks or Gaunts, but I would leave those targets for your PAGK, who are designed to tackle enemy infantry.

 

Template weapons on assault units is pretty much the perfect combination, and many armies match them together (Chaos Terminators, Deathwing, Tactical Terminators, Assault Marines). Taking an I1 blast which doesn't ignore any saves is a bad idea, especially because it's a psychic power. I love the fluff behind Holocaust (if they made it I10 and ignoring invul saves it would work), but it's simply not worth taking. Incinerator is always better IMO.

[number6]

Who footslogs GKT's?

I do. Always. :lol:

 

I give them a pair of psycannons and watch the opponents cry as the shrouding and termie armour prevent them from getting hit while they maneuver down a flank for a late-game charge into a decisive combat. It's a winner for me.

[Gaz1858]

@Reclusiarch Darius

Yes one on one the Incinerator is better than the Holocaust power. But its the bigger picture that needs to be looked at. Im with Number 6 on the footslogging thing. I march my GKTs forward with psycannon(inc my GKGM with psycannon) killing as i go. Then when in combat used holocaust. In a game against orks i was charged by a big horde on turn three (so thats already 9 S6 AP4 shots used over the incinerators 0). I then used Holocaust in combat and killed 8 Orks.

 

In a GKT unit i think id rather have that ability of hard hitting shooting of the psycannon plus an extra few wounds from Holocaust to lower the LD test in combat.

[high marshall jordan]

I find holocaust most effective against horde armies specifically orks since their armor saves are ususally junk and the amount of them that would pile in would easily fit the entire template and if you don't know how to move your guys to where they won't be effected from their own attack then don't bother using it. and if you can assault at the right angle you can even get to guys not even in the combat :D

 

against MEQ's I still take it because it helps put an extra few wounds that can pull victory from my opponent in the last moments of combat

 

besides what stopping you from taking both :D

 

for me personally I would take a psycannon over an incinerator most of the time and holocaust

 

as to OP's question I would go for a second GKT squad for reasons already posted

[ferrous]

I have to agree that holocaust is too expensive, it really should be closer to 10/15 points...or free since it has some crazy drawbacks. But it is quite handy to have vs. actual horde armies like genestealers and orks and even harlequins. (if you can manage to survive their strikes-- i lost all but my brocap vs harlies and was slated to lose the combat til I dropped the holocaust on him and his troops withered)

 

 

And count me in the footslog my GKT camp, keeping them about 36" from their targets and pummeling with psycannon fire.

 

DS and reserves is a random gambit, i don't like have that many points off the board, coming in at a random time and semi random place, and unable to charge when they do come down. You might not even get to use your incinerator if your DS is off. (mitigated by teleport homers, but they cost points and have to be brought into position)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I do. Always. tongue.gif

 

I give them a pair of psycannons and watch the opponents cry as the shrouding and termie armour prevent them from getting hit while they maneuver down a flank for a late-game charge into a decisive combat. It's a winner for me.

 

I think it's a waste, personally. I mean, you can get dual psycannon on your PAGK, who are arguably now a shooty unit in 5th edition. I prefer Deepstriking in with an incinerator and getting into combat fast. I can see how that works for you, but I prefer using the GKT's in combat, where they outclass a lot of other targets.

In a GKT unit i think id rather have that ability of hard hitting shooting of the psycannon plus an extra few wounds from Holocaust to lower the LD test in combat.

 

The thing that really hurts the psycannon against lesser infantry is cover saves. Orks will definately being making use of it (if not from Gretchin then from clever alignment with other mobs), and Tyranids will do it too. Plus, you can always miss with psycannons (it sucks when it happens), whereas the incinerator auto-hits and with no more partials it can cause a lot more carnage.

 

I've already outlined the risks you take with Holocaust, and the fact that if you haven't won combat in your own right already than a few more deaths at I1 are not going to help you. Burninate then charge.

 

besides what stopping you from taking both biggrin.gif

 

Points. I prefer taking a psychic hood instead of Holocaust.

