C:SM Tactical Marines questions

[Vutall]

Hello everyone, just a couple questions im looking to clear up.

Under the Tactical Squad wargear, it lists Bolt Pistol, and Boltgun, so do all marines have both?

Second, for the Marine Sergeant, is it legal to have a Bolt pistol& Chainsword, or only one or the other?

Third, if above is legal, does the Sergeant gain an additional attack for pistol+chainsword?

[Hexx]

1) Yes all marines in the squad have both

2) Yes, as the Sgt may replace his Bolter with a Chainsword for free

3) Yes, as he'll now have an additional CCW.

[Vutall]

Thank you kindly. Im not used to marines at all. Ive only played Daemonhunters or Sisters in my past, but having over 6,000 points in each army respectfully ((and thats without allies!)) i figured it was time to do something different.

[WarpSpawn]

The default equipment of the whole squad is bolter and bolt pistol.

 

It's fully legal to have bolter pistol and chainsword. Simply replace the bolter with the chainsword and keep the pistol.

 

He obeys the rules for having 2 normal close combat weapons, as mentioned on page 42 of the BRB.

[BrotherWasted]

Does this then mean that he now performs 3 attacks in close combat?

 

On a slightly off-note topic, but of similar nature:

 

- I elect for my captain to take a Relic Blade and Boltgun (w/ Hellfire Rounds ;)).

- His base attack stat is 3.

- The bonus for having an additional close-combat weapon is removed by the Relic Blade, does this then mean his attack stat is reduced to 2? Is the bonus attack from the bolt pistol/chainsword already incorporated into the base stats in the codex?

[SeattleDV8]

Yes the Sgt. get 3 attacks ( 2 base +1 for 2 CCW)

The Captain keeps his base Attacks ,3 in this case . the bonus is always added ,as in the case of the sgt.

[Brother Gothard]

I think its important to point out the distinction between BASE ATTACKS and BONUS ATTACKS. The attack stat on a model's profile is in no way affected by the weapons he is carrying (unless there is a second number in brackets, which may represent having more or less attacks because of some special wargear that the model always carries). So a normal captain with get 3 base, +1 for having two CCWs. He may also get +1 for charging. But his base is ALWAYS 3.

[Mal]

I think its important to point out the distinction between BASE ATTACKS and BONUS ATTACKS. The attack stat on a model's profile is in no way affected by the weapons he is carrying (unless there is a second number in brackets, which may represent having more or less attacks because of some special wargear that the model always carries). So a normal captain with get 3 base, +1 for having two CCWs. He may also get +1 for charging. But his base is ALWAYS 3.

 

with the dubious exception of some special characters, but it will tell you this in their descritpion sections (i.e. bonus attacks for commander X have been included in his profile above)

[BrotherWasted]

Another issue I see here then is that a Space Marine Captain/Chapter Master comes standard with Bolt Pistol and Chainsword. If their base is 3, and any model gets +1 for having an additional CCW, would he then not have 4 attacks simply by taking him as a stock model?

 

This Codex is incredibly lacking in structure, IMO.

[Hexx]

Another issue I see here then is that a Space Marine Captain/Chapter Master comes standard with Bolt Pistol and Chainsword. If their base is 3, and any model gets +1 for having an additional CCW, would he then not have 4 attacks simply by taking him as a stock model?

 

This Codex is incredibly lacking in structure, IMO.

 

 

??

 

Yes, but as soon (if) he switches one of those for a stormbolter/combiweapon/relic blade/powerfist/etc. etc. he will no longer get the bonus attack.

I think the codex is structured very well.

I think it's a very poorly represented army, but I think the structure's about as perfect as we'll get from GW.

[BrotherWasted]

That makes sense.

 

But if that's the case, then their base profile should be in fact stating they have 4 attacks with their base wargear, not three. It's a point that's going to be argued on by my fellow players, that's a certainty.

[WarpSpawn]

But if that's the case, then their base profile should be in fact stating they have 4 attacks with their base wargear, not three.

 

Not really. The rules for close combat weapons say you gain attacks on top of the model's profile if you have 2 weapons, not that you lose attacks from your profile if you don't.

[rat of vengence]

He has his base attacks. On that, you put any bonuses, such as +1 for charge, +1 for CCW/pistol combo etc.

 

If anyone argues this with you, hit them with the rule book. :)

 

 

RoV

[Brother Gothard]

But if that's the case, then their base profile should be in fact stating they have 4 attacks with their base wargear, not three. It's a point that's going to be argued on by my fellow players, that's a certainty.

