Beating Orks

[KeithGatchalian]

Neil Cauley won the Chicago GT with Orks. Marc Parker won Vegas with Orks.

 

Orks are the new Nidzilla....

 

So how do we beat them with Wolves, and do so in a tournament environment where there will be Nidzilla, Mech Eldar, and Chaos lash.....

 

My answer is drop pods with lots of flamers, some meltas, and hopefully the counterattack will give me enough attacks to win the combats....then the next turn start laying out the deathwind templates, as the second wave of pods comes in.

 

You could go with a couple large units of blood claws, some whirlwinds, some attack bikes with heavy bolters, and castle up....rune priest using stormcaller for protection....but with the speed of infantry these days, how much shooting will you actually get to do?

 

So anyone else have ideas?

[OnlyInDeath]

Well, making use of the new variants of dreads (ie, lots of heavy flamer action) in DP's would be my solution. I think dropping on their heads w/ 2-3 of these and a bucketfull of GH would spell a bad day for most swarm armies. Give enough GH meltas to deal with any mech lists, you could have a fighting chance.

[Wolf89]

I faced similar lists to how both GT's were won at both the ard boyz and the WWW 40k radio RTT (did that last one make sense?). Both times I tied but only due to missions playing in my favor.

 

The list that seemed to do the best was was my mech list with rhinos and a LRC. I had mainly all grey hunters (rhinos and such) and one large squad of blood claws inside the LRC with a wolf lord with fenrisian wolves.

 

The best unit I had was the Blood claws charging out of the land raider, it decimated his whole middle flank and since the objective was in the middle, I held it and the game ended on the 5th turn with both of us contesting it even though he had gotten more KP's. Thank god for objective missions.

 

The hardest thing was shooting at his lines, he got cover saves for everything and anything, troops, vehicles, everything. Mixing his squads together to provide an effective 4+ wall was just annoying as hell. The best way to destroy it was the Blood Claws for sure. I used my grey hunters to pick off the more specialized units like flash gits and destroy his transports.

 

Tank shocking certain units while didn't break some (when they were full strength) it forced them into certain positions of like the which drop pods rarely can accomplish. While I have yet to use a pod list against the new orks, I don't think it would fair as well as the mech list with rhinos. If you're talking strictly tournament where you'd face other opponents then drop pods is sadly your best option however, so I'll see about getting some games in with pods and see what I can come up with.

 

Against the other list I faced I was using my 13th company, and I just didn't have enough dakka to take care of them, but again, due to objectives, and my most prized unit (wulfen pack) I held out.

 

On a side note the death roller is a nasty nasty thing and should be feared, oh so feared.

[KeithGatchalian]

That intermixing thing is annoying. I'm gonna end up getting tanked in sportsmanship because if I face an opponent who tries it, I will make him measure out all his movements to make sure he doesn't move through an area smaller then his base....

 

The intent of the intervening units rule wasn't for players to intermix units.....

[KeithGatchalian]

I was thinking the rhino mech with an LRC, cause you can still pop out and flame things, but I'm hoping the pods will last a turn so you can deathwind....

 

curse them changing the rules so you can't deathwind when you drop in! Only Templars can do it now, and they don't have the umph the wolves have for dealing with Orcs...

[WolfLordLars]

I hate it in tournaments when you ask your opponent to actually follow the rules, and they dock you on sportsmanship.

 

Generally though, I expect it. Just like if you win, they will find something to gripe about.

[OnlyInDeath]

That intermixing thing is annoying. I'm gonna end up getting tanked in sportsmanship because if I face an opponent who tries it, I will make him measure out all his movements to make sure he doesn't move through an area smaller then his base....

 

The intent of the intervening units rule wasn't for players to intermix units.....

 

That's why I'm all about a couple of dreads w/ TL heavy flamers/heavy flamer offhand popping out and frying some orks. I wont complain about breaking two units of orks at the same time. Coversave? what cover save? :P Plus them shooting at the dreads afterwards will prolly give your DP's the survivability to fire the deathwinds in the following turn. Just pray you dreads might weather the storm of shooting sure to come their way. Damn orky rockets...

