NaZ Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 So I just got into the army, here is my 1500 list Canoness Blessed wpn, bolt pistol, cloak, book, jump pack 10 sisters vet w/ eviscerator, h flamer, meltagun rhino 10 sisters vet w/ eviscerator, h flamer, meltagun rhino 10 sisters vet w/ eviscerator, h flamer, meltagun rhino 10 sisters vet w/ eviscerator, h flamer, meltagun rhino 8 seraphim, vet w/ eviscerator, 2 flamers 10 retributors, vet w/ combi meltagun, 4 heavy bolters, simulacrum 1 exorcist I do have another exorcist, an inquisitor w/ retinue, an assassin or two, some other goodies for larger games but being totally new to the army, I wanted to find out the opinion on inducted guard or IST. most of what I have seen has been related to DH rather than sisters. so a few questions If you induct guard, are they allowed to use doctrines? if you take the footslogging version are you trying to do it for lascannons or missile launchers? admittedly this seems like a good prospect. for about 200 points you get 25 models and 2 lascannons. thats not too shabby but not an especially efficient use of points either are the IST worth it? I'm considering it just because they can take plasmaguns or grenade launchers, and their chimera isn't too shabby either. if there is any other useful information, I'd love to hear about it Thanks, NaZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferrous Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 This is just personal opinion, but IST is not all that worth it for Sisters. For a few points more, you get a better armor save and the ability to use faith, and chimera's are only BS3. (and immolators are a better choice for heavy flamers.) I could see maybe inducting guard for lascannons and using their book to keep'em from running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted October 16, 2008 Share Posted October 16, 2008 Guardsmen are CHEAP! At roughly a 2 for 1 ratio compared to Inquisitorial Stormtroopers or Sisters you can get a horde rather quickly, then with 2 choices you get a Leman Russ or Sentinels as possibilities. It really depends on what you're aiming for overall. Inducted guard may NOT use Doctrines (is the general consensus). I've been very impressed by my Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, which I have for fluff reasons as well in my army. I like them. Many do not, to each their own. I'm of a mixed view of Chimeras in the Inquisition. I Love them in my guard army.. but.. I'm considering rhinos for the Stormtroopers personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaZ Posted October 16, 2008 Author Share Posted October 16, 2008 I don't think I'd take guard if I weren't able to use the doctrines. though I don't see why they couldnt. its an army I'm doing just for fun.. if I wanted to play super competitive I'd just play my KoS orks ;) i'm just curious since I'm still in the trading/buying phase for this army if its worth it, I might bother. the IST or armored fist have the advantage of yet another vehicle which doesn't seem a bad thing.. but IST are atleast BS4. none of them can really fight in HtH so thats fine NaZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auedawen Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Really guardsmen aren't worth it in the long run. Sisters are just too cheap and too durable to justify spending points on the little meat pies. There's a fair deal of AP-3 weaponry out there, but not enough to counter the survival of sisters (not to mention those amazing faith powers). Plus adding guardsmen increases your number of Killpoints, and at 10 bodies per squad (and thus kill point) you'll be hard pressed to win back the kill points lost. IST on the other hand are a fair deal more durable than guardsmen, but simply not good enough to justify saving 1 point per model from a sister. With sisters you get the same BS, a Bolter, power armor, AND faith points. IST give you hellguns (blech), 4+ armor save, plasma guns and chimaera's. Really the only upside to IST is the plasma gun, which isn't necessary at all when sisters have Melta guns and Divine Guidance. You'd likely be a lot happier (and more successful) with an all sisters list. However, if you play IG normally, you can still induct a fair number of Sisters into a parent IG army. This would give you a solid core of Sisters as well as the artillery of the guard (this option may actually be competitive). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toogeloo Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 The only inducted guard regiment I have found to work is a single Infantry Platoon with a heavy weapon in each squad, usually autocannons and heavy bolters, and I wouldn't try it unless you are playing 1500 points or above. Going too low and you weigh too heavily on the guard. You can try to squeeze in another Platoon at 2500 points, but don't fret about trying to get that Leman in on your side. You start to water your Sisters down way too much trying to get that tank and it actually hurts more than it helps. The reason the single platoon works so well is that they are like a slightly more utilitarian Retributor squad with scoring power. For 75 to 80 points per squad, you get good anti infantry support that has potential to stop Rhino's and Razorbacks and chew up foot sloggers. I wouldn't spend the points on the Lascannons, you have mobile Eviscerators and Exorcists to help with stronger punch power. Pure Sisters has such a strong focus that if you can bring the Guard in with the Platoon, you will be able to relax more on the rush power and make your opponent worry about more heavy weapons without spending the Heavy Support slot to get them. One nifty trick is to take a Canoness with a Book and plant her between all the Guardsmen so that if they take casualties, they can benefit from her leadership. If you want