Venerable dread...counter-attack?

[LupusGhost]

I searched around for this and didn't see anything about it, so please don't get mad at me if its sitting right in front of my face, but anyway, i commence with my story...my buddy who plays chaos decided to charge his crazy dread against my ven dread...and when i pointed out that my dread gets +1A because of counter-attack, he cried cheese (his dread got 5 on the charge!) because i should only get 3 attacks because it doesn't specifically say that dreads get it anywhere, but it also doesn't say that they don't get it, in fact the space wolf codex says "all space wolf models...except long fangs"...sorry about the long rant, so i put it out to all of you wolves, does my ven dread get counter-attack? also do any of the other dreads i take from the regular marine codex get counter-attack?

[Wolf89]

There is a topic already on this :P

 

To answer your question, the ruling we came to is that you do get the extra attack... enjoy.

[WolfLordLars]

Chaos cries cheese? Thats like a Space Wolf calling someone else a drunken braggart!

 

Yup, I had to call the rulez boyz about it (for whatever that is worth) but the wording is that SW Models, minus Long Fangs, get the +1 attack. Dreads included. Because they pass leadership tests automatically....

 

Makes for interesting situations with them.

[Max_Dammit]

No dreads don't

 

There's no LD to test so there is no counter

[Vassakov]

Codex: Space Wolves, Pg 2, Choosing Your Army

 

Note that no matter which Codex was used to find the entry for a troop type, it is the special rules that apply to Space Wolves that are used for it, rather than the special rules presented in Codex: Space Marines (ie, the unit will have acute senses, be able to counter charge etc)

 

Counter Attack I assume we all know by now.

 

As vehicles are assumed to pass all Ld checks, it must gain the bonus. The problem here is that it is only applicable to the SW's...

[WolfLordLars]

No dreads don't

 

There's no LD to test so there is no counter

 

Sorry Max, but your wrong on this one.

 

EVERY Wolf Model that has a CC attribute (as in, no non-dread vehicles) gets it. I only throw in the CC attribute because some folks will try to counter with "oh, so your tanks get it" which is just silly. Vehicles (including dreads) are assumed to automatically pass leadership tests. That means, either way, our dreads get +1 attack.

 

Thats the RAW.

[Max_Dammit]

It says troops with this skill

 

A dread is not troops but walker

 

Its what it says in the rulebook if you want to go RAW :)

[Icewolf]

Though tachnically a dreadnaught has a wolf piloting it so if the wolf was good at counter attacking then surley the dreadnaught would be good at counter attacking in a dreadnaught but just better at counter attacking as it is a dreadnaught

 

Icewolf

[WolfLordLars]

It says troops with this skill

 

A dread is not troops but walker

 

Its what it says in the rulebook if you want to go RAW :lol:

 

Incorrect, it says MODELS, not troops in the SW Codex. All SW Models have this, except Long Fangs... otherwise, none of our Scouts, BC Bikers, Wolf Guards, or HQ would get it (as none are troops).

 

Are you reading an English copy? I have found that sometimes things are lost in translation.

 

Edit: Wanted to make sure everyone knows I am posting with a smile... :lol:

[Max_Dammit]

FAQ

 

"Ignore this rule and use the rules from the 40k rule book"

 

40k rulebook says troops

[WolfLordLars]

Wait, are you reading the troops thing from the main rulebook? Might be confusion there.

 

All SW Models get it, per our codex. Its one of our special rules. I cant see anything to say why a dread is not a SW Model, so they would get it as well. If your using the use of the term "troops" from the main rules, then that would also imply that none of our non-troops models should get it, which isnt the case at all.

 

If your saying the rulebook says troops, you are meaning to imply that none of our non-troop models can counter-attack? So, Wolf Lords, WGBL, RP, WP, IP, Wolf Guard, Scouts, BC Bikers, and BC Jump Packers all dont get it? Come on... thats just silly. :lol:

 

Maybe its right, maybe its wrong, but thats how its written now, and its how its played by the majority of SW players I have spoken to about it. I say, go with it until GW FAQ's it one way or the other.

[Olmstedtr]

word for word

 

"Counter-Attac. To the SPace WOlves, attack is always the best form of defence. if charged, they wil spring forward themselves and counter-attack the enemy. to represent this, unengaged space wolf and fenrisian wolf models from a uni tthat has been charge dthe enemy must move up to 6" to into base to base contact with the enemy . treate the counter-attack as you would an assault move, so take terrain into account as normal.

