Hell's Angels from Hell

[WarpSpawn]

The problem is that, while we both assume that this is an oversight, one must consider Occam's Razor. There were no less then 3 points where Games Workshop could have nipped this in the bud, but yet chose not to. They could have restricted the choice of a transport if the squad was on bikes. They could have said "if a transport is not chosen" before the bike entry. They could have also worded the bike entry more explicitly.

 

 

"They could have restricted the choice of a transport if the squad was on bikes."- This is not the cse. A squad can take a transport and leave it empty or, if it is not a pod, let it transport someone else later in the game.

 

"They could have said "if a transport is not chosen" before the bike entry."- See above. They did not need to say this at all.

 

"They could have also worded the bike entry more explicitly"- This one they should have done.

 

It may be entirely intentional, given that we are talking about a command squad (so, amongst the best and most capable of marines) and indeps (again, same thign) that command squads on bikes can be mounted in a drop pod.

 

I don't personally consider this to be a very convincing argument. Why should the command squad being sell equiped and elite change the capabilities of a standard Space Marine drop pod?

 

If they wanted to allow them to use drop pods, they did not have to use such obscure, ambiguous wording. All they had to do was say was that bikes could go in drop pods, then only allow that transport choice for command squads (and normal bikers already cannot take them so they only really needed to list a capacity for bikers).

 

To use WarpSpawn's example directly, One must also consider the obscure wording on Space Marine Bikes. Why not keep it simple and just say "Space Marines mounted on bikes are Bikes", exactly like jump packs do? Again, the simplest explaination is that, for some reason, possibly this one exactly, they did not want them to count as Bikes.

 

So, since your first 2 assumptions are incorrect and this is clearly not the simplest way of achieving drop podding, biker command squads, without ambiguity, I suggest that the simplest explaination is that it is a mistake.

 

Personally, whilst this still does not 100% disprove your point, I think it does blunt your occam's razor somewhat.

[Mordekiem]

While I agree with you 100%, unfortunately it is not clear enough, because despite how I think we all wish it was, Warhammer is played by the rules as written, not the rules of common sense.

 

Nothing explicitly changes them to unit type of Bikes, like Jump Packs directly do, so unfortunately due to a minor oversight in the wording of a piece of wargear, I can't find anything to make it illegal.

I disagree. You can't 100% go by RAW. There must be some wiggle room for obvious mistakes, errors and interpretation. And in this case it is an obvious poor wording and oversight. It is unclear whether they are or are not bikes or infantry. So in the absence of any clear rule then you have no choice but to use other means.

 

For example, did you let terminators in the old SM codex have terminator armor? It was not listed as a wargear item.

 

Can blood angels get into or out of their rhinos? Sure they can. But the rules do not say they have access points.

 

I can go on (and on and on and on) if you like.

 

The good news: Before the first turn even starts you will know if your opponent is trying to pull this (they must clearly indicate what squads are in what transports) and you can tell them to get lost. As for a tourny I seriously doubt any reasonable judge would allow this (but I've seen and heard some wierd stuff, before)

 

The problem is that, while we both assume that this is an oversight, one must consider Occam's Razor. There were no less then 3 points where Games Workshop could have nipped this in the bud, but yet chose not to. They could have restricted the choice of a transport if the squad was on bikes. They could have said "if a transport is not chosen" before the bike entry. They could have also worded the bike entry more explicitly. It may be entirely intentional, given that we are talking about a command squad (so, amongst the best and most capable of marines) and indeps (again, same thign) that command squads on bikes can be mounted in a drop pod. After all - this is the only unit that can accomplish such a feat.

 

To use WarpSpawn's example directly, One must also consider the obscure wording on Space Marine Bikes. Why not keep it simple and just say "Space Marines mounted on bikes are Bikes", exactly like jump packs do? Again, the simplest explaination is that, for some reason, possibly this one exactly, they did not want them to count as Bikes.

 

Personally, I happen to believe that unfortunately, people arguing that it's possible have a stronger position on this then those who do not, based on all these factors combining.

You say Occams Razor supports your position, but I would disagree. The easiest and most obvious answer is that bikes cannot go into the pod and count as bikes instead of infantry. This is the position that all the rules point to as being the most obvious and simplest. Only by twisting a rule (that I admit could have been much more explicit) can you reach your position.