[Thylacine]

Keith.

 

Your going to have to work hard to bring down a big Ork list, they are playing math-hammer and you just don't have the shots to bring them down.

 

KeithGatchalian "answer is drop pods with lots of flamers, some meltas, and hopefully the counterattack will give me enough attacks to win the combats....then the next turn start laying out the deathwind templates, as the second wave of pods comes in."

 

I did this in a doubles game with my son, I used a mechanised list and he took DP's, the mission went against us 'Escalation'. I managed to set up a gun line with junior dropping in behind the tide but his GH's were soon swamped. We lost.

 

Wolf89 "The hardest thing was shooting at his lines, he got cover saves for everything and anything, troops, vehicles, everything. Mixing his squads together to provide an effective 4+ wall was just annoying as hell. The best way to destroy it was the Blood Claws for sure. I used my grey hunters to pick off the more specialized units like flash gits and destroy his transports."

 

I am thinking that one of the best ways to get around Orks is still the gun-line, thin them out before they hit and the use of template weapons. Previously I would concentrate on one Ork unit and take it down, moving units to the best fire point and using terrain to stop them rushing my units. However, now with so many using a green tide of interlocked units that won't achieve much.

 

My HS choices would be the Whirlwind, because it has indirect fire (pity the Castellan Missiles were dropped from the list) and Predator Destructor, point it at anything green and fire.

 

A WGBL with AC and two AC's in his WGBG retinue would thin things out but it will gobble up a lot of points.

 

 

KeithGatchalian "That intermixing thing is annoying. I'm gonna end up getting tanked in sportsmanship because if I face an opponent who tries it, I will make him measure out all his movements to make sure he doesn't move through an area smaller then his base...."

 

Only if used for blocking assaults, for shooting it just a good tactic they can use. Order one of the GF 9 T.A.C templates to check the spacing, I love mine but I did get hit on sports from one opponent for using it to check his assault range, he is one of those 'near enough is close enough' players who has trouble making a distinction between 6" and 6.25" or 6.5".

 

Thylacine

[IL Bane]

@ Keith

 

I will just say that Templars have now been much improved with 5th edition. I organised a 1000pt Orc vs Templars game on Saturday, the Templar player lost 6 men in TOTAL, and forced the Orc player to acknowledge defeat after 2 turns.

 

How, you say? Their most expensive vow now allows them to re-roll ANY missed hits in close combat. I saw a single Crusader squad of 10 men charged by 9 Stormboyz+1Nob, they took one casualty, then cleared their kill zone with 8 wounds. This left the Nob with 1 wound and 1 Stormboy, who failed morale and were cut down in a Sweeping Advance. Scary scary stuff as they are actually able to stand toe-to-toe with us now...

[Lord Ragnarok]

Remember Orks have a real problem with AV 13/14 and armor in general. Unfortunatley, one of the most effective weapons may be our probably, soon to be gone, Leman Russ Tank.

 

DPing against horde lists make me nervous BUT I could see tons of flamer templates, and bolter fire could have some good effect (especially if you have more than one pack arriving...) .

 

IF we get approved for the new DP rules, that could give you 2-3 packs of SW's DPIng on first turn to target a some of the nicer sized hordes.

[Wolf89]

I shot 4 AC shots into a squad of orks, they ended up loosing only 2 orks, out of a 20 man squad does nothing, it's the damn 4+ cover. The flamer is by far THE best way to deal with them. That, and the S4 AP5 whirlwind pie plate that ignores cover...

 

I ran into the same problem keith, getting knocked on sportsmanship for telling people the correct way to play their army. I had a guy complain to the judge that I won our game because of time delay... I then countered saying I made him measure his movement for all his orks because he was pulling the cover save bit and since he had like 350 some orks on the board of course it took some time. I like to think I won because I played the right way, not because I deliberately delayed the game, even though if it HAD gone another turn, then an objective might have slipped from my control...