THAT would be an example of bad structure. It's also silly. His base attack stat is 3, without wargear. The fact that he comes standard with a BP + CCW adds nothing to his BASE ATTACK, because you can change that with his wargear choices. Dont confuse things.

[nighthawks]

What about named characters? as they do not have wargear options, it is my understanding that their profile will include the attacks granted by 2 CCWs, if they are so equipped. I don't know if there is a passage somewhere to clear this up, one way or another, but i think I have it right.

 

comments?

[BrotherWasted]

If what is being said in this thread is correct, then their profiles do NOT include the bonus attacks.

 

To list them all out:

 

Marneus Calgar: Power Sword and 2 Power Fists. Should have 4 attacks + 1 bonus for having two Power Fists.

Cato Sicarius: Plasma Pistol and Power Sword (Talassarian Tempest Blade). Should have 3 attacks + 1 bonus.

Tigurius: Bolt pistol and Force Weapon. Should have 2 attacks + 1 bonus.

Cassius: Crozius Arcanum and Bolt Pistol. Should have 2 attacks + 1 bonus.

Cantor: Power Fist + Storm Bolter. No bonus.

Lysander: Thunder Hammer + Storm Shield. No bonus.

Shrike: Twin Lightning Claws. Should have 3 attacks +1 bonus for having two of these weapons.

Vulkan He'Stan: Bolt Pistol + Relic Blade (Spear of Vulkan). No bonus.

Korsarro Khan: Bolt Pistol + Power Sword (Moonfang). 3 attacks + 1 bonus.

Telion: Bolt Pistol + Boltgun. No bonus.

Chronus: Bolt Pistol + Servo-Arm. Should have 2 attacks + 1 bonus - a Servo-Arm works exactly like a power fist in function, but is not explicitly described as being a power fist, thus is not subject to the same limitation on extra attacks (making Masters of the Forge pretty funky frontline leaders XD)

[SeattleDV8]

No need to be snarky Bro W. . a simple no would have worked. the examples were helpfull. I could also give several DA named characters that only give the base attacks. Nighthawks was just asking.

[BrotherWasted]

Sorry, I didn't mean to come off that way.

 

I understand how it all works now, but I figured I'd just throw out what I'd calculated for the special characters as well.

[nighthawks]

I didn't read that as being snarky - but I ask as the unnamed HQ options may or may not be given kit that adds an attack to their "basic" profile. the named characters may not be given additional gear to modify their basic stats.

 

and with the exception of calgar in your list, all of them COULD operate under the assumption that the bonus attack has been added to their profile. Calgar, by contrast, has the option of attacking with 2 fists OR a fist and PW - electing to use the PW and NOT getting the bonus from 2 fists. he alone proves that your interpretation is correct.

 

thanks!

[WarpSpawn]

You don't really need to cite specific examples to prove BrotherWasted's interpretation though. Page 37 clearly says the number of attacks is the model's A characteristic, plus the bonus attacks, which includes those granted by two weapons. This is the norm, anything else is the exception. The fact that the wargear may come as standard in some cases is irrelevant.

 

I can only assume any examples where extra attacks are included in the profile are explicitly stated to do so.

[SeattleDV8]

Late night posting can lead to odd mental states. indeed reading the post while wide awake I don't see the snark myself. Sorry for the misinterpretation.

[Legatus]

I ask as the unnamed HQ options may or may not be given kit that adds an attack to their "basic" profile. the named characters may not be given additional gear to modify their basic stats.

Every model has a basic attack value, without weapons being figured in. Tactical Marines have 1 attack, and tehy don't get any extra from weapons. Assault Marines have 1 basic attack, but they get +1 for having bolt pistol and close combat weapon. Captains have 3 basic attacks, and they get +1 if they keep their bolt pistol and chainsword (but who would use those?). But if you give him a powerfist he would only get his base attacks.

That is the system how model profiles and calculating attacks works. If special characters would have all their attacks in their statline, including weapons, people would be confused, because they are used to take a models basic attack value and add the additional bonuses. If Marneus Calgar had 5 attacks in his stat line, intended to include the bonus for teh fists (ignoring the powersword for a moment) people would assume from how other models profiles work that the attacks for the powerfists are added ono top of that.

[nighthawks]

thanks, all - I understand all of the rules for bonus attacks and whatnot, I was only curious about named characters without wargear or weapon options, as I remember their stats being unmodified by the equipment they come with. obviously, I was mistaken.