Question about 5th edition pinning.

[cruton]

This is actually a spin off of a topic from Tauonline. http://forums.tauonline.org/index.php?topic=70692.0 (ignore the poll at the top of the screen)

 

I apologize if a topic similar to this has been posted previously, i did not see any.

 

Over at Tauonline some one brought up the fact that the 5th edition rule book had changed the rules for pinning tests. The nice people at Tauonline came up with a few not so widely accepted conclusions, that I would like to check with a few other people to confirm them or not.

 

Instead of pinning tests being taken due to casualties as in 4th edition, it changed to any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon causes the unit to take a test. This means that a weapon can now wound independent characters and groups of models with multiple wounds (mega-nobs, crisis suits, ogryns) only once and not kill anything, but they still have to test for pinning.(as long as their not fearless)

 

This also might mean something else. Some people believe that if a squad with all pinning weapons make a number of unsaved wounds for a number of weapons then a number of pinning tests need to be made. If a squad of 5 models with sniper rifles, pinning weapons, fire on an enemy squad and wound 3 models then the enemy squad must take 3 pinning tests. Because the rules say any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon must immediately take a pinning test, 3 weapons cause 3 wounds = 3 tests. As for barrage weapons, pinning in 5th edition, that blast, they may cause multiple wounds but still only cause one test. Multiple wounds for a single weapon causes one pinning test. However if many barrage weapons were in a single unit then there could be as many tests as there are weapons, if each weapon caused a wound.

 

Are these the correct rules for pinning? I don't see anything wrong with them, with so many fearless armies (necron, tyranid, daemons, and orks with mob rule) and most other armies having such high leadership along with a few fearless units. It would also level out the playing-field for the more shooty armies, with all the close combat armies running that extra D6 closer to melee every turn. What does everyone think?

[ShinyRhino]

As far as i know, you only take ONE pinning test per unit per turn, no matter how many wounds were caused by the weapons firing upon them. I don't have the rolebook here at work, so I'm sure someone will be able to confirm or deny this by the time I get home and look it up.

[Kapitan Montag]

I agree with both of Cruton's readings of the rules.

 

BBB says" If a unit ... suffers any unsaved wounds, it must immediately take a pinning test" and it later goes on to say that a unit may have to take multiple pinning tests in a turn (unless it is already pinned). I guess you could argue that as you probably roll all your saves from the shooting from one squad at the same time you just roll once per enemy squad. But I'll be going for 2 sniper wounds = 2 pinning tests

 

I can see it now -

 

SHting! THUD.

 

"Sniper!"

 

"don't worry guys, keep mov...." Shting! THUD. "err.. Take COVER!"

 

can't wait!

[Mal]

that is correct, if you pass the pinning test you do not need to take another that turn, if you fail all subsequent pinning tests are ignored.

 

So regardless of how many woulds you take, you only ever take 1 pinning test per turn.

[Kapitan Montag]

No Mal - BBB p31 - if you pass a test you may have to take subsequent tests that turn

 

(that's what I said wasn't it?)

[ShinyRhino]

Right, so you'd take one test for each unit that caused unsaved pinning wounds. So if you have a barrage weapon and a sniper squad hit your guys in one turn, that's two pinning tests. You don't roll for each unsaved wound.

[cruton]

I'm confused. Did ShinyRhino just agree to Kaptain Montag saying that you take a test per unit not per weapon, when Kaptain Montag said you test per weapon and not per unit?

 

So who's right?

[SeattleDV8]

Since all the wounds from a unit happen at the same time, I tend to the one test per unit. The one test per wound side has a good argument , but I feel its too powerful that way.

[Kapitan Montag]

Yeah it probably is one test per unit.

I was thinking it would be cool to get a chance for a pin with each of my snipers

- but if it was my troops getting hit: I wouldn't think it was so cool :D

[Gurth]

I guess you could argue that as you probably roll all your saves from the shooting from one squad at the same time you just roll once per enemy squad.

You allocate wounds only after the opponent has finished shooting and rolling for wounds for all weapons, so even if the shooting unit has multiple weapons that cause pinning tests, you would roll their wounds and possible saves for them at the same time.

 

I would also say you test once per unit that fired at you, not once per weapon.

[Kapitan Montag]

Good point Gurth - that settles it for me - thanks ( I won't get into any silly arguments now when I start sniping people)

[DevianID]

I know this topic has come up and been answered by others before, but to confirm you take a pinning check each time a pinning weapon causes an unsaved wound. Please dont make the mistake that its once per unit, the new 5th edition rules are very clear that it is per weapon.

 

An example: A 10 man unit of space marine scouts has 9 sniper rifles and a missle launcher. They fire their weapons at a 5 man tactical squad with a sergant and flamer. All 9 sniper rifles and the krak missile launcher hit, all wound. The marine player allocates the missile and 1 sniper wound to the flamer, and 2 sniper wounds to the veteran, and the remaining 6 sniper wounds go to bolter marines. The Krak missile kills the flamer marine, and his sniper wound is discounted. 2 of the bolter marines fail their save versus sniper hits, and the veteran fails both of his sniper armor saves, thus 1 is discounted as he is a 1 wound model. Thus, pinning weapons have caused a total of 3 unsaved wounds, so 3 pinning checks must be made. You can roll them 1 at a time if you dont have enough sets of multicolored dice to roll them at the same time, but the effect is the same... if any of the 3 dice rolls fail then the unit goes to ground.

