Alpha Legion using the new marine codex.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

I know i'm not the only one thinking of doing this. I have 4,000 points worth of guys but only use 2k in any given list. I've got lots of unused "spikey" marines since i tend to stick to cult marines and chaos specific units, and i easily have enough between those and units that could appear in an army of either codex (dreads) to have a 2k chaos army and a 2k army using the loyalist codex.

 

The basis of the idea is that using loyalist rules better represents alpha legion due to Khan and his rule that gives outflank to the entire army (as opposed to having a couple squads of infiltrating chosen in a csm list.) This of course is keeping in mind that i want this list to be as fluffy and competitive as possible. If i just wanted fluff i'd just paint the pretty models and not play, and if i wanted an army to just win i'd be playing lash+plagues+oblits spam. For me this would also be a second army since i would still have my regular chaos force. I do not want to see this thread go the way of the recent ones discussing using the new loyalist dex for nightlords, so lets try to stay on topic.

 

So, with that in mind, here are the questions i would like to pose to you all:

 

1) What units do you think should be absolutely prohibited for fluff reasons and why?

 

2) How much would you include that is against fluff for the sake of being competitive? In other words, do you think its okay to counts as assault cannons and infantry carried plasma cannons as some sort of daemonic gun, etc etc.

 

3) How much would you ignore your answers for 1 due to stolen technology?

 

4) What would you counts-as Khan as both fluff and model wise, and would you take advantage of his bike and biker rules?

 

5) Would it be fluffy to have a few fallen angels tossed in with the army? I ask this simply because a fair deal of my models are fallen at this time (bikers and some chosen) and it would save me getting more models. It seems fluffy enough to me as both the fallen and alpha legion are hiding in the imperium and have their own complex agendas, but then again that isn't the greatest reason either.

[Seth the Dark]

Well I dont see a a biker mounted lord being a part of Alpha Legion. Also, I would see Alpha Legion as being an army that uses a variety of tactics, not just outflanking. But I am on the side that if you want to play a Chaos army use the Chaos Codex. I also would think if you were discussing tactics this should be in the Loyalist section of th forums.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Well I dont see a a biker mounted lord being a part of Alpha Legion. Also, I would see Alpha Legion as being an army that uses a variety of tactics, not just outflanking. But I am on the side that if you want to play a Chaos army use the Chaos Codex. I also would think if you were discussing tactics this should be in the Loyalist section of th forums.

 

Your first two sentences actually contradict each other. But i do agree that a biker lord doesn't really fit in. And while alpha legion's thing is lots of different tactics, in game rules that has been translated into infiltration and the like. And this is in the Chaos forum as it is questions about matters of fluff and of if this is even the best way to do alpha legion. No tactical discussion.

[Seth the Dark]

Well I was wondering exactly why Alpha Legion doesn't work with the Chaos codex. I know that the whole army can't Infiltrate but oh well. You still have Chosen and there are demons which are not in the SM codex.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Everything technically works with the current csm dex. The problem is that A) It would be alpha legion in paint scheme and elites choice only and :( It would be a fun list at best as chosen are not particularly good and plenty of the "good" units in the csm dex wouldn't be very fluffy to use either.

[Lord_Caerolion]

1/2) Personally, if the fluff states that something was created after the Heresy, I wouldn't take it. Land Raider Crusaders/Redeemers, assault cannon, Land Speeders, I'm not taking them for my Night Lords using the Loyalist list. Hell, I'm even not taking Scout Bikers, even though they probably did exist. Even so, those are just my own personal limitations.

3) Also, the "stolen technology" idea is a slippery slope when limiting yourself. Give it time, you'd probably end up having everything you previously limited, due to "stolen technology". It starts off ok, but then after a while you'll catch yourself thinking: "Well, I really like the 'insert Forbidden-Unit-X here', perhaps my guys will have to loot one..." It's best just to rule it out completely.

4) For the Khan, just use your own Captain/Lord. I probably wouldn't use the Bike, just to help differentiate him, but then again, I just don't like taking Characters. Not that I'm against counts-as characters, I just don't like using characters in general, and thats just me.

5) Go ahead with the Fallen.

