Mat Ward interview Oct WD

[Thylacine]

Did anyone read the Mat Ward interview in this months WD?

 

It is a sales pitch for the new Space Marine Codex but there are a couple of things that differ from the standard blurb of the past, that may change the future for SW players.

 

"The most lasting and contentious decree was that the existing Space Marine Legions would be split apart and reformed into smaller organisations known as Chapters. Though many of his brother Primarchs initially railed against Guilliman's decree, all eventually accepted it - even the strong-headed Leman Russ." Since when? It has always been a long held belief that the SW's are more like a legion than a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes, the SW's never split the chapter into sub chapters and the storyline we follow is that the 12 Great Companies are independent of each other. "Each Great Company has its own headquarters and territory within the Space Wolves' massive Chapter-fortress and its own spacecraft, weapons, forges and other facilities. In almost all respects, it is a separate, self-sufficient body of warriors."

 

In any regiment, there are battalions which have companies but the companies all share the common resources of the battalion, anything different and you have an independent company which is the nucleus of a battalion, should another battalion need to be formed, in time of war.

 

The interview goes on to say that "the vast majority of Space Marines honour Guilliman as their Primarch." This is a step away from the cannon of the past and I am not too sure that I like where this is going. The Space Wolves are not the lap-dogs of the Ultramarines, Adeptus Astartes or the Inquisition. The Space Wolves don't have a habit of calling on the Ultramarines to come and help them out of a bind as the article states. "fellow Chapters constantly call upon their expertise in warfare. In battle they are eminently proficient and highly flexible, guided by Guilliman's tenets of battle-craft to this day."

 

So each time Logan Grimnar wants to take the lads out for a bit of live firing, perhaps a bug hunt, he has to ring Ultramarine HQ and have their OK first! I think not!

 

I see a bit of spin-doctoring coming our way, reading between the lines I see a generic 'Others codex' a bit like the new DP the same for each chapter, just change the icons. I think Mat Ward should go and read all the OOP codices and rule books, before he starts tinkering with the game, a generic SM list is not what the players want and would see sales drop.

 

Thylacine

[Commissar Molotov]

Page 24 of the new Codex:

 

[Other Chapters] such as the Space Wolves and Black Templars, remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own founder's way of war and caring little of how they fare in the eyes of others.

 

So I wouldn't worry too much.

 

The interview goes on to say that "the vast majority of Space Marines honour Guilliman as their Primarch." This is a step away from the cannon of the past...

 

Well, given that the majority of Chapters are drawn from Guilliman's gene-seed, I don't think that's an exaggeration. The trouble comes from some of Matt Ward's assertions (that Chapters such as the Iron Hands would look to Marneus Calgar as their 'spiritual liege lord'.)

 

Regardless, the Space Wolves are as headstrong and different as ever.

[Vassakov]

I would say this is a false alarm. As far as the whole "all the Legions agreed to split into chapters thing" - we did. The fact that the Wolf Brothers were an unmitigated failure is besides the point... We do not follow Codex organisation though - never have, never will.

 

Also, from the UK WD in July (5th Ed blurb), from Rick Priestley:

 

Yes, I think it's about time the Dark Eldar and Space Wolves and a few others had their time in the spotlight again.

 

In other news, the WarSeer rumour Mill is currently implieing a WD Codex/FAQ thing for SW's in the next 2/3 months, with a full scale Codex in late 2009... though I will be adding a healthly does of NaCl to that.

[muzzyman1981]

If you look at your own writing it never says ALL, on majorities and mosts. The Space Wolves have always remained on the fringe of following the Codex.

 

As for the Wolves being more of a Legion than a Chapter I would have to disagree as I would imagine after Horus' little show the blessed Russ would understand the need of lowering the amounts of troops in a Chapter, even if he didn't follow the law and the letter of the Codex Astartes he would have dropped the numbers to about 1000 men in the Chapter (if he were still around), I believe this would have been done mainly through not recruiting as many men to replace losses since the Space Wolves only had 1 successor Chapter (which failed) to split into whereas the Ultramarines split their Legion into all the different successor Chapters to drop the numbers accordingly.

 

Remember though, for the most part the majority of the Space Marine Chapters do look at the Ultramarines to be the main Chapter if not their direct "parents". Is the "right"? Doesn't matter, the Space Wolves will always do what is right for themselves and the Imperium.

 

As for an "Other Space Marine Codex" to cover all the other main Chapters (SW, BT, BA, DA, etc) I doubt it UNLESS it was as thick or thicker than the main SM Codex as the rules are significantly different from Codex SM Chapter rules, as well as the fluff they put into the Codex. They probibly won't even do that as they would rather people bought more Codex(s) (I don't know the plural of Codex =P) rather than one big one.