 

But hey, if you want to try to play this way and can convince your group to do it then more power to you.

[Reglor]

If the unit dosn't become a Bike unit, does the Codex tell you how they move or shoot. If they don't become bikes and the Codex doesn't reprint the bike rules for them then they and just infantry and don't get any of the benifets (Toughness +1, move 12", and such)

[Praeger]

Look, you all seam to be missing the obvious.

 

A model on a bike uses ALL the rules for bikes. This INCLUDES the unit type as it is a rule for bikes.

 

So to make it simple:

 

Put a model on a bike, you now follow ALL bike rules. Bike rules say they cant use transports so theres your answer.

[WarpSpawn]

Actually Praeger, the problem really comes down to the same thing as the discussion about "as if" v "counts as".

 

To follow the rules for bikes essentialy means they behave as if they were bikers, not that they count as bikers. The important (though highly pedantic) distinction is that "as if" bikers does not change the unit type and the biker rules themselves have no such restriction on embarking.

 

So, whilst it is one of those things no reasonable, right-minded person would try, it is not so easy to disprove through RAW if someone did try it.

 

That said, one possible thing to point to is that, whether the unit tpe changes not, the unit has 5 bikes and the pod makes no mention of a capacity for either bikes or bikers.

[Brother Styphus]

Someone on LO has pointed something out that is very interesting. In the rules for the SM bike, it makes no mention of changing the unit type. Check Jump Packs, and you'll see that it turns the squad to jump infantry. Taking a bike as an upgrade just means they are infantry using the bike rules.

[WarpSpawn]

Yeah, we already mentioned that one, thanks.

 

One thing though, although you might try and argue that the bike is simply an item of wargear, a bike is in fact a unit type, defined in the BRB. Even if you try and argue that the model is not actually on the bike (despite somehow, mysteriously benefitting from it as if they were), the bike is not allowed in the transport.

[Spacefrisian]

I'am getting dejavu memories here. Anyone remember the scoutserg in TDA armour armed with a Sniper.

 

Just use common sense. Terminators are kicked out of Pods but bikes get in?

[Brother Styphus]

Common sense doesn't always work. I've seen someone shoot a guardian heavy weapon from a gunner, and not the actual model. Rules lawyers can get away with tons of stuff. The model has the rules of a bike, but does not change it's unit type to bike.

 

 

 

-----edit-----

 

It says nowhere that riding a bike changes the unit type. Just thought I would post it twice so the message got through. Maybe I'll get lucky and some GW editor will see this dumb thread and do a quick second glance at the bike wargear option.

[WarpSpawn]

Would you be so kind as to share with the class then where they stash the actual bikes, which do have a unit type of "bike"?

 

As I said before, bike is a defined unit type, so the bikes they have cannot go in the pod, even if they can. Since you cannot seperate them from their bikes during the battle, the net result is they cannot ride the pod.

[Cypher 102]

Common sense doesn't always work. I've seen someone shoot a guardian heavy weapon from a gunner, and not the actual model. Rules lawyers can get away with tons of stuff. The model has the rules of a bike, but does not change it's unit type to bike.

 

That's because the eldar codex specifically says that range and line of sight are measured from one of the crewmen and not the gun model.

[Brother Styphus]

Common sense doesn't always work. I've seen someone shoot a guardian heavy weapon from a gunner, and not the actual model. Rules lawyers can get away with tons of stuff. The model has the rules of a bike, but does not change it's unit type to bike.

 

That's because the eldar codex specifically says that range and line of sight are measured from one of the crewmen and not the gun model.

 

Uh huh. Well isn't that silly. He has laser beam eyes I guess.

 

WarpSpawn: This isn't about common sense, it's about twisting words around and getting outrageous things. They are on bikes, follow their rules, but do not change their unit type.

[Praeger]

To follow the rules for bikes essentialy means they behave as if they were bikers, not that they count as bikers. The important (though highly pedantic) distinction is that "as if" bikers does not change the unit type and the biker rules themselves have no such restriction on embarking.

 

I havnt been able to check the exact wording - but does it say they follow all the bikers rules? Or that they move as if they where bikers?

 

Key difrence - if they follow all bike rules then that means the unit type is changed as well as one of the rules of "bikes" is that they are unit type bike.