[chillin]

1) scout bikes, assault bikes, landspeeders, anything else that doesn't have a bases in C:csm's

2) I wouldn't include anything that is against the fluff. If you say that you are using C:s/m to BETTER REPRESENT AL then take stuff that AL or any other chaos legion is not supposed to have then that better represent reason for using the C:s/m is just a lie and what you really want is shinny new stuff in the s/m dex. No it is not OK to take ass cannons , hand held plasma cannons, etc, once you start taking things that are s/m only then you are just playing s/m's and calling them AL.

3) I don't ignor any of my answers for stolen tech. Like I said, at a point you are just playing s/m, and if you want to play s/m that's fine, but just call them s/m's. AL didn't get stolen tech in 3.5 rules. Stealing tech does not give you the tech to maintain it and keep it wking (a stolen stealth bomber does you no good if your tank mechanic can't keep it in the air and your tank driver can't fly it)

4) I think Khan would make for a good AL army, as for model, just model up a chaos lord with khan's weops and equip. I don't think I would take advantage of khan bike rules A- fluff, I never remember AL using alot of bikes (not saying they never would) . B - tabletop, bike as too expensive IMO.

5) I think that taking some fallen with the AL army would be ALOT less unfluffy then taking plasma cannons etc that csm's are not supposed to have. Like you said both AL and fallen are on the run w/in the imperium, their agendas could certainly cross at some point

[Drudge Dreadnought]

1) scout bikes, assault bikes, landspeeders, anything else that doesn't have a bases in C:csm's

2) I wouldn't include anything that is against the fluff. If you say that you are using C:s/m to BETTER REPRESENT AL then take stuff that AL or any other chaos legion is not supposed to have then that better represent reason for using the C:s/m is just a lie and what you really want is shinny new stuff in the s/m dex. No it is not OK to take ass cannons , hand held plasma cannons, etc, once you start taking things that are s/m only then you are just playing s/m's and calling them AL.

3) I don't ignor any of my answers for stolen tech. Like I said, at a point you are just playing s/m, and if you want to play s/m that's fine, but just call them s/m's. AL didn't get stolen tech in 3.5 rules. Stealing tech does not give you the tech to maintain it and keep it wking (a stolen stealth bomber does you no good if your tank mechanic can't keep it in the air and your tank driver can't fly it)

4) I think Khan would make for a good AL army, as for model, just model up a chaos lord with khan's weops and equip. I don't think I would take advantage of khan bike rules A- fluff, I never remember AL using alot of bikes (not saying they never would) . B - tabletop, bike as too expensive IMO.

5) I think that taking some fallen with the AL army would be ALOT less unfluffy then taking plasma cannons etc that csm's are not supposed to have. Like you said both AL and fallen are on the run w/in the imperium, their agendas could certainly cross at some point

 

This is my thoughts on it as well, i just wanted to pose the questions without my answers so i could see what others thought.

[angels of death]

i guess they would probably have acouple of vindicators and maybe land raiders

[Rain]

If you really think about it, Alpha Legion should probably use the Loyalist codex and include asscannons etc since even the fluff in the new "chaos" codex actually talks about how alpha legion infiltrates loyalist chapters and how those chapters eventually turn and begin wearing AL colors, but I guess once they do this they throw away all of their technology because they are chaos now :lol: . Furthermore, the AL mostly exists outside the EoT and would therefore have far less access to demons anyway but far more access to various Imperial bases to steal from and Imperial Chapters to infiltrate and assimilate.

 

Besides, "real" loyalist players aren't going to be limiting themselves these weapons, so why should you? Especially since you are playing AL whose entire existence revolves around infiltrating and impersonating Imperial troops.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

If you really think about it, Alpha Legion should probably use the Loyalist codex and include asscannons etc since even the fluff in the new "chaos" codex actually talks about how alpha legion infiltrates loyalist chapters and how those chapters eventually turn and begin wearing AL colors, but I guess once they do this they throw away all of their technology because they are chaos now :lol: . Furthermore, the AL mostly exists outside the EoT and would therefore have far less access to demons anyway but far more access to various Imperial bases to steal from and Imperial Chapters to infiltrate and assimilate.