[Thylacine]

Re, "Page 24 of the new Codex:"

 

I am still waiting for my codex to come in the post.

 

Two more sleeps till I get to see what I can and can't do with the troops.

[Hrolf the Cunning]

I think the most worrying thing about that bloody article/interview is "The ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes really!"

 

What sort of tool dip :) would say something like that... its so crap... and to think that they gave the writing of the first codex of the new edition to him... oh dear, this does not bode well in terms of fluff for the future.

[muzzyman1981]

Well if you wanted to find someone to write more fluff and whatnot for the Space Marine Codex (which focuses primarily on the Ultramarines) would you want someone who absolutely LOVED them?

 

If he is the guy who will write ours then I will start worrying, but this is a guy who likes Ultramarines so of course he is going to play up their role in things.

 

Remember we are Wolves, we will always be on the fringe of the Astartes, heck out of the 9 loyalist Legions only one other has less successor Chapters than we do, and we are all but tied for that as ours failed (I know not exactly something to be proud of but I'm just making a point =P). We like the way the Wolves run things and woe betide the person who wants to change it.

[Thylacine]

"he would have dropped the numbers to about 1000 men in the Chapter (if he were still around), I believe this would have been done mainly through not recruiting as many men to replace losses"

 

OK 1000 Space Wolves divided by 12 Great Companies is 83.3 men per company, thats a tad on the small side to go and fight a war, even for Space Marines.

 

A unit that small just does not make sense, it is too small to be of any use and too small to do the things they are supposed to do. Cooks can stand guard, Bandsmen can carry the wounded but only the Infantryman goes out and fights.

[muzzyman1981]

They don't adhere to it to the point.....I'm sure there are above 1000 Space Wolves I would even be tempted to say 1500 Space Wolves total but they are still MUCH MUCH smaller than a Legion.

 

Second cooks and bondsmen are not counted towards the "1000 men" in a Space Marine Chapter. As for the 83.3 men per company if you go by the exact 1000 men in the Chapter 83 Space Wolves are plenty for most any mission if you count the fact 1 Space Marine is about equal to anywhere from 10 normal men to 50 normal men.

 

The main point is that Space Wolves are not a Codex Chapter so they don't adhere to the Codex Astartes as I've said BUT Leman Russ was smart enough to understand the need to drop the numbers of Space Marines from 100,000 men Legions to 1000 men Chapters.

[Spacefrisian]

I thought it was already estabilished that each company has roughly around 300 marines maxed, Logan has problably even smaller as his is made of the elites and other fancy stuff.

[muzzyman1981]

Even so that is still much smaller than a Legion (100,000 SMs > 3600 SW) The fact still remains the Space Wolves realize the need to keep Chapters smaller than pre-heresy numbers.

 

In any case all this is just a small bit of wether or not GW is gonna "give the shaft" to the rest of the non-Codex Chapters. I still believe that they wont.

[Olmstedtr]

actually if lexicanum is to be believed theres about 1440 space wolves in the fang that are loyal to the great wolf.

 

now this number equals about 120 for every great company; mind you this does not include extra pack members or additional blood claws as such.

 

however if the above numbers are correct then 3600+ unknown number of space wolves companies doing their own thing could equal legion proportions. im sure if one company decided to go off another one would be formed.

 

also do not forget that there are many companies out there not loyal to the great wolf that help out as well.

 

that and the hundreds of thousands of bondsmen who help the space wolves

[The God Emperor]

Heck, my GC has 500 men. Well I'm aiming for that 500 men but I've got a full Codex Astartes regulated sized company ready to shoot your faces in and spit on it after their done. Oh and grind your skulls beneath our boots too, I'm just that cruel/ruthless.

 

I hope I'm not breaking any rules since my Wolves are special and they're out there crusading in the name of Russ and the Space Wolves. Not exactly Lost Company but you know, been out there for 600 years killing and spitting on corpses and only made 12 returns to the Fang to be supplied. That's basically the fluff for my GC with Khemri Brown shoulder pads.

 

Wait, is that even feasible? Crusading like Black Templars while taking trophies and helping Imperial citizens while blindingly bash and spitting on Xenos corpse? Rune Priests? What does your rune scripts say on this?

[muzzyman1981]

When I said 3600 that is for the Space Wolves Chapter....not 3600 per Great Company. As I've said before, that is still MUCH MUCH smaller than 100,000 SM Space Marine Legions. Although I don't agree with the 3600 for the whole Chapter unless maybe you are counting the aspirants as well (although I'm not sure that would up the count by all that much) I still wouldn't say over 2000 for the whole Chapter. Leman Russ may not have agreed with the "standard" doctrines but after the Heresy he would have recognized the need to split up the Legions so that as has been said, "No one man can control the awesome power of a Space Marine Legion."

