Argonauts?

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I was thinking just now that perhaps I could make a chapter based on the classical myth of Jason and the Argonauts.

This chapter would search for lost relics. Dark age of technology artifacts, weapons weilded by heroes of the Great Crusade. Even STC templates and such, the state of Imperial Technology being what it is makes STC information akin to an ancient artifact or relic of some sort.

They would embark upon crusades simply on the rumour of a relic being present in any given location. Perhaps they see the recovery of lost weapons and mythic pieces of technology as a way to save the flagging Imperium. I also see it as a way to have them be mildly altruistic, fighting for relics that they then turn over to their rightful owners. For example if they found a relic of a Blood Angels champions from the Great Crusade, they would subsequently turn over the relic to said chapter. They take pride in the discovery and subsequent recovery of such priceless artifacts.

Did a bit of tooling around with the painter for a colour scheme, and a few experiments with symbols. I thought that in the theme of the Argo and its crew of individual heroes and warriors that each marine would wear a tabard with the symbols of his company, squad and his own personal heraldry. Keep in mind these are all prototypes and draft ideas, I don't have photoshop so nothing will look halfway as spectacular as some others.

First is a regular tactical marine, plain tabard, no heraldry. The other marine is a tactical squad Veteran Sergent with prototye heraldry. The rather haphazard combination of the Raven Guard and Ultramarine symbol on the marines right shoulder is as close as I could get to a version of the chapter symbol I wanted. They are a UM successor and I was simply tying them to their progenitor. I didn't choose the 'Golden Fleece' or any other kind of greek symbology because I wanted, as stated above, a visible link to the parent.

Also the colour scheme is based loosely around Jasons armour from the older stop-motion movie 'Jason and the Argonauts'. (I cant remember the exact year of its creation)

This is as close as I could get without photoshop and/or any more suitable images to combine. The Raven is firstly supposed to be gripping the Ultra-symbol in a sign of possession, as if it is claiming it. The raven, secondly, is supposed to be white as before it was turned black for being the bearer of bad news, again playing to their altruism of bringing their relics back to their rightful owners.

In nearly all cultures, the raven or crow was originally white. In one of the Greek tales, Coronis, the daughter of Phlegyes was pregnant by Apollo. Apollo left a white crow (or raven) to watch over her, but, just before the birth, Coronis married Ischys. The crow informed Apollo of this, and Apollo was not impressed. He killed Coronis and Ischys, and turned the crow black for being the bearer of bad news. Luckily, Apollo retrieved the unborn child at the funeral, for the child became Aesclepius, the father of medicine.

I decided to base the (idea of the) chapter around the Argonauts firstly because the older movie with the stop-motion special effects in it was one of my most loved movies as a youngster. Secondly because while the Ultramarines are more of a roman or general 'classical' angle, this is more greek. Also the Argonauts were not your typical Hoplite military force because they were individual warriors and as such, can escape the 'sheild and spear' image that a lot of people associate exclusively with greek themed chapters.

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Anyway I posted this up really to try and gain some perspective from other Liber-ites. As much as I like the idea, it may not really work too well and that is what I am trying to find out.

Cheers.

[Codex Grey]

Relic Hunters are not uncommon, but a chapter that seek out relics of other Chapters as well and then returns them to their rightful owners is new and something i kinda like. I'm interested in seeing how you explain in a bit more detail why they do this. I can see them having very good relationships with other Chapters, and maybe sometimes get weapons, gadgets and stuff in return for their deeds, almost like an exchange of gifts between the Chapters.

 

What about homeworld? Being relic hunters they would benefit from being fleet based, able to follow up on any rumor.

 

Nice color scheme, too.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Hey thanks Grey! Nice to know my new chapter has a fan. ^_^

 

What about homeworld? Being relic hunters they would benefit from being fleet based, able to follow up on any rumor.

 

Well this is something I was thinking on recently. If they had a homeworld and chapter fortress they would have a place to rest, to hang their recovered relics that wasn't at quite as constantly at risk as a ship. Malfunctions, getting lost in the warp, being spat out of the warp at a really really bad time, lost in an ambush, et-cetera et-cetera. Not only the risk though, the culture and environment of a homeworld and home-system can be great influences on a chapters personality.

However the benefit of a fleet based chapter means they are not tied to any one place and can more easily bring more warfighters to bear at any one time according to their goals. It's a little bit of a dilemma and a bit of advice would not go astray.

