Hell's Angels from Hell

[Brother Styphus]

A look into bending the rules here. The rules in the BRB state that only infantry can embark transports, unless stated otherwise by the codex. This is on page 66. Ok time to be a douche.

 

First think I would like to point out is the word "embark" on page 66. It explains embarking as units within range getting in. Now please turn to page 94, column 1, paragraph 6. It mentions nothing about embarking. It is either full or not. That means that if there was a non-infantry unit that selected a transport and started in reserves, this would be possible.

 

Here we go..

 

If you are an evil shameful pirate, please scroll to page 61.. I mean flip your legitimate copy to page 132. Please note the HQ squad choice Command Squad. It has the Dedicated Transport option to take a drop pod, which can carry 12 models. Luckily you can only have 5 squad members. Now please refer to Unit Options. For a set price, you can give every member of the squad a space marine bike.

 

Please don't hate on me. This popped up on accident when I was looking through units for the Sons of Librarium thread. I would never use this unit, but if someone sees this foul logic, I hope they use my name for it. "Hell's Angels from Hell" please.

 

I personally would only use this unit with a certain weapon upgrade set. All 4 vets with twin thunder hammers. Oh yeah.

[Praeger]

And what are you trying to point out???

[Kurasuke]

I think he is saying that one can drop pod bikes or something?

[turelhim vampire]

If anyone tried this one with me, I would feed them their drop pod. I am not even going to get into how much this is wishful thinking.

 

No.

 

Just... no.

[WarpSpawn]

If what you are trying to suggest is that the unit does not have to "embark", therefore can bypass the normal restriction on only infantry embarking, you (or whoever suggested it to you) will have to try harder.

 

The rules for transports to not just say "only infantry may embark", they say a transport may "carry a single infantry unit". So, it does not matter how they get in there, they have to be infantry to be in it at all.

 

Or are you trying to suggest that bikes are somehow infantry?

[Mordekiem]

Unless the marine codex specifically states they can put bikes into a pod then they can't.

 

Sure you may be able to buy a drop od for a unit fo bikes, but the pod will remain empty. Just as if you bought a razorback for a 10 man marine squad. If you don't combat squad the unit you can't have it ride in the razorback.

 

So by the OPs reasoning all the marine player got was an empty drop pod... :D

[Brother Styphus]

I'm looking for where it specifically says only infantry can ride drop pods. In the drop pod entry it only mentions "12 models".

 

 

----edit------

On other forums instead of disproving it (please use citation) the users asked about the tactical usefulness of said squad. It can do special things, but in the end it is a very expensive squad. I would only use this for the 'Cool Factor'.

 

Unless the marine codex specifically states they can put bikes into a pod then they can't.

 

Please next time use my citation. That "unless specified" rule is only for embarking.

 

Now for the rules about units riding a transport. P 66 column 1, paragraphs 6 and 7. The space marine bike is not specified for size taken up in a transport. For the seventh paragraph: It does not specify which types of models can embark a drop pod.

 

Now someone please disprove me the correct way. I've read through the Drop Pod entry, and I've even checked the space marine bike entry, and nothing was present. I want to be disproved.

[WarpSpawn]

It does not need to specifically say only infantry can ride drop pods. It is a transport. For this, we refer to page 66 of BRB5, which says:

 

A transport may carry a single infantry unit and/or any number of independent characters (as long as they count as infantry), up to a total of models equal to the vehicle’s transport capacity.

 

Why discuss the tactical usefulness of an illegal combo (as noted above, they can buy the transport but cannot use it). Might as well discuss the merits of a Chaplain with a las-cannon. Maybe a fun discussion but hardly belongs in a rules forum.

 

Edit: By the way, if you want to get really rules laywerish about it and say starting in a vehicle is not the same as embarking, you've just proven non-infantry cannot ride it, no matter what the codex says. If it only says non-infantry can "embark" as per a given codex, this means they cannot (by your logic) start the game in the vehicle and can only "embark" once it enters play. Live by the RAW, die by the RAW.

[Brother Styphus]

Well at least you cited it. Beware late night logic.