[WolfScout]

If he is the guy who will write ours then I will start worrying, but this is a guy who likes Ultramarines so of course he is going to play up their role in things.

 

Rick isn't writing ours. Phil Kelly is. He said so himself at the product brief at Games Day LA. He also said it's "on the horizon" and that he is currrently writing it, so I wouldn't expect to see a new codex for about a year.

 

To be honest, I'd be happy with a White Dwarf update (temporarily) and an upgrade pack similar to the BT's and DA's at this point.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Keep in mind, that Russ did agree to split his legion. That is when the ill fated Wolf Brothers were created. I have assumed that Russ, in gloriously stubbon fashion befitting SW's, knew that the WB's would not succeed. ;)

 

So yes, he did "agree" to split the legion.

[OnlyInDeath]

Another thing to keep in mind is that the SW were originally one of the smallest of the Legions out there. Even in full swing, we believed in quality over quantity, much unlike our smurf brothers.

 

Also, we did kinda up and lose an entire great company before the decree by Guilliman to shrink down the chapters, so presumably the 13th company would be a rather sizable force, which, when Russ returns, would greatly bolster the numbers of wolves.

 

Either way, the wolves are small due to recruiting only from Fenrisian tribes, but again, what we lack in numbers, we make up for in sheer martial prowess.

[Olmstedtr]

and drinking! i however dont think russ would see the need to keep his legion shattered. he only did it to prevent a civil war not because rowboat said so.

 

if anything were greater then black templar numbers or at least equal to.

 

and yes god emperor thats pretty much what they do.

[WolfLordLars]

I always looked on each great company as being a 'mini-chapter' of their own, and thought the Wolves were about to their Legion size. Afterall, being as spread out as they are, and as secretive as they are, who on terra (or elsewhere) is to know if they DO still have their pre-heresy numbers. Might also be why they dont organize like traditional chapters.

 

Take a look at the map (p30) of the new C:SM. Just below Terra is a planet called "BLOODFALL" which is the homeworld of the "Red Wolves". Their chapter symbol is the same as the Space Wolves. Are we to have a splinter-chapter again?

[Bran Scalphunter]

Nay Lars, I believe that would be one of our Companies that got separated from the main Chapter and took up base on Bloodfall.

[WolfLordLars]

Do you have any fluff to back that up? Just a reference about them?

[Thylacine]

Back on topic.

 

Did anyone read the Mat Ward interview in this months WD?

 

Thylacine

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

the lacking of evidence is not the evidence of lacking

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

this is my take on what occured in the Space WOlf Legion after the Codex Astartes was adopted (read FORCED) upon the Space Marine Legions.

 

Leman Russ was no fool. he could see that keeping his Legion at official strength would led to a war he couldnt win, so started the process of dividing his legion into smaller chapters while Guilliman was watching him. Russ took Wolves that were no longer fir for active duty due to genetic instability and made them into the Wolf brothers. Russ took his sweet time doing this, and Guilliman, being busy running the armed forces of the Imperium, figured Russ could continue the task on his own. Once Russ was able to run his Wolves again without interference, he stopped breaking his legion down and went to the business of cracking traitor skulls. The Wolves, being the awesome killing machines that we are, fought in more engagements that resulted in massive causalties, more than our selective recruitment could replenish. so over the last 10,000 years we have dwindled down from our former Legion strength to what appears to be a Codex strength.

I see each great company being around 300 Wolves strong, meaning we number somewhere around 3600 Wolves.

 

this is my 2 cents.

 

Wolf Lord Kieran

[WolfLordLars]

I was under the impression that each Great Company was in the area of 500 strong, if you include tank crews (grey hunters), thunderhawk crews (also grey hunters or long fangs), and the variety of other duties they might be tasked with.

 

Figure, at least 10 packs of GH, probably more like 15. Another 10 packs of blood claws. Every vehicle has 3-5 crew members, minus land raiders. BC Bikers, Jump Packers, Long Fangs. Wolf Guards (just because there are 20 in a force doesnt mean there are 20 in the company). Scouts as well. You cant really count Wolf Priests, Dreads, Rune Priests, etc... they are all a part of the Great Wolfs company, I believe.

 

I am just thinking that maybe, MAYBE if I field everything I have in a game of apocalypse, I might have a good chunk of a great company. Still lacking in troop numbers.

 

I can see a single Great Company being the same as an under strength chapter.