 

I'm interested in seeing how you explain in a bit more detail why they do this.

 

Perhaps its something to do with the gathering of shiney objects. :lol:

 

Honestly there are many reasons for them to do this. Firstly the fact that their collective personality revolves around the gathering of relics as they see the Imperium flagging and its almost constant incremental decline since the days of the Great Crusade, and who can say for the Dark Age of Technology, though they see it with more optimism than most Imperial Scholars would. They look to the past in order to rescue the Imperiums future. I'm thinking that they might even envision the return of the lost Primarchs once their relics are returned, as is the legend of Vulkan of the Salamanders. Perhaps they, from past experiences I would have to expand on, have had first hand encounters with such pieces of the Imperiums history and their superiority and effectiveness against the multitudes of enemies that now bear down upon it.

 

This could range from the activation of a beyond-ancient and long forgotten planetary defence array on a relatively unknown planet, the discovery of such a mighty relic would be something they could definetly celebrate. Recovering the lost hulls of ships that had impacted on planets. Perhaps even performing lightning strikes out on the fringes of Imperial territory to recover weapons and vehicles from long dead battlefields, from wars fought when the Imperiums borders had not ben reduced.

 

Maybe even, though perhaps a little extreme, a crusade into the Eye of Terror itself on the word of rumour of a piece of a Primarchs armour or lost Crusade era heroes weapon. This actually sounds good as I'm writing it, as every chapter needs a good defeat to give them a bit of humility this sounds quite a likely cause.

 

-

 

Hm I just answered your questions backwards. Odd perhaps but it turned out ok. It might be a bit thin for now but I think as I write, so naturally the more I write about them and have questions asked about them the more I will come up with parts of their personality and history.

 

Thanks for the questions Grey. :lol:

[Roachboy]

i reckon this is a pretty cool idea youre onto with this chapter.

 

for your homeworld dilemma how about giving them a base of operations somewhere fairly central, and have a specific company that roams the galaxy on its own ship to find the relics they're after? that way the rest of the chapters ambition is to earn the right to join this company.

 

maybe.... :)

[Utsujin]

I actually like the idea alot. Instead of the mindless killing most marines do, they have to be investigators per say and I find that idea quit superb. I thought at first the inquisition would do such things, but I don't think they care about space marines' chapters' relics or the like. Maybe we could intertwin your fluff, with my fluff for my DIY chapter?

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Thank you for all the kind comments. I think this is the most liked chapter idea I've ever had! -_-

 

Maybe we could intertwin your fluff, with my fluff for my DIY chapter?

 

Perhaps. I've had trouble in the past trying to tie two sets of fluff together. It can be done however, but we'll see.

 

In any case I now have the drive to think up some more about these guys. After I get some sleep that is. 4:12 am is not the best time to try to come up with coherant fluff, let alone grammar or sentences.

[The Dean]

i reckon this is a pretty cool idea youre onto with this chapter.

 

for your homeworld dilemma how about giving them a base of operations somewhere fairly central, and have a specific company that roams the galaxy on its own ship to find the relics they're after? that way the rest of the chapters ambition is to earn the right to join this company.

 

maybe.... :)

 

I really like this idea. Neatly folds both approaches together without much of a stretch. You could expand that even up to the 4 Line-Companies, assuming you want them to stay Codex-Organized, with the reserve-Companies remaining as Homeworld defense or to fight local threads, e.g. nearby Ork-Empires...

[XKhalilX]

agreed, great concept. You could have a squad or two of the relic being discovered to tag along. For example, say rumor of a Blood Angels relic, a squad or two of Blood Angels with a captain or chaplain could accompany your chapter.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Hmm. These ideas are very good, thank you. I think something akin to having a company dedicated to the search for and recovery of any relics. They are not centralised and are split up between various strike/search groups. If they need reinforcement they can always call on the rest of the chapter, or even the reserve companies to help them recover something that is being guarded or the route is blocked by enemies.

 

I would say that the chapter fights a very quick and efficient war, the quicker a conflict is over the less lives are lost and the quicker they can get back to searching for relics. I think the searching company would constantly be on the prowl, following up old legends and rumours across the Imperium and beyond. They are the seekers I suppose and battle brothers are continuously rotated out of the company and back into the battle companies. However some marines who are especially good at investigating would be rotated out less an less often, perhaps even leading to a permanent position. The rest of the chapter would therefore still have investigative minds to search for anything that the rest of the companies may come across during their regular activities.