 

for me personally I would take a psycannon over an incinerator most of the time and holocaust

 

Yay, thats 75 points of wargear, opposed to just 15 points. Thats a lot of points that could've bought some more PAGK. I prefer keeping GKT's cheap, they don't need much more wargear, they are already awesome units. An incinerator is cheap and adds a lot of anti-infantry effectiveness.

 

Anyway, if you can make it work, power to you. I prefer the incinerator, and taking psycannons on PAGK.

[ferrous]

You're right in that there is no right way/ wrong way.

 

I don't like using PAGKs as firebases as they are less resistant to fire and can't move and shoot to maintain the 36" spread and will need to move into scoring position.

 

I'm also not sure where you're getting your 75 pts from, holocaust is 20 pts, psycannons are 25 pts, which makes 45 pts. Still expensive, but not as bad.

 

 

But our opinions are colored by our opponents, I rarely face horde much these days, mostly SM, CSM, Tau and Eldar. DS with your termies against oblits is agood way to lose all your termies. Most of the horde i do face, normal flamers will do the job with IST.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I don't like using PAGKs as firebases as they are less resistant to fire and can't move and shoot to maintain the 36" spread and will need to move into scoring position.

 

Your choice. Btw, psycannons have an effective range of 24" (if you include movement), so you get a pretty good deal over other armies (whose move+shoot ability is 12" usually).

 

I'm also not sure where you're getting your 75 pts from, holocaust is 20 pts, psycannons are 25 pts, which makes 45 pts. Still expensive, but not as bad.

 

Brother-Captain psycannon = 30

Squad psycannon = 25

Holocaust = 20

 

Hence, 75. Thats the loadout someone suggested before, so I responded to it.

 

But our opinions are colored by our opponents, I rarely face horde much these days, mostly SM, CSM, Tau and Eldar. DS with your termies against oblits is agood way to lose all your termies. Most of the horde i do face, normal flamers will do the job with IST.

 

:D Yeah, cos thats all I do when I Deepstrike.

 

Also, why would you take flamers with IST's? Their BS4 is a valuable asset, as is the meltaguns/plasma they can bring to the table. If you want flamers just get them a Chimera with heavy flamer turret.

 

I prefer Deepstriking Terminators where possible, because while the new consolidation rules make it hard to 'roll' a gunline, if you co-ordinate their assault (ie hammer nearby units which could counter-assault/shoot you), you can tear a whole flank apart. The Grandmaster (only at 2k or higher mind) is pretty much the best T4 close-combat character short of Marneus Calgar, and he can force weapon that chump before Calgar can slap him down with the Gauntlets. With the Brother-Captain and friends it's ok to sulk in the backlines and rain psycannon death into the enemy while advancing (cos they are pretty cost-effective), but if I'm taking the GM I usually deepstrike him with an incinerator on his bodyguards.

[DevianID]

The Grandmaster (only at 2k or higher mind) is pretty much the best T4 close-combat character short of Marneus Calgar

 

Calgar is immune to instant death, thus immune to force weapons. The Grandmaster is gonna lose that pretty bad, and fast, if the two face off, or if he faces anything thats either immune to instant death or hiding a powerfist. Also, as a slap in the face, Calgar (along with EVERY other captain and master) is WS6, thus hitting the poor outdated grandmaster on a 3.

 

Also, thanks for all the feedback regarding the crazy math. to answer the question

So did that all get summed up as mathmatical evidence of the basic precept we have that says to excel at the other armies weakness because Grey Knights are well rounded

Not exactly... Grey Knights ALWAYS have to attack the enemies weakness, and retreat from an enemies strength. What my math was trying to illustrate is that which is better is based on what you will have to face more of. I believe there are going to be more space marine players than orks by a large margin, considering all the flavors of marines and their new book, and also because orks are the most efficient as hordes of shoota boyz, and fortunately there are very few people with 180 shoota boyz, most have choppas because shootas are more expensive than masses of assault on black reach box sets. So since GKT are better versus marines, and usually there are more marine players by me, in my circle GKT are better.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Calgar is immune to instant death, thus immune to force weapons. The Grandmaster is gonna lose that pretty bad, and fast, if the two face off, or if he faces anything thats either immune to instant death or hiding a powerfist. Also, as a slap in the face, Calgar (along with EVERY other captain and master) is WS6, thus hitting the poor outdated grandmaster on a 3.