 

If there is a rule I missed, please give me the page number so I can amend how I play!

[Cale]

No, DevianID, you're correct. Nothing in the rule suggests that there is a limit of one test per firing unit. Rather, the pinning rule triggers each time a wound is inflicted by a pinning weapon. That is perfectly clear. One pinning test per (unsaved) wound. I think you're doing it right.

[nighthawks]

I think, Cale, that you have one minor error/oversimplification - it is "any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon" - so a lone, single-shot barrage weapon (blast template) that inflicts more than one unsaved wound causes one test. multiple sniper rifles then test per unsaved wound as each weapon is 1 shot.

 

Personally, I think it aught to be one test per firing unit, its simpler and quicker, but what I prefer and what is handed down from the boys in England are not always in line. I am hoping for a FAQ on this.

 

Edit: removed comments about pulse carines that, it turns out, are wrong as they are assault 1 (thankfully).

[WarpSpawn]

I'm going to start by admitting this may be more opinion than facts supported by RAW but here's my take on it.

 

When it says "a pinning weapon", in this context I believe they mean "a type of pinning weapon". So, on this basis, I would suggest it is one pinning test per type of pinning weapon that causes wounds from a single unit firing.

 

I suspect there are other, equally valid interpretations. They could effective mean "any pinning weapons", for example, which would support the idea of one test per firing unit.

 

Either way, it is not as clear as it could be but I doubt the intention is 1 test per individual weapon.

[Cale]

I think, Cale, that you have one minor error/oversimplification - it is "any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon" - so a lone, single-shot barrage weapon (blast template) that inflicts more than one unsaved wound causes one test. multiple sniper rifles then test per unsaved wound as each weapon is 1 shot.

 

That's a good catch, actually. It is per weapon rather than per wound.

[SeattleDV8]

A very reasonable take on it Warp. That makes good sense. Improves the pinning rules without being overpowering if it was per wound.

[nighthawks]

well - FAQ is out (!) and there's no mention. gonna be a long winter...

[HiveFleetEzekial]

Glad to see I'm not the *only* one to have cought this significant change. I tried to argue this here, on warseer, and IRL, when the new rules came out.. and roughly 95% of responces tried to squash it.

 

Till GW get off their lazy arses (which I don't forsee happening anytime in this edition, or current staff), it's per weapon that causes a wound. 10 man unit of snipers, all wound, nomatter what rate of fire the weapons have = 10 checks max, unless they fail before all of them go, or the GtG.

[SeattleDV8]

That is NOT what I am agreeing too. if a squad with 5 sniper rifles and Sgt Telion shoot(using his pinning bolter) and wound 6 times. I would get the squad 2 pinning tests. one for each weapon type that wounds. Not per wound. I believe if you read Warps post a little more closely he is saying this also.

[nighthawks]

DV8 - That is exaclty what WarpSpawn said (weapon type) but acknowldeged that it's not really in line with the rules, just sensible. a clear reading of the rules indicates undaved wound "per weapon." is it overpowered? maybe. does it make sense? sure - remember, fluff can be used to argue anything, as Praeger always loves to point out. for now, though, house rule your way if you like, have fun - it's what it's all about. but the RAW rule is per wounding weapon.

[SeattleDV8]

sigh....I can not argue....pure RAW could very well be that way....Overpowered? yup... should it be as Warp wishes...YES !

 

but if someone I'm playing insists on that......I would give it to them....try to argue against it sure.

[WarpSpawn]

RAW aside for a second, the thing I am having trouble accepting is that the designers might actually be intending for a unit to take upwards of 10 pinning tests per turn. Even 5 tests would result in quite a high probability of failure on anyone with Ld <10. Hard to achieve with sniper rifles. Not so hard with ordnance weapons.

 

Against a multi-wound unit, like ork nobz, this does not even have to result in the unit being rendered combat ineffective due to wounds.

 

Seems to me with 3 such weapons and a bit of luck with scatter dice, you could freeze in place and likely destroy a good portion of a horde each and every turn. Does this not seem a little overpowered? It's not like all ordnance weapons cost massive amounts.

[Cale]

Well, Warpspawn, as Nighthawks pointed out, it's per weapon, rather than per wound. So, a Whirlwind shot which kills five orks still only provokes one pinning test. You're not really taking lots of pinning tests until you're getting shot by squads with sniper rifles or pulse carbines or whatnot. Personally, I think Pinning was too weak, before. I think it's kinda neat that they wrote it, this time, so that your snipers actually have a reasonable chance of pinning somebody.

[WarpSpawn]

Yeah, Ok, I misread that a bit.

 

You could still get a 10 man squad of scouts with rifles pretty cheap and at least keep a single enemy unit's heads down with some certainty. Still think it's a bit overpowered if it's per wound, though perhaps not as much as I how was reading it before.