 

Also I tank shocked a lonely ork warboss with my LRC... he did a death or glory for some reason and lost his boss. :D

 

The Land Raider crusader and possibly redeemer is your best bet nowadays.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Oooh the Redemer. Yes, that with the high AV and templates should work wonders. BUT, watch out for the biker Warboss with power fist. I have one of those with a squad of Nob bikers and painboss in my tentative greenskin list.

[Wolf89]

Oooh the Redemer. Yes, that with the high AV and templates should work wonders. BUT, watch out for the biker Warboss with power fist. I have one of those with a squad of Nob bikers and painboss in my tentative greenskin list.

 

I rarely see that squad, it's once in a blue moon because that squad with the painboss is what, 400? 500+ points?

 

They are nasty though, ohh so nasty.

 

That is my worry about the redeemer though, is that it'll get close, blow a bunch of orkies to oblivion, but then get charged by a bunch of power claws and get blown up themselves. Seeing that on the charge the average orkie will need a 6 to glance, it's not THAT big of a problem, but considering they're rolling like 50 dice, it's bound to happen. :tu:

[Lord Ragnarok]

You have to worry about the Warboss(or Two! :) ) with power Klaws. Bosses are strength 10 with Klaw.

 

 

It is true the Nob bikers fully decked is quite expensive(the one I want is 436 pts) but MUST be dealt with. However, are TUFF, and if you don't kill them quickly something else will hurt you.

[Wolf89]

You have to worry about the Warboss(or Two! :) ) with power Klaws. Bosses are strength 10 with Klaw.

 

 

It is true the Nob bikers fully decked is quite expensive(the one I want is 436 pts) but MUST be dealt with. However, are TUFF, and if you don't kill them quickly something else will hurt you.

 

Yea the S10 is a nasty thing to deal with for sure. :P

 

I faced an all biker list against a good buddy of mine at 2500 points, he had 68 bikes, and had some 450~is point nob bike squad with pain boy and such and it was a beast to deal with... until it got into combat... You see I was fielding my 13th company at the time, and I play with MotW power fisties in each squad, so I roll my 6 on my D3, swing for 8 power fist attacks killing off 7 nobs like cutting through butter...

 

Also he charged my wulfen with another bike squad with a boss, and they boyz lost combat, and ran back off the table (the boss ran like a sissy girl).

 

He also fielded that one guy with the aporkalypse or whatever and that was a funny thing to face... "what?! it's Strength is what?!, oh crap... oh? it's AP is what?... haha ok nm I saved em all" :P

 

Back onto topic for me :) , I think the whirlwinds the more I think about them, would really punch holes (litterally) in his lines, and since he has to keep coherency when he kills lines off, they'll be rows on the front, back, or sides instead of in the middle, creating a greater distance between you and them for more time to dakka them to death.

[Grey Mage]

Ive fought them three times at a slightly smaller points value *1500* and found that each time the best solution was the same- Stay back, shoot, shoot, shoot, countercharge. Plenty of troops, whatever assault cannons et all I could bring, and predators... thank god for predators.

 

Of course, each time its been against a different mechanized ork force.... they cant pull some of the twinktastic stuff during that, as each unit is in its own transport.

[Wolf89]

Ive fought them three times at a slightly smaller points value *1500* and found that each time the best solution was the same- Stay back, shoot, shoot, shoot, countercharge. Plenty of troops, whatever assault cannons et all I could bring, and predators... thank god for predators.

 

Of course, each time its been against a different mechanized ork force.... they cant pull some of the twinktastic stuff during that, as each unit is in its own transport.

 

This works against the "older" lists that actually utilized transports, but nowadays you see more foot slogging, where more dakka isn't always the answer as they'll make a lot of cover saves, the key is the cover ignore and templates.

 

If they actually use transports, you're in luck, because you wreak and explode the transports to pin them or even better make them take a bunch of saves.

 

The transport lists also mean they're less ork bodies on the table which is always nice considering most of our guys will go before their orks so we can chop them down to a more manageable size in HtH.