 

You are incorrect about the first part, because the Grandmaster uses the 'force weapon' rules found in the DH codex, listed there in the armoury section. GW has made it very clear that in any dispute between codex and the BRB, codex wins. Thus, the Grandmaster simply 'removes all wounds' on a successful psychic test, he doesn't cause Instant Death (and thus be nullified by the Eternal Warrior, Synapse etc rules).

 

The problem for Calgar is that he hits at I1, GM has I5. The other heroes also only hit at I5 at best, so it's likely that while they may kill the GM, he'll fry their brains at the same time. Yeah, it's annoying the WS6, but the GM only needs to cause 1 unsaved wound, which with his 5-6 attacks on the charge (I like giving him a power weapon for this purpose) and S6 power weapon is not hard at all. Then it's a simple psychic test and bam!. He can even kill Cassius.

[DevianID]

Dont forget that force weapons are rulebook weapons, just like powerfists, and unlike assault cannons. Unless the force weapon description states to use the codex versions, ala smoke launchers... if it says that, then yeah Grandmasters would be a bit better.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Dont forget that force weapons are rulebook weapons, just like powerfists, and unlike assault cannons. Unless the force weapon description states to use the codex versions, ala smoke launchers... if it says that, then yeah Grandmasters would be a bit better.

 

I repeat again, if the codex contains a different version of the same rule, the codex takes precedence.

 

Powerfists are not described in the codicies, they are merely listed as an entry. So, in that case, there is no conflict, because the only rules for powerfists exist in the BRB. Which is kinda annoying, because Combat Servitors are now totally useless (yay, that extra close-combat weapon is now pointless, because it's not another powerfist!). Even more of a reason not to tool your Inquisitor for close-combat.

 

Smoke launchers, force weapons etc are all listed seperately in our DH codex, and thus if they differ to the BRB version our codex version wins.

[DevianID]

I would caution about taking codex rules over rulebook rules where the rulebook does not say to use said codex rules--the main difference between smoke launchers and everything else. Things crop up like dark angel dev squads being scoring units if above half (not intended) and thunderhammers dont have the rulebook restriction of needing 2 like weapons (because the 'thunderhammer' in the rulebook that requires 2 for the +1 bonus attack is not the 'THUNDERHAMMER' in the daemonhunter book after all, neither is the 'power weapon' or 'bolter') You can argue all sorts of silly things, all of which unintended, or you could use the rules in the rulebook everyone else is gonna be using.

 

For me, its all about staving off a terrible experience in a tourney (what do you mean your forceweapons are different than the rulebook forceweapons I use, they are rulebook weapons not codex only weapons?) where you have to fight an uphill battle stating something like 'codex takes precedence, even if the codex is outdated or wrong' and even if the judge says yes, your force weapon can kill immune to instant death where your opponents can not, your gonna take a 0 for comp and sportsmanship, and probably suffer in painting as well.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I would caution about taking codex rules over rulebook rules where the rulebook does not say to use said codex rules--the main difference between smoke launchers and everything else. Things crop up like dark angel dev squads being scoring units if above half (not intended) and thunderhammers dont have the rulebook restriction of needing 2 like weapons (because the 'thunderhammer' in the rulebook that requires 2 for the +1 bonus attack is not the 'THUNDERHAMMER' in the daemonhunter book after all, neither is the 'power weapon' or 'bolter') You can argue all sorts of silly things, all of which unintended, or you could use the rules in the rulebook everyone else is gonna be using.

 

Well, regardless of intentions, GW hasn't FAQ'd any of those issues differently, so we can assume they intend them to stay now. Thunderhammers in the DH codex have unique stunning rules (again, codex overrules the main BRB entry for the effects of thunderhammers), but you still need a pair for the +1 attack from 'two ccw'. The DH codex doesn't contain the rules pertaining to how you figure out whether a model has 'two ccw'; those rules are in the BRB.