 

I was thinking that the Librarians would be a large part of the investigations since they can access the warp to aid them. Read peoples minds, or scare the living wits out of them for a start. There are probably other ways they can read the warp to help them, but that was my first thought.

[Wolfbiter]

I really like your idea, Grey Hunter, plus I like the way you tie them in to Jason and the Argonauts. It's nice to see a Chapter with a more uplifting theme as opposed to a grim one. (Not that there's anything wrong with grim...it's just refreshing, that's all.) And I approve of Ray Harryhausen homages. <_<

 

Couple of things I'd be interested in seeing after reading your initial draft:

 

1) Are the Argonauts follower of the Cult Mechanicus, or do they follow a different system of beliefs when it comes to lost technology? Your premise sets up some really interesting potential...I could see the Argonauts as being hailed as honored brothers by Chapters like the Ultramarines and Praetors of Orpheus, and really, really hated by secretive Chapters like the Iron Hands.

 

2) How would the Argonauts react if they were searching an area for relics and they ran into other Marine artifact hunters, like Vulkan He'Stan? Would they work with the other Chapter, or is there potential for conflict? What about encounters with Mechanicus Explorator teams?

 

3) How do they view Xenos tech? Do they see races like the Tau and Necrons as abominations, or examples of interesting items they'd like to acquire?

 

4) Were they created with a specific mandate to find lost artifacts, or did they adopt it on their own, a la the Relictors?

 

I think you're off to a really good start, and I look forward to reading more!

 

P.S. I think it would be cool if each company was named after a notable Argonaut: 'Iason', 'Herakles,' 'Orpheus' for example. Just a thought.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Thanks for the questions. :rolleyes:

 

1) Are the Argonauts follower of the Cult Mechanicus, or do they follow a different system of beliefs when it comes to lost technology? Your premise sets up some really interesting potential...I could see the Argonauts as being hailed as honored brothers by Chapters like the Ultramarines and Praetors of Orpheus, and really, really hated by secretive Chapters like the Iron Hands.

 

This is something I havent pinned down, especially as your question has since made me rethink what I had. Well I must say that the relationships between certain chapters is something I have thought about and it is very similar to what you put, but I'll expand on that in another question below.

 

Really with the Mechanicus I am relatively unsure. I think that the recovery of technological artifacts would agree with the Mechanicus, especially as the Argonauts would seldom lay sole claim to anything they discover. Perhaps though with something that could potentially seriously benefit the chapter the council of officers would convene to decide whether to lay claim to the piece or contest a decision by the AdMech.

 

With more sentimental artifacts such as you find in Space Marine chapters they would be more inclined to simply turn them over to the chapter that it originally hailed from. Though there would be cases of some artifacts either be given back to the Argonauts (the name seems to have stuck :D) or to one of their successor chapters in the case of an older or founding legion.

 

I can see how their ideals would conflict heavily with chapters like the Dark Angels and Iron Hands and to be honest, I like a good rivalry between chapters and since I'm not particuarly fond of either of these two, it's looking even better by the moment. ;)

 

2) How would the Argonauts react if they were searching an area for relics and they ran into other Marine artifact hunters, like Vulkan He'Stan? Would they work with the other Chapter, or is there potential for conflict? What about encounters with Mechanicus Explorator teams?

 

Well since the Argonauts rarely (as stated above) lay claim to the artifacts they find they would be more than happy to work with another chapter to help them find what they were looking for. In fact He'Stan is a character in particular I was going to include just as a fluffy reference to a search conducted between the two chapters.

 

With the AdMech in general I can't see them being particuarly close, given what would be to the Magos of the Cult to be rather erratic behaviour over their claimance to an artifact. While they would welcome any help from the Argonauts when it was needed, otherwise I doubt they would go out of their way to include them in any of their proceedings.

 

3) How do they view Xenos tech? Do they see races like the Tau and Necrons as abominations, or examples of interesting items they'd like to acquire?

 

This was one of the reasons I confined them to searching for Imperial artifacts. They view xenos as xenos. I wanted to keep away from the complications of Xenos artifacts and tech, though they would certainly comply with the Ordo Xenos and I am planning to have them involved in the Death Watch they would not go out collecting alien relics no.