[OnlyInDeath]

Well, I think the best solution to the coversave problem lays in an old workhorse for SW tourney lists: the whirlwind. Most tourney lists already contain one for the good ol' blast plate value, and now that you can choose which shot you want to use before each shot, this makes them even more versitile. And, now that they've ditched the mines (which was actually quite useful against hordes) in favor of a no cover save shot, these reliable tanks are going to really come into thier own. I would suggest setting them back but still giving them line of site, as Ork rokkits are rather short range and the smaller scatter roll will be quite useful.

 

A quick note though: with the new space marine dex out, I think that you will see the return of the mechanized ork lists over the foot sloggers, mostly because there are now a LOT of answers for coversaves between the sternguard ammo types, whirlwinds, thunderfires, orbital strikes, redeemers, flamer dreads (my fav (and possibly yours too if I get on my converson and you like it)), etc. Foot sloggers, even with coversaves all over the place, will start to get torn to pieces without adequate protection. So, while this type of list is definately working right now, dont be surprised to see orks hopping back into the trukks after the space marine community gets wise with the new equipment list and the tournies start to reflect that. As for the SW, we'll have to just make do with what we can until then...

[Wolf89]

Well if you're going off the older codex (as in the ard boyz still uses the older marine dex as of now (until the finals)) then I still the whirlwind is a must have since you still do have the mines. Place them down on a squad you're about to charge, charge into them, they counter in, activating the mines, loose a few men and presto. :P

[OnlyInDeath]

Come to think of it Keith, doesnt the RB state that only units that are behind a friendly squad count count as recieving a cover save, or that you have to shoot through another unit to provide it? just make an ork player specifically state which unit is in front of the other so that you know which one to shoot. One has to technically be in front of the other, or else they are both taking up the same space and therefore neither behind, nor being shot at through, the other. I know it's rules nitpicking, but when you are facing an opponend that's willing to bend the rules THAT badly, then screw it, be a cheesy git back:)

[Wolf89]

Come to think of it Keith, doesnt the RB state that only units that are behind a friendly squad count count as recieving a cover save, or that you have to shoot through another unit to provide it? just make an ork player specifically state which unit is in front of the other so that you know which one to shoot. One has to technically be in front of the other, or else they are both taking up the same space and therefore neither behind, nor being shot at through, the other. I know it's rules nitpicking, but when you are facing an opponend that's willing to bend the rules THAT badly, then screw it, be a cheesy git back:)

 

Nope, there are multiple ways to receive cover, and I don't find where it says there has to be a squad "in front" all I find (which is all they need to pull this off) is if you can't see more than 50% of the squad from shooting through another squad and vice versa.

[Grey Mage]

I thought no unit was allowed to be within an inch of another unit without either being in assault with that unit or joining it.

 

IIRC that means that unless they do things ever so carefully this cant be pulled off- base size is about 1", 2" coherency= 1/2" on each side at the most... wich means they would be to close. Right?

[Wolf89]

I thought no unit was allowed to be within an inch of another unit without either being in assault with that unit or joining it.

 

IIRC that means that unless they do things ever so carefully this cant be pulled off- base size is about 1", 2" coherency= 1/2" on each side at the most... wich means they would be to close. Right?

 

You're thinking of IC's, and if they move within 2" of a unit they must join it (unless already with another unit). Or you're thinking of the enemy model rule which is 1" away unless assaulting.

 

There is no restrictions on units (friendly) being close to each other in any way. Which makes perfect sense in all aspects of the game, too bad there are those who exploit it... and to think, all we did was take away their 5+ gretchin line... we should have let them keep it... :D

[Aeric]

This 4+ cover cheat doesn't actually work. Models only receive a cover save if more than half are obscured. If not they receive none.

 

If an opponent mixes units, fire at the one you can see the most of.

In the unlikely event its exactly 50/50 he only gets a 5+ save. (make sure you check to waste time and irritate your opponent).

 

Does this make sense?

[Grey Mage]

Orks have large units... 20 guys are certainly enough to intermix atleast ten heck, you can do it with two squads of ten like so:

 

xxxxx

ooooo

xxxxx

ooooo

 

Each squad gives the other a coversave from the front atleast.

 

Whirlwinds seem like our best friend here... wounding on 3's, ignoring cover saves and armor.... its good stuff. And when you have 40-60 boys, you wont miss.