 

Besides, "real" loyalist players aren't going to be limiting themselves these weapons, so why should you? Especially since you are playing AL whose entire existence revolves around infiltrating and impersonating Imperial troops.

 

This is the counter argument, and i can't find anything wrong with it either, which is why i made this thread.

[the jeske]

Well I was wondering exactly why Alpha Legion doesn't work with the Chaos codex. I know that the whole army can't Infiltrate but oh well. You still have Chosen and there are demons which are not in the SM codex.

 

AL generally dont summon demons as they dont fight near eye of terror or durning large crusades.

In the old dex it was represented by the fact that only culitists could summon demons . Also fluff wise the AL saw demons as inferior to them [well in fact they looked like that on everything , but they had a special dislike of demons] . And yes you could build a list out of only csm , maybe some havocks [oblits arent fluffy , you need to get infected for that and its hard to do when your not in the eye ] some raptors and chosen . The problem is , that a this list is weak . Its not only inferior to the BL lists [all other "fluff" armies are] , but its weaker then the other "cult" or "legion" armies. no oblits , no DPs thats two best choices of the chaos dex gone , not cult units . etc etc

 

+ the list has nothing different from a "chapter fell to chaos yestarday" list . What kind of a sucks .

Stealing tech does not give you the tech to maintain it and keep it working

well the AL fluff is that they cover up as loyalist chapters and get resupplied by imperial forge worlds . pluse their bases have weapon forges of high standart all across the imperium since the pre heresy time . and they were the legion with the most "new" stuff being the last legion created [and the only one created twice].

[Lay]

Outflank may be representative, but ATSKNF will only fit the Fallen in your army.

Apart from that and the level of competitiveness, both the CSM Codex and the SM Codex are rather weak in representing the Legion.

 

the fluff in the new "chaos" codex actually talks about how alpha legion infiltrates loyalist chapters and how those chapters eventually turn and begin wearing AL colors

Only the remnants of one chapter so far.

[chillin]

If you really think about it, Alpha Legion should probably use the Loyalist codex and include asscannons etc since even the fluff in the new "chaos" codex actually talks about how alpha legion infiltrates loyalist chapters and how those chapters eventually turn and begin wearing AL colors, but I guess once they do this they throw away all of their technology because they are chaos now :huh: .

Besides, "real" loyalist players aren't going to be limiting themselves these weapons, so why should you?

 

When it comes down to it, chaos is either different that loyalist s/m or they are exactly the same. If they are exactly the same I really don't see the point in calling them chaos.

[Rain]

The name of the army list is semantics, all I am saying is that in my opinion Alpha Legion as described in all fluff that I am aware of is better represented by the loyalist rules even though they are traitors. Yes, there is a dichotomy between rules and fluff, but that's the whole reason GW endorses "counts as". Maybe that makes them "not Chaos" but as far as I can tell, the main distinction is ideology anyway and how do you model or rule wise represent ideology?

[tangomegadeath]

The thing to bear in mind with using 'counts as' is that GW basically make rules for models, then pin fluff around them.

 

Take the Chapter Master's Orbital Bombardment as an example.

 

The rationalisation for an unlimited range St 10 Ap 1 Ordnance weapon is that the Chapter master 'calls down a bombardment from a strike cruiser'.

Now how accurate is that likely to be...2d6 scatter? More??

My point is that they decided to give the Chapter Master the rule and then decided the fluff to justify it.

 

With that in mind let's say we want to represent a half decent Word Bearer force.

I'll use a Chapter Master for the Dark Apostle, using the Relic Blade as his cursed crozius.

His defiled rozarius is going to replace the iron halo and ATSKNF will represent his unshakable belief in the Gods of Chaos.

My fluff justification for the Orbital Bombardment used by my Dark Apostle is that he forfeits his movement for a turn praying to the Dark Gods for a miracle etc, which they provide as a St10 Ap1 temporary warp rift using an ordnance blast. As they are Gods they (clearly) have an unlimited range.

Prayer complete he can then assualt just like a Chapter Master.

 

With the above example I have done exactly the same as GW and fully justified my use of an entry in the codex. -_-

Is it perfect? No. Is it better than C:CSM? Almost definately.

 

We (as players) have to come up with ideas like this. AdMech are an excellent example of this.