[Mordekiem]

To follow the rules for bikes essentialy means they behave as if they were bikers, not that they count as bikers. The important (though highly pedantic) distinction is that "as if" bikers does not change the unit type and the biker rules themselves have no such restriction on embarking.

 

I havnt been able to check the exact wording - but does it say they follow all the bikers rules? Or that they move as if they where bikers?

 

Key difrence - if they follow all bike rules then that means the unit type is changed as well as one of the rules of "bikes" is that they are unit type bike.

The wording is ambigious, but I think the intention is clear.

[WarpSpawn]

WarpSpawn: This isn't about common sense, it's about twisting words around and getting outrageous things. They are on bikes, follow their rules, but do not change their unit type.

 

I'm not talking common sense, I'm talking RAW.

 

A bike is a unit as defined by the BRB. If you buy them a bike and claim their unit type is unchanged (are they not riding it or something?), you still have that bike to deal with. The bike itself is not infantry, it is a bike. So, you keep telling yourself that the unit type of the command squad is unchanged. You still ain't putting a bike in a pod.

[Brother Styphus]

you've never seen a bike rack on a car?

[WarpSpawn]

Yes, I have. I am also aware that you have to have unit type "infantry" to ride inside the car (even though some rules laywering scumbags find loopholes to put "beasts" in as well).

 

Also, do you see a bike rack on a drop pod?

[King Tiger]

WarpSpawn: This isn't about common sense, it's about twisting words around and getting outrageous things. They are on bikes, follow their rules, but do not change their unit type.

 

I'm not talking common sense, I'm talking RAW.

thats the problem

[WarpSpawn]

And there was me thinking this is a rules forum. How could I have been so stupid? ;)

 

I am spectacularly failing to see your point King Tiger as, whilst (with hindsight) I do see some comedy value in how I phrased that ("Screw common sense dammit, were talking about RAW!" :D ), the RAW argument I am trying to use is also supported by common sense anyway.

 

Or are you really trying to suggest that comon sense says bikes can ride the pod?

[Brother Styphus]

I'm still waiting for you to point where it says that just because they follow the rules makes them the unit type. It wouldn't have been an issue, except that Jump Packs specifically mention the unit type changing.

[SeattleDV8]

What happens when you put a jet pack on?....you become jump infantry

What happens when you put terminator armour on a SM vet.? ....you become a terminator

What happens when you put a SM on a bike?.........

seems pretty simple to me.

[WarpSpawn]

I'm still waiting for you to point where it says that just because they follow the rules makes them the unit type. It wouldn't have been an issue, except that Jump Packs specifically mention the unit type changing.

 

 

A bike is a unit type. It's called a bike. What more do you need?

 

It is a Space Marine Bike and, just to clarify that this is not some exotic, rule bending pseudo bike, it tells us that this "bike" follows the rules for "bikes" in the BRB.

 

Any questions?

 

Sticking squad in a Landraider does not change their unit type either. Does that mean we can have drop podding heavy support choice Landraiders?

[Brother Styphus]

Sticking squad in a Landraider does not change their unit type either. Does that mean we can have drop podding heavy support choice Landraiders?

 

You're funny. That has no relevance, but go ahead and say something random. You're still running on assumptions that taking something changes unit type, even though it does not mention unit type in its rules.

 

@SeattleDV8-Jump Packs specify a unit type change. Terminators don't do anything to unit type, just give rules changes. Bikes taken as upgrades don't change unit type, and give special rules.

[WarpSpawn]

Actually, I think you are missing the point.

 

A bike is a unit type. You say they are still infantry all you like but you have still bought a bike, which is a unit type, as defined by the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. How do you wish to insert this bike into the drop pod, as well as your command squad who are infantry?

[nighthawks]

additionally, Brother Styphus, if the bike is not a unit type, then you don't get the benefits to movement and toughness, as they are described in the bikes unit type section of the rules. so asside from looking flash, what benefit do you get?

 

this whole thread has disintegrated to absolute ridiculousness. somethign cannot be 2 unit types at once. a bike is a bike unit type, as warpspawn stated. the lack of that specific statement in the armoury changes nothing. do you use the number on the bottom of the die to determine your rolls? because the book doesn't discuss that the top is the correct side to read, either. some things are just THAT obvious.