 

They believe that the future of the Imperium lies in its often shrouded past. Mostly of the (sanctified) holy lost artifacts and technology that was scattered all over the galaxy by the end of the Heresy.

 

4) Were they created with a specific mandate to find lost artifacts, or did they adopt it on their own, a la the Relictors?

 

Think more relictors, they adapted this view and modus operandi on their own. Even though they are an UM successor, I liken them more to the Salamanders with their more compassionate and altruistic side.

 

Thanks for all that Wolfbiter, and I also think naming the companies after the heroes of the Argonauts would be a good idea. Thanks!

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted Today, 11:25 AM

Perhaps though with something that could potentially seriously benefit the chapter the council of officers would convene to decide whether to lay claim to the piece or contest a decision by the AdMech

 

I'd change that to "tell the AdMech" about the tech they've discovered. The AdMech would not be above 'losing' your geneseed tithes and then telling the Inquisition you didn't deliver the tithe, so you could be excommunicated and they could get their hands on that functioning STC you picked up earlier. Those Magos turn into crazed maniacs whenever you say "functioning STC". :rolleyes:

[The Dean]

Agreed.

While The Admech would take great pains to get their hand (mechandrites??) on STC-Tech, I doubt that they would be overly interested in the more "sentimental", as you put it, Relics, like maybe a long lost weapon or suit of armour.

So you could, given the altruistic nature you seem to be going for, tell the Admech of most if not all the discoveries.

The AdMech is also known to be rewarding towards chapters that can be seen to futher the cause of the Omnissiah, so there would be some benefits for your chapter as well.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Yes, this is true. All good stuff here. I might have to actually write something concrete sometime very soon. :angry:

 

I was thinking of having some extra markings on some of the more powerful weapons and armour used by the chapter. Inscriptions from the parent chapter for example. A Redeemer or Prometheus Land Raider inscribed with Salamanders iconography, relic blades (of which I am geussing there will be more than your average chapter) inscribed with Blood Angel or Ultramarine script and catachisms.

 

I am not sure how common such things would be but I can geuss not overly common, usually carried by the chapters officers or some sargents from crusades with other chapters that were specifically awarded for their valour or help with a chapters own problems or recovery of their relics.

 

I would expect more from the Salamanders overall, as they are the most active chapter searching for their primarchs relics, and it is their chapter that believes that he (Vulkan) will return once they have gathered them all. I would also expect the Space Wolves to come a close second, running with the Ultramarines and Blood Angels. Perhaps others, though I need more suggestions for these.

 

Thanks again for the critiques!

 

*edit* I would also be very grateful for any photoshop wizardry anyone could pull off on my chapters behalf as I unfortunately dont own the software. Gimp being forthcoming and a measure more confusing.

[Codex Grey]

I'm really liking the feel of the Chapter so far, Ydalir.

 

I can see one of the high ranking officers of the Chapter weilding an Axe of Ultramar, gifted to him by the Ultramarines for something nice he did. :angry:

 

While the name is cool, I would personally try to tone down the obvious source of inspiration. So while you could keep the name, would personally drop naming the companies after the heroes of the Argonauts. Just my oppinion though.

 

Keep going!

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Yes I was originally going to name them something else, though just what that would be is a conundrum unto itself.

 

I am going to have a Strike Cruiser, an old Salamander-produced Strike Cruiser called the Argo though. That cruiser will contain the investigators. Though the naming of the companies after the Heroes would be cool, there were reportedly up to 55 named crewmembers of the Argo, which is far too many companies. Perhaps just the most famous ones then, thats something I have to think on.

 

I'm really liking the feel of the Chapter so far, Ydalir.

 

Thanks Grey, I feel all warm and fuzzy inside. :tu:

 

Joking aside I appreciate the kind words everyone has given.

 

Cheers!

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted Today, 02:07 PM

I am going to have a Strike Cruiser, an old Salamander-produced Strike Cruiser called the Argo though.

 

If its the centre of your fleet/home to all the relics they've got, why not make it a Battle Barge?

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Simply put a Strike Cruiser is lower profile which for an investigative/elite wing is better. It is faster and you are not splitting the chapters resources too much. A Battle Barge is only required when a large force needs both transportation and protection, the vast majority of Astartes fleets are made up of Strike Cruisers which are potent vessels in their own right. With the Investigative wing of the chapter only being the size of a company, plus a few Librarium acolytes and epistolaries, using a Battle Barge for such a small force would be a misuse of the chapters relatively finite resources.