 

Saying that using C:SM is wrong for representing the Traitor Legions is basically the same as saying using C:Witch Hunters or Guard to represent AdMech is wrong also.

You could argue that AdMech have no existing codex and so have to use other rules but arguably the Traitor Legions have no codex either.

I'm sure that most would agree that C:CSM represents renegades well and Legions not at all.

This is not a question of army power (for most players) but one of fluff.

 

Using C:Guard/Hunters for AdMech allows you to represent your force on the field of battle.

Using C:SM allows you to represent the Legions in the same way (with a little restraint).

 

If AdMech players are lauded for their use of a little seen army and the way in which they have used the rules to represent them, why are 'pure' Traitor Legions derided for doing the same thing?

 

I'd love to hear further thoughts on this

 

MEGAdeath.

 

**Edit**

Would those against it feel better about facing a 'counts as' army if your opponent had a codex with the same options, but Traitor fluff/justifications (as in the example above)?

[the jeske]

well I am going here with the tournament view on this the difference between the Ad mech and the Traitor Legions is .. first the the AD never had a codex of their own[save for those rules for electro priests , if I remember well] they were never supported as an army etc .

The Legions had a codex and techniclly they still have . while PM and zerkers or maybe even NM can be argued if they are legion only , the 1ksons are 1ksons only there is no other chapter/legion runing around that has members like them .

 

The thing to bear in mind with using 'counts as' is that GW basically make rules for models, then pin fluff around them

what in makes no sense . Its as if they were saying here this is the rules and official fluff and 20 years of 40k , but you know you can play it how ever you like it . Whats next using non GW models ?

[Jarulek]

With that in mind let's say we want to represent a half decent Word Bearer force.

I'll use a Chapter Master for the Dark Apostle, using the Relic Blade as his cursed crozius.

His defiled rozarius is going to replace the iron halo and ATSKNF will represent his unshakable belief in the Gods of Chaos.

My fluff justification for the Orbital Bombardment used by my Dark Apostle is that he forfeits his movement for a turn praying to the Dark Gods for a miracle etc, which they provide as a St10 Ap1 temporary warp rift using an ordnance blast. As they are Gods they (clearly) have an unlimited range.

Prayer complete he can then assualt just like a Chapter Master.

 

With the above example I have done exactly the same as GW and fully justified my use of an entry in the codex. :D

Is it perfect? No. Is it better than C:CSM? Almost definately.

 

I'd love to hear further thoughts on this

 

OR! You could just use a chaplain, since that's what they are. :huh:

Either way, the massive use of daemons and cultists aren't representable. You almost made it to the top of the list of most ridiculous count-as after Lash of Submission representing the demagogue ability and a Tzeentch daemonweapon representing a "experimental plasma pistol". Just admit you are a power gamer and stop this charade.

[tangomegadeath]

The Legions had a codex and techniclly they still have.

That is highly debatable - lets not get too deep on it with this thread though.

 

while PM and zerkers or maybe even NM can be argued if they are legion only , the 1ksons are 1ksons only there is no other chapter/legion runing around that has members like them.

I agree with you about the cult legions C:SM does not work with them as you can't represent that which makes them, erm, them.

Unfortunately, you can't use C:CSM either.

Undivided legions can and do work though. They don't have to include certain units to be representative of the legion (ie Rubrics).

 

what in makes no sense . Its as if they were saying here this is the rules and official fluff and 20 years of 40k , but you know you can play it how ever you like it . Whats next using non GW models ?

You've disproven your own arguement here.

C:CSM completely ignores the fluff for legions. GW have, in effect, removed 20 (10,000?) years of legion history by not allowing you to create a true army for them.

 

Non Rubric Terms? - no, I've not heard of them.

1ksons possessed? No again.

Alpha Legion defilers?

Alpha Legion Oblits???

Do I need to go on?

 

As for using non GW models, everytime you use a Dark Apostle you are using a model which has no GW rules.

In essence, it may as well be a non GW model, yes?

 

OR! You could just use a chaplain, since that's what they are. ;)

I don't know what background material you read but I assure you they are not.

 

Either way, the massive use of daemons and cultists aren't representable.

Not every battle the WB fight will have daemons, the same as not every SM force will have, say, landspeeders.

