Wolf Guard MotW

[Wolf89]

I still think your logic is wrong lars, I really do.

 

The part that you're referring to I assume is "they can either be assigned as a bodyguard for a character or they can be used as leaders for Space Wolves packs." if this is the case keep reading below.

 

"Space Wolf Packs: ... Even when a pack is reduced to one or two members it will not be disbanded..."

 

I see this as the pack can effectively be a single model. Meaning the WGPL can be alone, and cohere to the MotW rules.

 

Not sure if I'm right, but your argument does seem plausible and 5 point cheaper MotW model does sound nice.

 

-edit-

 

The more I think about this the more I wonder, because I don't want to be right the more I think about it, because then WGPL's running around does seem really, dare I say, overpowered?

 

The above quote about the pack being reduced to one or two members and not being disbanded is found on the last page under chapter organization. The next line says that if the pack is reduced to one or two models it won't disband, but instead will be asked to act as leaders for Blood Claw packs. This then explains why they'd put a "may" under the special rules for WGPL's "one Wolf Guard model may be attached..." (bolded by me for simplicity).

 

I don't know what to think here, someone correct me in this, I have a feeling it's there somewhere, but I can't find it and this troubles me.

[WolfLordLars]

This is (again) the first time I have heard of something being done. Never before have I heard of anyone thinking Wolf Guards can be taken by themselves.

 

You either take them as bodyguards, where you have to take so many of them (at reduced cost) or a single one as a pack leader assigned to a pack (Scout, GH, BC, or Long Fang). Those are your two options. They are not IC's. When a Wolf Guard Pack leader looses all of his pack, he is still a part of that pack (cant go join another). He, more or less, fills in the role of a Vet Sgt from other Space Marine armies. They are a Sgt with terminator honors (thus, access to the armory) from previous editions.

 

Wolf Guard bodyguards fill in the role of the veteran squads that accompany IC's in SM armies.

 

 

Anyway... both types of Wolf Guards have dedicated roles. One goes with IC's, another with packs. Either way, that is what they do. That, and that alone.

 

If you give one a Mark of the Wulfen, as soon as the game starts, they are on their own. They break off from whatever duty they might of had, and go about their business (which is killing everything in sight). If they are pack leaders, as soon as the pack deploys, their pack leader breaks off and is separate. If they are bodyguards, they break off from the rest and their IC and do the same. Either way, they break off from whatever role they have, and are now an IC of their own.

 

The reason that the Bodyguard is cheaper, is because you HAVE to purchase at least 4 (one of which can be the MotW), thus they are all cheaper. If you only have to buy one (to make a MotW WG) you have to spend 5 more points to buy it. If you are already buying bodyguards, just buy one more and send him off.

 

 

Thats how I play it, thats how I thought everyone played it.

[Grey Mage]

That makes sense. I saw the entry that says "May" be attached to a pack... however I think this is merely a case of diction.

 

See the rule is : "At the start of a battle one Wolf Gaurd model may be attached to each Space Wolves pack as a leader for the pack."

 

Now to simplify. Wolf is an adjective for gaurd. IE what kind of gaurd? Wolf Gaurd. Just like what kind of pack? Space Wolf pack.

 

"At the start of a battle" is when it can happen. "Wolf Gaurd model" is what it can happen to. the action wich is "be attached to each space wolves pack". "as a leader for the pack" signifies what it does once attached. "may" signifies that a pack does not have to take this option, and "one" signifies the number of these options that can be taken per pack.

 

The main source of confusion is that "Space Wolves pack" is in fact the primary noun, not "Wolf Gaurd model".

 

See its all so very simple!

[Wolf89]

That makes sense. I saw the entry that says "May" be attached to a pack... however I think this is merely a case of diction.

 

See the rule is : "At the start of a battle one Wolf Gaurd model may be attached to each Space Wolves pack as a leader for the pack."

 

Now to simplify. Wolf is an adjective for gaurd. IE what kind of gaurd? Wolf Gaurd. Just like what kind of pack? Space Wolf pack.

 

"At the start of a battle" is when it can happen. "Wolf Gaurd model" is what it can happen to. the action wich is "be attached to each space wolves pack". "as a leader for the pack" signifies what it does once attached. "may" signifies that a pack does not have to take this option, and "one" signifies the number of these options that can be taken per pack.

 

The main source of confusion is that "Space Wolves pack" is in fact the primary noun, not "Wolf Gaurd model".

 

See its all so very simple!

 

English is my 3rd language and you just made me cry. :(

 

After reading the German codex I think I understand what both of you are saying... good thing I never played this way, but maybe I should have just once, so I could be corrected right away.

 

Sorry if I made the ultimate of ultimate silly questions reply, it was an honest mistake I swear! ;)

[OnlyInDeath]

The problem here is that people are being too paranoid as to what is SAID vs what is NOT SAID when it comes to GW writings nowadays, and I think this is due to the recent release of the 5th ed rule book where, lets face it, you have to be fairly aware of such linguistics. Ie, in dawn of war where up to 2 troops and 1 HQ may deploy in the first turn. Took me like 5 read throughs and a couple of games to realize it's MAY deploy, not MUST deploy. Now, that being said, it seems like a lot of the posts lately are nitpicking words and making people get all worked up about the rules. This particular case is rather simple.