 

models that counter-attack do not receive the +1 attack bonus for charging but will be able to fight with their full complement of attacks. Long Fangs may not counter-charge because they are a bit old for that kind of thing! models may counter attack if the unit they are in was charged as part of a sweeping advance, in which case the move is made immediatly after the unit that made the sweeping advance completes its move."

 

Chambers, Andy, Jervis Johnson, Gavin Thorpe. Codex: Space Wolves. 2000, Nottingham, England

 

 

there i have credited GW making that completly legal

 

now for the rule book

 

Counter Attack: Troops with this skill believe that attack is always the best form of defence. if assaulted, they will spring forward themselves and feroiciously counter attack the charging enemy

 

to represent this, when a unit with this rule is assaulted by the enemy it must take a leadership test. if the test is successful all moels in the unit get the +1 assault bonus to their attacks exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn.

 

this rule cannot be usid if, when assaulted, the unit, was already locked in combat freom a previous turn.

 

Cavatore, Allesio,Warhammer 40000. 2008, Nottingham, London

 

 

in the rulebook it may say troop but this does NOT mean the troop choice such as grey slayers and blood claws this means soldiers whether they be dreadnaughts guardsmen, chaos, grey slayers, and god forbid other space marines.

 

the codex says simply that long fangs do not get this rule. vehicles without ws do not get this as they can not assault or take part in close combat. so therefor your dreadnaught as he is a SPACE WOLF dreadnaught gets his extra attack for being charged. and as such all vehicles walker, tank, skimmer, fast vehicles automatically pass leadership tests then he automatcially gets the extra attack.

 

also all sources are noted to the fullest extent making my post legal. it pays to pay attention in english class

[Max_Dammit]

If your saying the rulebook says troops, you are meaning to imply that none of our non-troop models can counter-attack? So, Wolf Lords, WGBL, RP, WP, IP, Wolf Guard, Scouts, BC Bikers, and BC Jump Packers all dont get it? Come on... thats just silly. :lol:

Are all troops

They dont have a special line saying there something else, tanks and walkers do

 

Our ven dread already has more attacks than a normal one, and i'm not playing this game to win but to have fun so ill live without that one attack till there's a FAQ that says you can

[WolfLordLars]

If your saying the rulebook says troops, you are meaning to imply that none of our non-troop models can counter-attack? So, Wolf Lords, WGBL, RP, WP, IP, Wolf Guard, Scouts, BC Bikers, and BC Jump Packers all dont get it? Come on... thats just silly. :lol:

Are all troops

They dont have a special line saying there something else, tanks and walkers do

 

Our ven dread already has more attacks than a normal one, and i'm not playing this game to win but to have fun so ill live without that one attack till there's a FAQ that says you can

 

Noooo... some are elites, some HQ, some fast attack... not all troops.

 

Now, if they had said all "infantry" get it or some such, cant argue there. If your trying to use the dictionary definition of troops, then it still applies.

 

troop /trup/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[troop] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation,

–noun

1. an assemblage of persons or things; company; band.

2. a great number or multitude: A whole troop of children swarmed through the museum.

3. Military. an armored cavalry or cavalry unit consisting of two or more platoons and a headquarters group.

4. troops, a body of soldiers, police, etc.: Mounted troops quelled the riot.

 

I think our walkers are included in our body of soldiers... :lol:

 

Thats your choice to not use it if you feel its wrong, but right now the RAW support Dreads getting +1 on the counter-attack. All wolf models get it, and a dread is a wolf model. I think its in line with the feel of our army as well.

 

To each their own.

[Spacefrisian]

If your saying the rulebook says troops, you are meaning to imply that none of our non-troop models can counter-attack? So, Wolf Lords, WGBL, RP, WP, IP, Wolf Guard, Scouts, BC Bikers, and BC Jump Packers all dont get it? Come on... thats just silly. :lol:

Are all troops

They dont have a special line saying there something else, tanks and walkers do

 

Our ven dread already has more attacks than a normal one, and i'm not playing this game to win but to have fun so ill live without that one attack till there's a FAQ that says you can

 

Codex overrules rulebook.

 

BTW: its not our fault that we can eploit many things its GW's fault for not making a new SW codex and if i think about it i don't think i really want a new one. eg Can you say cheese when we say counter attack.

[Max_Dammit]

Codex overrules rulebook.