 

lock on and destroy this thread mods. Next time I'll spend more time looking at the first line and less at the rules for embarking :)

[Mordekiem]

I'm looking for where it specifically says only infantry can ride drop pods. In the drop pod entry it only mentions "12 models".

 

 

----edit------

On other forums instead of disproving it (please use citation) the users asked about the tactical usefulness of said squad. It can do special things, but in the end it is a very expensive squad. I would only use this for the 'Cool Factor'.

 

Unless the marine codex specifically states they can put bikes into a pod then they can't.

 

Please next time use my citation. That "unless specified" rule is only for embarking.

 

Now for the rules about units riding a transport. P 66 column 1, paragraphs 6 and 7. The space marine bike is not specified for size taken up in a transport. For the seventh paragraph: It does not specify which types of models can embark a drop pod.

 

Now someone please disprove me the correct way. I've read through the Drop Pod entry, and I've even checked the space marine bike entry, and nothing was present. I want to be disproved.

I'm not sure what you are asking from me, but I think Warpspawn pretty much answered this thread.

 

By the way, if you want to get really rules laywerish about it and say starting in a vehicle is not the same as embarking,

just to put another nail into this coffin...

Pg 92, Deploy forces, clearly states that a unit put into a vehicle during deployment is embarked.

"...always make clear with your opponent which squads are embarked in which transport vehicle."

 

So the combination of pg 66 and pg 92 make it pretty clear that bikes cannot go into a drop pod. So as I said before, unless the new marine codex specifically states bikes can go in a drop pod the unit is just buying an empty drop pod.

[AlexCrute]

Dreads can ride in pods

 

Bikes are smaller than dreads

 

Apocalypse outlines how many models a bike counts as (can't remember how many - either 2 or 3)

 

Ergo, at least 3 bikes (possibly up to 5 depending what the apoc book says) can fit in a pod (it would be a dread pod, before fluff nazis protest).

 

I say so it.

[WarpSpawn]

Bikes however are still not infantry.

 

The rules for drop pods do not give permission for "the rough equivelent of 12 marines or a dreadnaught" to ride it, they give permission for 12 infantry models (infantry implied by transport rules) or a single dread or thunderfire (with techmarine). Nothing else.

 

Honestly, I don't see as there is room for interpretation here.

[Mordekiem]

Dreads can ride in pods

 

Bikes are smaller than dreads

 

Apocalypse outlines how many models a bike counts as (can't remember how many - either 2 or 3)

 

Ergo, at least 3 bikes (possibly up to 5 depending what the apoc book says) can fit in a pod (it would be a dread pod, before fluff nazis protest).

 

I say so it.

Show me a rule or an exception that says bikes can go in a drop pod. Until you do you are just blowing smoke.

[SeattleDV8]

Warp and Mord are dead on. Bikes do Not get to DS in drop pods. Hee But if you are DA you can outflank.

[Atma]

Ok, time to douche it up a notch.

 

The classification for a command squad is "Infantry".

 

Now, unlike Jump Packs, the Space Marine Bike wargear entry does not change your unit type to "Bike" It merely states that a model on a Space Marine Bike "Follows all of the rules for Bikes".

 

Nothing in the Bike rules changes your Unit type to Bike.

 

Ergo, Command Squads and Independant Characters mounted on Bikes are technically Infantry that follow all of the rules for Bikes, and as their unit type classification is still Infantry, they are allowed to embark on transports.

 

Anyone able to shoot me down? Please. I really, really want someone to, because it is stupid and cheesy to the max.

[WarpSpawn]

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to mention that. I'd been considering that point since the original post and hoping that nobody would ever dare to try it in a game.

 

No, I'm not sure anyone using that logic can be disproven as such, except through the medium of violence. Clearly, to anyone with a modicum of common sense, a model on a bike is a biker, and I have no doubt at any tournament worth attending, they would rule against such a scumbag as would try to actually use this.

[nighthawks]

by the same logic, characters with jump packs could join squads and embark into transports (their entry states that tehy are infantry). the wargear can change the unit classification, the trick seems to be finding text to support such a claim as logic seems to have an off switch with regard to the beardiest players.

