I Can't Attack Counter-Chargers?

[itcamefromthedeep]

The local gamers have a somewhat unothodox interpretation of the rules on multiple combats on page 41.

 

They say that you can't attack newcomers in an assault because you must attack units you were engaged with at the beginning of the combat (i.e. the original assault). The justification is that the counter-chargers catch the original unit by surprise. So, for example:

 

-1- Marines assault Carnifex, everything is fine.

 

-2- Genestealers assault Marines, Marines must attack the Carnifex.

 

Where I have problems with this interpretation is the next round of combat:

 

-3- Genestealers vs Marines vs Carnifex: Marines must attack the Carnifex

 

It's the same situation as before (the Marines were only engaged with the Carnifex at the beginning of the combat, so they have to attack it). It gets worse:

 

-4- Terminators assault Genestealers, Genestealers attack Terminators

 

The Genestealers were not engaged with anyone at the "beginning of the combat", so they are free to attack whoever they feel like. To head some people off at the pass, the local gamers dismiss the "(before any model attacked)" phrase as referring to strategic casualty removal alone. They do not see it as a clarification.

 

The local gamers ignore these problems and allow the new unit to be attacked after that round. The way they play it isn't exactly broken or unfair to one army or another, it's just odd. Does anyone else play by this? Am I the crazy one here?

[Captain Malachi]

I'm guessing these local gamers are the guys with the genestealers?

[itcamefromthedeep]

Nope

[Captain Malachi]

Sorry, I'm a cynic, does seem like a wierd way to play it though.

 

Edit- And welcome to the board, just noticed your post count lol.

[Brother Gothard]

My my. It took me several readings to get through that rather awkwardly written page. I've read it before but I did not understand it the way your Local Gaming Group did.

 

I dont think anyone is crazy, but they certainly have read those rules rather strangely.

 

Tell me, what do they make of the 'Defenders React' entry on that same page? In your example, Marines v Carnifex v Genestealers (which, by the way, should actually be written Marines v Carnifex and Genestealers), any Marines that were not in base to base contact with the Carnifex get to make 'counter-charge' reactions to the Genestealers, and also against the Carnifex ("not just the enemies that that just assaulted them"). Why would they get to make this reaction if they were not allowed to attack them?

 

So, in the Marines v Carnifex and Genestealers example, any Marines that reacted to the Genestealers charge, that are now 'locked in combat' with the Genestealers, would count as engaged with them. I believe the "beginning of the combat" phrase is being used to mean the beginning of that combat phase, but it is curious that they did not specifically say that. The only hint is the "before any model attacked" clarification.

 

Under my reading, the Marines may attack any model that they are engaged with. I do not understand the justification that counter-charges catch the original unit by surprise. Marines have internal vox systems; they'd be warned by the commander/HUD/comrades of incoming enemies. The same is true of nearly any unit on the field - their commander or comrades would vox or shout at them.

 

Unfortunately, I do see that their reading is supported by the rules as written. However, their reading might cause a problem if the Carnifex dies. Then the Marines would not be able to attack the Genestealers either, because they were not engaged with them when the combat initially began. The Marines must direct their attacks against the Carnifex, even though it is dead. Their reading means they cannot attack units that they did not charge, or that did not charge them for the first round of combat.

 

I may be stretching it a bit at the end, but it is not totally unreasonable to assume that. Basically, I'm stumped.

[Leethal]

I'm with Gothard....it's kinda...there but isn't...

 

Course, I'm somewhat surprised that the Carni didn't wipe you out, then followed by the Stealers. Must be some horrendous dice rolls going on.

 

But...I think those not in base to base contact with the Carni should have thrown a few attacks at the Stealers assuming they didn't die in the initial charge.

[Long Fang]

Surely you can attack anything you are in base contact with, or if you are within 2" of one of your models that are in base contact.

 

Your Marines can't attack my stealers even tho there in base contact because there attacking a carnifex? This makes no logical sense. Assuming the above conditions are met you can attack whatever unit you please.

 

The simplest solution is to pop into yer local GW or Mail them/ring one if you don't have one near by. Frankly these people are trying to fleece you.

[Long Fang]

Yarr just looked it up, key points

 

If a unit that is already locked in combat from a previous turn is assaulted by a new enemy unit, it can react as normal

 

Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) must attack that unit.

 

Basically, if your only in contact with the fex or the stealers you can only attack that.

In contact with both or not in contact but within 2" of both you can choose who to attack.

not in contact but within 2" of one attack that one

(2" being to one of your models that is in contact)

not in contact not within 2" of a model that is - make a cup of tea

Done and done, imo

 

Fang

[Brother Gothard]

That is indeed the way the rules were written from 4th edition, and indeed I do not think they changed these rules at all (except to add the defenders react part) but they are not written like that anymore (I also think that the diagram at the bottom of the page addresses only combats between two initial units, and does nothing to explain combat with late comers).