to further deck her out, you could that way she can jump in to intervene with incoming assault squads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaZ Posted October 17, 2008 Author Share Posted October 17, 2008 normally i'm an ork player :P I had a blood angels army, but just gutted it out on dakkadakka because of the new marine dex. turned and burned on ebay to pick up a 2000ish points sisters army few models to tweak or convert.. might have to repaint them as well. but nobody in my play group plays sisters.. or if they do they play them badly. since I'm still in the trading/aquisition phase of the army, I figured it would be good to ask what other players are doing. I'd hate to go ahead and trade for 20 guardsman and a couple of chimeras only to find out their crap. and your arguement makes sense. its only 200ish points for a 10sister squad in rhino with the trimmings. not a bad deal at all. and gogo faith points NaZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltnot Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 Sisters are better value for points, blah, blah, blah... Sisters are more durable, blah, blah, blah.... The extra Sister squad is an extra faith point, blah, blah, blah... The extra sister squad sitting in my deployment zone holding the objective located there hasn't done anything all game? The Sister Squad in my deployment zone holding the objective is getting slowly whittled away without being able to return fire because they are out of range? I just paid over 150 points for a single faith point and lost the game because I was unable to hold my objective? For 230 Points you get 25 scoring models to sit in terrain on an objective. Three Grenade Launchers that keep them useful if you need them to move up onto an objective just outside of your deployment zone. Three Missile Launchers (or Autocannons) which can either assist your Exorcists vs Armour and MC's, or add their firepower to breaking up the 150+ Orks coming your way. An Imperial Guard Platoon is a much better option for holding objectives that will be located either within or near your deployment zone in 2/3 of the missions that you will play. Also, have you ever seen how hoard it is to remove 25 models that have gone to ground in cover? It's not easy especially when chances are, your sisters have the enemy bailed up on the other side of the board. The failings of most Sister based WH armies is they lack ranged anti tank (excluding Exorcists) and suitable units for holding objectives in and near their own deployment zone (because they all drive/run across the field to flame the enemy). An Imperial Guard Platoon fulfills both of the major shortcomings rather effectively. I do play in tournaments, and I won't be leaving without a guard platoon in anything over 1000 points (I use a small squad of stromtroopers with grenade launchers at 1000 points for the same reasons). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaZ Posted October 17, 2008 Author Share Posted October 17, 2008 fair enough assesment. in my 1850 list, I'm paying like 230 for an 8 seraphim unit. (I'm fielding 2) for that many points, I think I could take 2 lascannons and a bunch of guardsman. its an interesting prospect. they don't have to seperate into different parts of the board. so you could plunk down a pretty huge squad right onto a home objective, which is always helpful but what is good in one scenario is bad in another. in KP missions you pay dearly for this, unless your group is using the ard boyz kill points rules which are much more fair for everyone. I don't know if I'll get some guardsman, but its an interesting prospect that I'll have to think about NaZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charred Heretic Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 "..." All good points from Eltnot Another perspective I'd add is that ISTs are unbeatable in their success as a cheap scoring unit. And if you double up on their special weapons, their limited role further expands to include being a cheap, close range fire support. Altogether not highly versatile, but ISTs can definitely be competitive if you play resourcefully. As a general rule, all alliances seem to thrive in proportion to the size (points) of the game. And yes to the fact that WH lack the ranged AT support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltnot Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 but what is good in one scenario is bad in another. in KP missions you pay dearly for this, unless your group is using the ard boyz kill points rules which are much more fair for everyone. Much less than you'd think actually. The guardsmen reside at your rear, the sisters at the front. If the enemy has blown through your battle line of sisters, than you've probably already lost. Out of about a dozen games of 5th, I usually only lose a single squad if that. I've had them wiped out once (in 4th) and taken down to two models once in 5th (a Monoltih was deepstruck in front of them and they were assaulted by two Necron Lords. They still held the objective and won me the game). I'm currently considering if I can squeeze in an extra squad into my current build for extra survivability. Another bonus is versus a deepstriking opponent, they can be spread out around my exorcists to reduce the likelyhood of deepstrike suicide missions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Fox Posted October 17, 2008 Share Posted October 17, 2008 I've said it before and I'll say it again... never underestimate the flashlight. Individually they stink, put them in a group of 20 to 50 of them, add bayonets and some guts behind them, and they'll constantly surprise you. There is a lot of strength in the numbers of the guard if used well and supported by the rest of your army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangeltoft Posted October 18, 2008 