 

1. Under the wolf guard section, up at the top, you are given the TWO (and only two) options of how a wolf guard may be deployed. "Wolf guard can be used in two ways: they can either be assigned asa a bodyguard for a character or they can be used as leaders for space wolves packs". Nothing in here about them running around as IC's. No mention of them being able to be an IC in any way shape or form. Think of them as a unit upgrade as either vet sgts or bodyguard (IC unit upgrade essentially).

 

2. Under the special rules for Wolf Guard Leaders: "at the start of a battle, one Wolf Guard model may be attached to each space wolves pack as a leader for the pack. A wolf guard leader is a member of the his pack and cannot leave it during the game". It seems the big semantic battle is over these two lines right here, and again it hinges over that little "may". I think what Grey Mage was trying to get across (and like Wolf89 reading that made my head hurt) is that the rule is not saying that the WGPL may join the squad if it wishes, but rather that the squad may be played with an attached wolf guard leader. It's saying you arent forced to play with WGPL, but you may if you wish, and if you DO wish, they are members of the pack in the same way as a vet sgt.

 

As fun as it would be to have essentially 20 IC's running around (and for those of you screaming cheese in your heads, remember that in an Apoc game, I could do this all I want :) )sounds, and it really would be funny, I have to agree with Lars here and say that he's playing them right and has been all along.

 

Now, that being said, people gotta lighten up about all this rules banter!

[Wolf89]

So I was reading my codex again, and it said I may include logan grimnar in my army if it's 2000 points or more. So can I take a daemon prince? :)

 

I see exactly what is being said now, OID you really cleared up for me since half the words grey mage posted I'm still working on... lets just say I'm done with my schooling for English and glad. This is why I'm in study for an engineer, we talk in numbers, not proper sentences and all that stuff. :tu:

 

Sorry I totally messed this one up, it's quite an eye opener for me to field MotW as a WGBG model... so here's an interesting question if you do take a WGBG, and say you take 7 WGBG (that's 3 heavy weapons) then take one away for MotW, you still keep those 3 heavy weapons for the rest of the squad correct? even though it's essentially 6 WGBG now?

 

Am I being silly now?

[WolfLordLars]

You CAN do that, and I admit that I have before.. but you shouldnt, if that makes sense.

 

3rd language, eh? I am having a rough time with my 2nd (unless you count programming languages). Dont worry though, while I followed what GM was saying, it made my head hurt too. Reads like most legal documents I have seen.. ugh...

[Wolf89]

You CAN do that, and I admit that I have before.. but you shouldnt, if that makes sense.

 

3rd language, eh? I am having a rough time with my 2nd (unless you count programming languages). Dont worry though, while I followed what GM was saying, it made my head hurt too. Reads like most legal documents I have seen.. ugh...

 

Well if you count programming languages then it's like 7 or 8 :)

 

It's a lot easier to learn when you're younger, around the ages of 5-12 and that's where I learned and it sticks with you easier and it's easier to soak up.

 

Now we're just straying off topic Omar so be careful :P

 

It's good to know that I CAN have 3 heavy weapons with the 7th WGBG having MotW, but I understand why you'd say I shouldn't. Not much use for that many WGBG anyways since a drop pod can only hold 6 and that's 5 WGBG and the IC so there's no way around it. Now if the pod could hold 7 so you'd have 6 WGBG that might be REALLY interesting... -_- cough* 4 assault cannons, cough* cough*

[WolfLordLars]

Thats another interesting one as well, MotW with a DP pack. It was my understanding that you deployed the MotW with the unit he was attached to, and at the start of the game they break off. Of course, I cant find that in writing anywhere.

[Wolf89]

I just assumed he couldn't be in the pod at the same time, since MotW says treated as an IC and cannot join another unit at any time. But if you took it from the WGBG it is his unit he didn't join it, but I dunno it seems like we're stretching something the wrong way here.

[Grey Mage]

wWhat your probly thinking about is the part where it says that if you attach a WGPL to a pack it becomes a member of that pack for all purposes, including VP, KP, Half-strength.... and therefore deployment. Thats why we didnt have to worry like alot of armies did when they had those silly missions that everything was reserves... and if the IC didnt happen to roll up on the same turn he couldnt deploy with the squad as intended... or the nondedicated transport.

 

He is a WG.... so if hes a WGPL hes always a part of the squad, but as he has MOTW he cant ever be a part of that squad... avoiding twinkery... Id say play it by ear. If you deploy him via drop pod he never actually "joins" the squad, he just deploys from deepstrike, having been part of them before the game... then during the game he must go it alone... and runs off on his own. Im taking this as the meaning of "a WG" counts as the same selection as the squad hes assigned to.... otherwise it would mean we didnt pay an elites slot for them.