 

FAQ overrules codex

 

Last time and last defence ;)

 

Page 56

VEHICLES

 

Vihicles have......Similar way to troops.

Says to me, everything except vehicles are troops, dreads are vehicles as its in the section vehicles

 

In your defence as to PRO counter on dreads page 73

Squadron of walkers

....and react to being assaulted in same way as infantry

 

This stil doesent take away the rules of counter attack and the fact only troops get this ;)

 

Remember, I'm having this discussion in good fun and am just telling how i see it and am in no way saying you shouldn't use it

[Icewolf]

now for the rule book

 

Counter Attack: Troops with this skill believe that attack is always the best form of defence. if assaulted, they will spring forward themselves and feroiciously counter attack the charging enemy

 

to represent this, when a unit with this rule is assaulted by the enemy it must take a leadership test. if the test is successful all moels in the unit get the +1 assault bonus to their attacks exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn.

 

this rule cannot be usid if, when assaulted, the unit, was already locked in combat freom a previous turn.

 

Cavatore, Allesio,Warhammer 40000. 2008, Nottingham, London

 

in the rulebook it may say troop but this does NOT mean the troop choice such as grey slayers and blood claws this means soldiers whether they be dreadnaughts guardsmen, chaos, grey slayers, and god forbid other space marines.

 

the codex says simply that long fangs do not get this rule. vehicles without ws do not get this as they can not assault or take part in close combat. so therefor your dreadnaught as he is a SPACE WOLF dreadnaught gets his extra attack for being charged. and as such all vehicles walker, tank, skimmer, fast vehicles automatically pass leadership tests then he automatcially gets the extra attack.

 

also all sources are noted to the fullest extent making my post legal. it pays to pay attention in english class

 

I agree in the special fules section troops to me says not actual troop choices but any model with that special rule e.g. A Wolf Lord in his special rules has counter attack listed but as he is not a troop choice but a HQ choice then using the rule book means that he does not get the attack which is kinda silly and wrong as blood claws or gre hunters will charge forward in their enemies but a wolf lord will not.

 

Icewolf

[Megalodon]

These kind of discussions are why I've been an avid supporter of Wolves being in dire need of a new codex. It's not that our list is bad, it's just that our book was written 8 years and 2 editions ago thus creating wonky situations.

[WolfLordLars]

Max - I disagree of your interpretation of "troops" in the USR. I think troops applies to all units, not just infantry. If they had said infantry (which is a type of troops) maybe, but they didnt. I feel that walkers are included.

 

Like I said, to each their own. I fully intend to use the rule as its written.

[The Mangler]

This is what it says in the rule book.

 

"Counter Attack: Troops with this skill believe that attack is always the best form of defense. if assaulted, they will spring forward themselves and ferociously counter attack the charging enemy

to represent this, when a unit with this rule is assaulted by the enemy it must take a leadership test. if the test is successful all models in the unit get the +1 assault bonus to their attacks exactly as if they too had assaulted that turn.

this rule cannot be used if, when assaulted, the unit, was already locked in combat from a previous turn."

 

The fluff bit at the top says why models get the plus one attack but when it actually says what the rule does it says a unit.

According to the writing only troops believe that attack is the best form of defense but all units with the skill gain the +1 attack.

 

This is the reasoning we used when a supreme headquarters gave a warhound counter attack in a apocalypse game.

[WolfLordLars]

Wow... a titan? They can get into CC?

[Wolf89]

Wow... a titan? They can get into CC?

 

Usually they blow the crap up that's about to assault them, but from what I've been seeing, Vanguard DS'ing in will be the most likely unit to get into combat with them. :)

[Valhalla]

Guys, I have to agree with Max but for a different reason. It says in the codex and rule book that counter attack is for "unengaged" units, and since as I far as I know a Dreadnought cannot be attached to another unit to gain the +1 Attack.

[Level]

Valhalla has hit the nail on the head there, according to the codex only unengaged models could counter thus making the entire argument invalid as if a dread gets charged it will be in base to base and therefore can not make the counter attack.

 

However now with the new rules for counter attack in the rulebook it says nothing about unengaged models as the entire unit can counter, so if that is the case then now the dread can actually counter and as has been stated will automatically pass the leadership test because it is a vehicle.

 

very nice.

[WolfLordLars]

FAQ says to ignore codex (all units can move up to engage, they changed CC rules in 5th). Rulebook says if you pass a leadership test, you get +1 attack. Dread (vehicle) auto passes leadership, thus +1.