[WarpSpawn]

The main problem, that makes it harder to dismiss this ridiculous suggestion that right-minded people would like, is essentially this:

 

Jump packs in the wargear section say they become jump infantry. Bikes however, for some bizzarre reason, simply say they follow the rules for bikes. So, whilst it is a feeble technicality, the unit type is still infantry.

 

So, whilst anyone trying it should probably be force fed their army case, it is not as clear as it could be.

[Shiodome]

you could make a really nice conversion of a drop pod, with 4 bikes 'clamped' vertically to the hatches (inside of course), and the bikers in their harnesses. then upon landing the hatches come down, hatches realese the bikes, now sitting upright on both wheels. marines mount and drive off.

 

the rules seem to give a pretty clear 'no' to this in my opinion. but fluff wise and visually i love the idea. :tu: (it's not terribly usefull ingame though... why drop pod such a small unit when it could use it's native speed to get to the same location, and still shoot/assault?)

[Mordekiem]

Ok, time to douche it up a notch.

 

The classification for a command squad is "Infantry".

 

Now, unlike Jump Packs, the Space Marine Bike wargear entry does not change your unit type to "Bike" It merely states that a model on a Space Marine Bike "Follows all of the rules for Bikes".

 

Nothing in the Bike rules changes your Unit type to Bike.

 

Ergo, Command Squads and Independant Characters mounted on Bikes are technically Infantry that follow all of the rules for Bikes, and as their unit type classification is still Infantry, they are allowed to embark on transports.

 

Anyone able to shoot me down? Please. I really, really want someone to, because it is stupid and cheesy to the max.

While it doesn't specifically say they become unit type: bike I think the implication is pretty clear that they follow the rules for bikes and can do or not do what a unit of bikes can and can't do.

 

The codex also says to follow the rules for bikes in the warhammer rulebook and the warhammer rulebook clearly state that bikes are a unit type.

 

So while it is not specifically mentioned the rational for not being bikes is no stronger than the rational for not being bikes.

 

As for the intention of the rules I think that is pretty clear.

[Atma]

Ok, time to douche it up a notch.

 

The classification for a command squad is "Infantry".

 

Now, unlike Jump Packs, the Space Marine Bike wargear entry does not change your unit type to "Bike" It merely states that a model on a Space Marine Bike "Follows all of the rules for Bikes".

 

Nothing in the Bike rules changes your Unit type to Bike.

 

Ergo, Command Squads and Independant Characters mounted on Bikes are technically Infantry that follow all of the rules for Bikes, and as their unit type classification is still Infantry, they are allowed to embark on transports.

 

Anyone able to shoot me down? Please. I really, really want someone to, because it is stupid and cheesy to the max.

While it doesn't specifically say they become unit type: bike I think the implication is pretty clear that they follow the rules for bikes and can do or not do what a unit of bikes can and can't do.

 

The codex also says to follow the rules for bikes in the warhammer rulebook and the warhammer rulebook clearly state that bikes are a unit type.

 

So while it is not specifically mentioned the rational for not being bikes is no stronger than the rational for not being bikes.

 

As for the intention of the rules I think that is pretty clear.

 

While I agree with you 100%, unfortunately it is not clear enough, because despite how I think we all wish it was, Warhammer is played by the rules as written, not the rules of common sense.

 

Nothing explicitly changes them to unit type of Bikes, like Jump Packs directly do, so unfortunately due to a minor oversight in the wording of a piece of wargear, I can't find anything to make it illegal.

[Mordekiem]

While I agree with you 100%, unfortunately it is not clear enough, because despite how I think we all wish it was, Warhammer is played by the rules as written, not the rules of common sense.

 

Nothing explicitly changes them to unit type of Bikes, like Jump Packs directly do, so unfortunately due to a minor oversight in the wording of a piece of wargear, I can't find anything to make it illegal.

I disagree. You can't 100% go by RAW. There must be some wiggle room for obvious mistakes, errors and interpretation. And in this case it is an obvious poor wording and oversight. It is unclear whether they are or are not bikes or infantry. So in the absence of any clear rule then you have no choice but to use other means.

 

For example, did you let terminators in the old SM codex have terminator armor? It was not listed as a wargear item.