 

The twinkery would be saying that since hes part of their "slot" he still counts as part of them for victory points, half strength, et all.... Id not feel comfortable stating such though. *shudder*.

[WolfLordLars]

The way I usually worked my MotW model was, either as a BG or PL, he would deploy with the squad he was attached to.

 

If they deploy at the beginning of the game, he is with them, and then runs off on his own. If they deploy later, due to reserves, he came out when they did.

 

Once, I was told that he counted an an elite IC, and was on his own from the start.. he was a single deployment on his own (back in the day when we did 1 for 1).

 

This just leaves room for all sorts of cheese. I would like to think that if he was a pack leader, and that pack drops in a pod, he would be with them until they climb out of the pod. BUT, if that was the case, what if he was with the OBEL scouts? Would he also come in with them?

 

So... do we treat him as an IC prior to deployment, or as soon as the game starts?

[Grey Mage]

Well the other way to go is to say hes never a part of a unit... hes merely pickekd from the list of available wolfgaurd and dropped into the battle. MotW does say he can never join a unit, he can just be near it. That could mean hes just always his own unit, before, during, and after deployment. *Spreads hands*.

 

But with the FAQ saying they are always a part of the FOC slot their unit takes up.... ?

 

Ill just run them as starting with a pack, and disengaging from there. If they have a transport, well he can be in it at the start... if they are in a drop pod, hell exit when they come in, never having spent a turn with them. OBEL... I wont use it with him.... dont like the taste.

[WG Vrox]

I always considered him an IC from the start, an elite IC much like the Iron Priest, but could never rejoin his unit.

 

I read some fluff somewhere and the receiving of the Mark was a ceremony that happened pre-deployment. Following the PLs and BGs briefing on tactics, they gathered for a ceremony of combat rites and rituals. Due to a genetic instability, it was possible for a WG to become so overcome with the lust of battle he would fall into a form of "bloodlust". Wolf Priests would immediately recognize this bloodlust and take him away where he would undergo the MotW ceremony. The WG that had the mark would never make it back to his squad and they would deploy without him.

 

that summarized what I read on the fluff, but from reading it, it never occurred to me that the WG with the mark could be deployed with his unit then separate on the battlefield. just one brothers humble opinion.

[OnlyInDeath]

I read some fluff somewhere and the receiving of the Mark was a ceremony that happened pre-deployment. Following the PLs and BGs briefing on tactics, they gathered for a ceremony of combat rites and rituals. Due to a genetic instability, it was possible for a WG to become so overcome with the lust of battle he would fall into a form of "bloodlust". Wolf Priests would immediately recognize this bloodlust and take him away where he would undergo the MotW ceremony. The WG that had the mark would never make it back to his squad and they would deploy without him.

 

Yeah, that's the Black Rage... ^_^

[charlottan]

First post on the forum, so please forgive me if i am wrong.

 

But a model with MotW must remain on his own AT ALL TIMES. So as I read it he can not start the battle with a unit and leave the unit, so he can not deploy by DP.

and he must be a leader.

 

As to taking a transport is a transport a unit if it is he can be near that unit but can not join it.

 

My reading of the rules is that he must be taken on foot as an independant charicter who can never join another unit.

[Dark Bjoern]

Welcome to the Fang, Brother. Have an ale and enjoy your stay.

[WolfLordLars]

The question with MotW comes from being told by tournament organizers, years ago, that wargear doesnt take effect until the start of the game.. which didnt make any sense for me.

 

I am going to go with the idea that as soon as the MotW is taken he is an IC, and deployed as an elite IC. If the pack he was a part of is deployed via drop pod, they still are, he arrives on foot, in the deployment zone, at the beginning of the game.

 

That sound about right?

[charlottan]

Lars

 

space wolves wargear MotW, states

1. Independant Character

2. Must remain on his own all the time

 

Special Rules Drop pods

1. to youse a DP you have to be in Power/Terminator Armour a scout or a dread

2. no other models may be yoused.

 

So the only way to get him on the table, is to get him a drop pod. Seing as he has power armour he is eligable. If it is dedicated to him you could proberbly argue that he has not joined another unit.

 

and as for wargear not taking effect until the start of the battle. MotW is in a unit what happens if your opponant wins first turn.

 

If he could deploy on his own at the beggining of the battle, He would last how long, he would be the only friendly moddle on the table.

[WolfLordLars]

There are folks who would argue about him being in a DP, and I am one of them. I dont think he can take a DP on his own.

 

If you took a DP only force, yes... he wouldnt last long. But, if not, your fine. Just dont take MotW if your army is all in DP's.

[Wolf89]

Just dont take MotW if your army is all in DP's.

 

We never really used MotW regularly, it was (at least for me) one of those luxuries that I rarely fielded until I got my fill in the 13th company and got all the MotW I wanted. :teehee:

[Grey Mage]

Well how about this one... it says you can take transports, including drop pods by the Faq, for an IC and his WGBG.... so what if you take him as MoTW, with a drop pod, as a WGBG?