 

Just admit you are a power gamer and stop this charade.

The sad thing is I'm really not.

In fact I find your assumption quite annoying.

You don't know me I don't know you.

That's why I've chosen not to assume you a 15 YO retard.

No offence is intended, but this highlights where assumptions get us.

(Really, no offence was intended).

 

I simply want representative, playable armies for the legions I love.

Why is this so wrong?

 

Until a decent list comes out the only option I see is using C:SM as I have done since C:CSM was released.

 

(Just to assure you that no offence was intended above).

 

Cheers

 

MEGAdeath.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

You guys do realize that accusing sombody of being a power gamer because they want to use the marine dex instead of the chaos dex is completely ridiculous seeing as the chaos dex is one of the best dexes out at the moment? Sure the new marine dex is not lacking in power either, but after plenty of games against it its a fair match. Even if the person playing a chaos legion with the loyalist dex broke all fluff and used all the toys chaos shouldn't have, it'd still be a fair match just like fighting a loyalist army that uses land raider crusaders, plasma cannons, etc is a fair match.

 

The only place any change in power comes is when using weaker units from the chaos dex (possessed, non-cult troops, predators, etc) for fluff reasons. I'll use the example of word bearers as it has been brought up in this thread. In a fluffy chaos dex list you are using a non-optimal HQ, possessed, vanilla marines, lesser daemons, etc. Its not weak, but its not going to be as strong as DP, plague marine, oblit spam. And by the same token if you use the new dex you are using regular marine units but without the plasma cannons, multi meltas, landraider varients, etc. You probably lose considerably more power from using the loyalist codex simply because you lose uber grit and don't have a good deal of their special stuff that makes up for that.

[Jarulek]

@ tangomegadeath

 

None taken. I'm not a 15 YO and I don't think I'm retarded-like, I never said you were either. The reason behind my frustrated reply has the same motive as your reasoning: I want to field a force consistant with the fluff. Like I said in another thread, playing chaos with a marine dex in your hand just doesn't feel the same. It doesn't for me at least. So I make a list with the current codex representing my legion the best it can, and also hoping that someday something better comes along. But judging by the most recent codices, even WHFB codices, I don't have much hope tho.

[tangomegadeath]

@ tangomegadeath

 

None taken. I'm not a 15 YO and I don't think I'm retarded-like, I never said you were either.

Like I said in another thread, playing chaos with a marine dex in your hand just doesn't feel the same. It doesn't for me at least.

 

Whilst I was refering to the powergamer comment I'm so glad you are not offended, I reread the post and considered removing the 15YO bit but it would have undermined my thread a little had I done so (hence the repeated disclaimers...!!!).

 

Fair point, I hadn't considered "that nagging feeling" when using a different dex.

This may make me re-evaluate my thoughts on using a substitute.

How do others fair with this I wonder?

Oh, and how about AdMech? Is it different for a force with no dex do you think?

 

The really great thing about this sort of thread though is the agreement between players (often with conflicting opinions) that the fluff should be adhered to.

In a world of Falcon/Oblit/whatever spam, this sort of dedication is to be admired.

 

Sirs, I take my hat off to you.

 

MEGAdeath.

[Seth the Dark]

I would say armies with no codex are justified in using a substitute codex since it shows ingenuity on the part of the gamer. I would have no qualms with those type of players since they might have loads of models but no rules to play them.

 

I would have less of a problem with Chaos players using the Loyalist codex if they were using the codex before this new one came out.

[the jeske]

You guys do realize that accusing sombody of being a power gamer because they want to use the marine dex instead of the chaos dex is completely ridiculous seeing as the chaos dex is one of the best dexes out at the moment

if you play BL . yes . Try to make a fluff true AL or WB list .

[Primarch Naogedd]

Fluff? Did I just hear fluff?

 

Who are you, and what have you done with the jeske!? (j/k)

 

In reference to the Tzeentch-Daemon-weapon-as-crozius-and-plasma-pistol-thing earlier on, I actually thought that was one of the best suggestions I'd heard about the new C:CSM. 4+ invulnerable for the rosarius, daemon weapon for the crozius, and daemonically-possessed plasma/bolt pistol for the shooting aspect.