 

Can blood angels get into or out of their rhinos? Sure they can. But the rules do not say they have access points.

 

I can go on (and on and on and on) if you like.

 

The good news: Before the first turn even starts you will know if your opponent is trying to pull this (they must clearly indicate what squads are in what transports) and you can tell them to get lost. As for a tourny I seriously doubt any reasonable judge would allow this (but I've seen and heard some wierd stuff, before)

[Atma]

While I agree with you 100%, unfortunately it is not clear enough, because despite how I think we all wish it was, Warhammer is played by the rules as written, not the rules of common sense.

 

Nothing explicitly changes them to unit type of Bikes, like Jump Packs directly do, so unfortunately due to a minor oversight in the wording of a piece of wargear, I can't find anything to make it illegal.

I disagree. You can't 100% go by RAW. There must be some wiggle room for obvious mistakes, errors and interpretation. And in this case it is an obvious poor wording and oversight. It is unclear whether they are or are not bikes or infantry. So in the absence of any clear rule then you have no choice but to use other means.

 

For example, did you let terminators in the old SM codex have terminator armor? It was not listed as a wargear item.

 

Can blood angels get into or out of their rhinos? Sure they can. But the rules do not say they have access points.

 

I can go on (and on and on and on) if you like.

 

The good news: Before the first turn even starts you will know if your opponent is trying to pull this (they must clearly indicate what squads are in what transports) and you can tell them to get lost. As for a tourny I seriously doubt any reasonable judge would allow this (but I've seen and heard some wierd stuff, before)

 

The problem is that, while we both assume that this is an oversight, one must consider Occam's Razor. There were no less then 3 points where Games Workshop could have nipped this in the bud, but yet chose not to. They could have restricted the choice of a transport if the squad was on bikes. They could have said "if a transport is not chosen" before the bike entry. They could have also worded the bike entry more explicitly. It may be entirely intentional, given that we are talking about a command squad (so, amongst the best and most capable of marines) and indeps (again, same thign) that command squads on bikes can be mounted in a drop pod. After all - this is the only unit that can accomplish such a feat.

 

To use WarpSpawn's example directly, One must also consider the obscure wording on Space Marine Bikes. Why not keep it simple and just say "Space Marines mounted on bikes are Bikes", exactly like jump packs do? Again, the simplest explaination is that, for some reason, possibly this one exactly, they did not want them to count as Bikes.

 

Personally, I happen to believe that unfortunately, people arguing that it's possible have a stronger position on this then those who do not, based on all these factors combining.

[SeattleDV8]

Then why don't they have the number of bikes allowed for a drop pod? I see the number of infantry, and dreadnoughts. In fact are terminators even allowed in the C:sm? (even if you could make the argument for DP bikes because they were infantry there is no way you could put 10 in a drop pod. No rule for how many are allowed then I would say None are allowed. I feel that you are really reaching.

[Atma]

Then why don't they have the number of bikes allowed for a drop pod? I see the number of infantry, and dreadnoughts. In fact are terminators even allowed in the C:sm? (even if you could make the argument for DP bikes because they were infantry there is no way you could put 10 in a drop pod. No rule for how many are allowed then I would say None are allowed. I feel that you are really reaching.

 

Yes, Models in Terminator Armor are allowed in Drop Pods, but the only way to get such to occur is an Indep in Terminator Armor joining a squad that has the DP option. Normal Terminator squads don't get DPs as a dedicated option.

 

My counter is that they are still counted as infantry and, thus far, no one has provided any evidence to the contrary except for common sense. Honestly, as much as I love common sense, when the other guy lays down a rules justification and your only response is "come on, that's completely silly", you don't win the debate.

 

So, In response there is no need to define a number. Only infantry are allowed in transports (to put a transport capacity on bikes would imply that other squads that actually have a unit type of "Bikes" could embark), and the maximum number of models is actually 12 now. That being said, the ACTUAL maximum that would be allowed is 7, and the reasoning for that odd number is 5 for the squad, and 2 for both your HQ choices being mounted on bikes and joining the squad. And honestly, if you are going to try to argue you can fit 12 guys in that thing, I'm going to argue you can fit 7 bikes.