 

Now, the most important part of the rule is the specific phrase at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked). What does that mean? Well, most people (including me) think that is referring to the beginning of the combat phase, before any models have rolled attacks, but after models have made their 'defenders react' moves. The problem is that it can ALSO be read the way itcamefromthedeep's LGG reads it, that it refers to the beginning of the entire combat, not just that combat round. So, if the Marines charged the Carnifex, and only the Carnifex, then THAT is the unit they must direct their attacks to, for that is the unit that they "were engaged with...at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked)." The same is true of the Carnifex; it can only attack the Marines for the same reason.

 

The Genestealers and the Terminators are the lucky participants who joined after the combat began and can attack anyone they are engaged with, with the only restriction being who they are 'locked into combat' with.

 

You are correct to highlight that any unit in a combat can react as normal, but that is only in regards to their 'defenders react' move. The other section on the page addresses the 'extra rules' that apply to attackers. The reaction move is totally irrelevant to who those models can attack.

 

I'm not saying it is true either way. I am saying that it seems it can legitimately be read both ways.

[Reglor]

Now, the most important part of the rule is the specific phrase at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked). What does that mean? Well, most people (including me) think that is referring to the beginning of the combat phase, before any models have rolled attacks, but after models have made their 'defenders react' moves. The problem is that it can ALSO be read the way itcamefromthedeep's LGG reads it, that it refers to the beginning of the entire combat, not just that combat round. So, if the Marines charged the Carnifex, and only the Carnifex, then THAT is the unit they must direct their attacks to, for that is the unit that they "were engaged with...at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked)." The same is true of the Carnifex; it can only attack the Marines for the same reason.

 

The Genestealers and the Terminators are the lucky participants who joined after the combat began and can attack anyone they are engaged with, with the only restriction being who they are 'locked into combat' with.

 

The problem with that interpitation is that they are using diffrent interpitations for "at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked)" for diffrent units. If you use it the way they want, then the temies and genestealers were not in base to base contact "at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked)" and should not be able to attack anyone. Unless they are in a diffrent combat from the models they are attacking.

[King_Pash]

I'm with Long Fang on this. You deal with each model independently. If a model is in B2B with any enemy unit it may direct it's attacks against it. Simple.

[Long Fang]

@: brother gothard. Indeed they are still written like that, i can see how you could interpret it in that way but tbh i can;t see why you would. I think the only way to get a clear answer is ask a GW employee. Should clear it up for us.

 

Fang

[SeattleDV8]

My personal read on this rule (which would have helps if they had put it this way) Is that the rule re-sets every turn. So you don't worry what happened last turn only where every one is at the start of this turn.

[Brother Gothard]

I'm with you, SeattleDV8.

[Mordekiem]

Surely you can attack anything you are in base contact with, or if you are within 2" of one of your models that are in base contact.

 

Your Marines can't attack my stealers even tho there in base contact because there attacking a carnifex? This makes no logical sense. Assuming the above conditions are met you can attack whatever unit you please.

 

The simplest solution is to pop into yer local GW or Mail them/ring one if you don't have one near by. Frankly these people are trying to fleece you.

Long Fang is correct.

 

The key to remember here is that the begining of combat IS NOT the begining of the assault phase.

 

Please refer to pg 33 of your rulebook.

The assault phase has 3 steps:

Assaulters move

defenders react

Resolve combat

 

So say the marines assaulted the carnifex. combat went to a standstill.

 

On the next turn the genestealers assaulted.

 

Marines can attack either unit assuming they are in base with them. If they are not in base then you see who they are closest to and all that jazz.

 

By the time you get to the combat portion of the assault phase you are indeed in base contact with the 'stealers.

[itcamefromthedeep]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, many and various peoples of the interweb.

 

Gothard, you have an accurate grasp of the situation.

 

Now, I played at the Toronto battle bunker over the summer before heading to University Guelph for the school year. At the bunker, we used the common interpretation. It's only at the local gaming store in Guelph that they use this wierd interpretation. Thankfully the university games club uses the common view.

 

For the moment, when gaming at the local store I'll use their rules (after all, it's not exactly broken the way they play it). It's not a big problem, I just wish it weren't a problem at all.

[Brother Gothard]

Glad we could help!!! (though I'm not sure the "answerers" really understood the problem).

 

Sounds like you've resigned to just deal with it while you have to. As you said, its not like it benefits anyone unfairly.