 

I'm not arguing 'all sorts of silly things', I'm pointing out a specific armory entry which GW hasn't touched. They made it very clear that officially we can't pinch the new assault cannon rules off vanilla SM, in three separate places (codex, BRB and latest FAQ). Also, the persistant message I am getting from both the most recent releases and conversations with GW staff are that they are moving towards 'self-containment'. That is, each army only requires the main rulebook and one codex to function, we don't need 3-4 to keep track of the different rules etc (which is the problem for DH's and WH's, who can bring in Inducted IG and SM).

 

For me, its all about staving off a terrible experience in a tourney (what do you mean your forceweapons are different than the rulebook forceweapons I use, they are rulebook weapons not codex only weapons?) where you have to fight an uphill battle stating something like 'codex takes precedence, even if the codex is outdated or wrong' and even if the judge says yes, your force weapon can kill immune to instant death where your opponents can not, your gonna take a 0 for comp and sportsmanship, and probably suffer in painting as well.

 

Point out the following section of the BRB;

 

"The following general rules explain how psychic powers are employed. Exceptions to these rules are covered in the Codexes"

 

pg. 50, BRB

 

We clearly have an exception to the normal force weapon rules, because DH force weapons do not work in the same way. There is an explicit armory entry which details our own special force weapon ability. It's an additional psychic power granted by taking a force weapon. Thus, it doesn't use rules from the BRB, it uses the Codex, as GW has indicated for all other psychic powers.

 

GW has established a doctrine of 'codex overrules in any conflict'. Your argument is not related to the apparent legality of this interpretation, you are afraid of the arbitrary rulings and scores of other players.

 

If people wanna throw a hissy fit because the most expensive model and the most expensive unit in your army (his retinue) pack a single S6 force weapon which removes wounds, calmly point out the broken aspects of his army. It will be very much a case of the pot calling the kettle black, if you are facing Lash Princes, Eldar+Avatar, Tzeentchian Flamer spam, Harlequin spam...I could go on. And there isn't really a way for them to run down your painting score, just because of the rules of the model.

By that reasoning, I would give straight zeroes to Fateweaver, because his special rule is supposedly broken (it is quite powerful), regardless of how much effort my opponent had put into the model. That would seem petty and pathetic to me, saying a lot more about me than the supposed 'cheater'. It would also earn me a lot of unnecessary enmity from fellow players, who would feel I was being a big crybaby. So, the only person who will really lose out of a rules argument is your opponent, who is making such a big fuss.

 

Anyway, most of the time it won't be an issue. There are only the following which will be affected;

 

Chaos Daemons; Expect a lot of bitching from these players anyway, because of 'Rites of Excorcism', psycannons, incinerators and Mystics.

Marines; Marneus Calgar, Lysander and Sammael; These are the only Marine characters who have immunity to ID (admantine mantle is gone). They are all extremely expensive and rare, so in most circumstances you won't face any of these. A Black Templar HQ can still buy an adamantine mantle, but again this is negated.

Eldar; Phoenix Lords; Again, these guys are not very common. Many of them will probably tear apart your Grandmaster before he can swing anyway.

CSM; Greater Daemon, Lesser Daemon, Daemon Prince, Abbadon, Khârn; Probably the second biggest source of moaning. Every CSM player and his dog takes Lash Princes, so they'll cry if the Grandmaster fries their brains. Abbadon rarely gets a look-in outside of Apoc, he's simply too beefy and expensive. Khârn has the only 'true' immunity; he cannot ever be affected by a psychic power, and his rule specifically nerfs force weapons to only be power weapons against him.

Imperial Guard; Medallion Crimson; Will be a common sight on assault Command squads, but it's not standard wargear. Anyway, a GM instant-deaths with every wound he inflicts, so he doesn't even need a psychic test in this case.

Orks; Ghaz; Again, like the Marine heroes he is too beefy for most normal games.

Tyranids; Synapse; They'll really hate it when you fry a Hive Tyrant or a Broodlord, but again these guys usually swing ahead of you and kill, so if you do survive to force-weapon them it will be a minor miracle.

Witch-hunters; All Sororitas units have immunity to the force weapon psychic ability, so like Khârn they have a natural defence that works on the DH version too.