Share Posted October 18, 2008 Sorry if im going completly off topic, but i have a quick qeustion about inducting guardsmen. Can i have inducted guardsmen and still take allies from the DH dex`? Now, abit more on topic. As i have mainly played Radical DH since the release of the DH dex, i would say that guardsmen are a great addition to the inquisition, both DH and WH. they give you the heavy weapons you dont normally have aswell as a few more bodies on the table Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charred Heretic Posted October 19, 2008 Share Posted October 19, 2008 Can i have inducted guardsmen and still take allies from the DH dex`? Assuming you are referring to a WH parent army, yes. The first printing of the DH Codex has been changed, clarifying the answer to your question. (These codex "edition releases" are usually unannounced, and are a problem.) Be cognizant of the fact that Inquisitor requirements are "discreet" by codex, meaning that an Inq from one book may not "unlock" a choice in another book. It should not be much of an issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaZ Posted October 20, 2008 Author Share Posted October 20, 2008 well frankly, if I were to take an inquisitor it would be a DH inquisitor. why? better wargear and ability to take a land raider if I felt such a thing was needed in a WH list why exactly can inducted guard not use doctrines? seems like a wierd thing to me. NaZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltnot Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 well frankly, if I were to take an inquisitor it would be a DH inquisitor. why? better wargear and ability to take a land raider if I felt such a thing was needed in a WH list why exactly can inducted guard not use doctrines? seems like a wierd thing to me. NaZ Firstly, a Witch Hunter Inquisitor can take a Land Raider. Secondly, the trait system listed in the imperial guard codex can only be applied when actually using that army since they are army wide traits. We may use the units, but we cannot get access to the traits listed in the IG Codex. From a fluff point of view, this makes a certain amount of sense since the Imperial Guard Units cannot operate as fluidly as they normally might be able to since the person commanding them is not familiar with how they work quite as finely, nor know exactly what they are capable of. From a rules point of view, it means that GW doesn't have to worry about weird loopholes or abusive power plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahansral Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I'm a newbie regarding guard, so perhaps you can answer my question: How many scoring units does a Infantry platoon have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltnot Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 The command squad and each of the regular squads is each a scoring unit. So each guard platoon will have between 3-6 scoring units (Command squad + 2-5 squads). Kill point wise, each of the squads is worth a single kill point, and the command squads is worth two (One kill point for the Officer because he is an independent character, and another for the rest of his command squad). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahansral Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Ah thanks, Eltnot. The platoon is getting more intresting each minute. Btw, do you give the squads any additional wargear (besides three missile launchers)? How do you deal with their low leadership? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 In high level games, I have something like this planned. Platoon 1 Command: Mortar Infantry: Lascannon Infantry: Lascannon Infantry: Heavy Bolter Infantry: Heavy Bolter Platoon 2 Command: Mortar Infantry: Lascannon Infantry: Lascannon Infantry: Heavy Bolter Infantry: Heavy Bolter A Canoness attatched to one of the more central infantry squads in each platoon, to protect her and provide them with Stubborn at Ld10. Then some mechanized HF/Melta Sisters squads, three autocannon sentinels (scout for rear shots!), a Leman Russ,a nd two Exorcists. The infantry platoons stay back at closer objectives, while the sisters and tanks (exos and russ) go out on the offensive. tHe full list is in the Armies of the Imperium army list forum. The theory is sound, but I need to test it out. (One kill point for the Officer because he is an independent character, and another for the rest of his command squad). No. It is one-- the Officer and his Retinue, count as one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senseilord Ashahara Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I'm a proud and unapologetic user of the Guard, inducted into the service of the Ordo Hereticus and equp them more or less the same as I do when using them as a stand alone force ( Epsillon XXIII Penal Legion ) - misile launchers (the odd las cannon here and there) and flamers or Grenade Launchers. This adds some useful anti armour power to the force, which I feel a Non Sisters army lacks, and more warm bodies with lukewarm lasers to plink away ineffectually at the Astartes I ususally end up facing. Adding a Vet Sgt helps alittle with leadership, as does a Major (snr Officer) with vox. On the other hand, Guardsmen are the cattle of the Imperial forces and I tend to use them as expendable units (priests help here) who might get hold of an objective now and then. Storm Trooper squads with Grenade laucher/melta and flamers (ususally mounted in a chimera) make up the workhorse, pointscoring section of my taskforce. Why not use SoBs? Really and truly because I find them asethically displeasing and they don't fit into the feel of my army. But then I'm a sucker for handicapping myself in the name of Fluff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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