 

Not only that but the Argo itself was not built as a 'ship of the line'. It was meant to be a fast, durable transport for Jason and his crew. Another factor is that with only 45-55 named members (assuming that was the maximum) of the crew it was not a particuarly large ship. A Trireme of the time (being a front line ship) had double that simply a oarsmen if my memory serves.

[The Dean]

While naming companies after the more known heroes on the Argo is maybe a bit too obvious, I still like it a lot.

Or maybe, you could go IronSnakes and name a few Squads after the heroes. Even more Obvios if you have a mythical Captain or sargeant from their founding days called Jason or Herakles, but, you know... still coool... at least in my humble opinion... :tu:

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Thanks Dean, I know what you mean. :tu:

 

Frankly though I haven't pinned down a founding yet, their age is still elusive to me. I don't want them to be spring chickens of the Astartes in that they were only recently founded, though if I make them too old their omission from canon history for what they do over the last Emperor-knows how many years is a bit odd.

 

With the hero names it might be better to name ships after some of the heroes, and some of the chapters own heroes after others. The names can be spread around, they dont need to be isolated to one group or another. This is the 41st millenium and the meanings for a lot of words or associations between them have been lost long ago, so it doesent need to stick too closely to what we think of as normal.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I am writing the origins section at the moment but have come up against some annoying sticking points. The most obvious and distressing of which is that they are, as yet, unnamed. I am almost totally blank.

 

The only things I have come up with so far are:

 

Reclaimers which is too much like the Relictors and the Argonauts which is a direct rip off and its just not right.

 

Any ideas or suggestions would be helpful.

 

My other main problem at the moment is that I don't have a location for their homeworld. The problem is that their predisposition towards relics and their classical-greco culture can land them virtually anywhere in the Imperium. Again any suggestions would be helpful.

 

-

 

Part of their origins are of their arrival at their homeworld. The world had been rumoured to possess a relic dating from before the Great Crusade but had been lost since the heresy and the planet had fallen through the cracks in Imperial beauocacy until recently. The chapters first assignment was to bring the world, system and entire subsector as far as had been forgotten back into the fold. The world had devolved back to a 'classical' era. Yes they are greek warriors and such, I am a fan of the Hoplite and the classical era so that is how they will stay.

 

However before they got there a force of renegades and mercenaries had landed on the (again unnamed) world having also heard of the relic. They proceeded to butcher the planets native warriors in the first few battles against them as they landed. The native generals retreated to their cities and fortified themselves. Unfortunately the renegaes technological superiority allowed them to sack three cities in two months with minimal losses. They did not however find the relic or evidence of its existance at all. After six months the renegades had expended half of their total munitions. The Mercenaries they had hired on were pragmatic and decided to cut their losses and departed, effectively reducing the invaders forces by one third and their total supplies by half.

 

As time ground onwards the renegade commander grew unbalanced, assuring his less fanatical followers that the relic was there and that they would be rich beyond imagining once they found it. By this time the renegades had depleted much of their weapons stores and losses were beginning to mount. Warriors from the mountain towns and villages had begun to arrive to reinforce their cities when the mercenaries left. Unfortunately with every battle no matter how many invaders killed, their losses were usually horrendus by comparrison.

 

The (chapter) arrived at the beginning of the season of storms for the main continent (where the action was taking place). Catching the invaders rag-tag floatilla of civillian liners and retrofitted freighters in orbit, obliterating them as they tried to flee, the lack of Imperial markings or communications giving them away. Making planetfall the marines of (the chapter) brought the renegades to battle, though by this time they had established themselves. The original generals son having taken his place, a new generation of forced conscripts filling the ranks. Many ran though none managed to escape in the end. The (chapter) pushed them quickly back into the mountains and ruined cities, cutting them down to a man. As the generals son was cornered he raved maniacally of the relic they were to retrieve before he was executed by Sargent (name).

 

The natives hailed the marines as heroes and celebrated their arrival and the long awaited destruction of the invaders who had become a generations old enemy by that time.

 

This is going on a bit long so I'll shorten it up suitably.

 

The chapter finds a relic from an Ultramarines hero from the Great Crusade. They attempt to return the relic to the Ultramarines themselves. Marneus Calgar is impressed with their honourable conduct and instead insist that they keep it. This, along with the next generation of recruits from the planet whos culture places great value on the relics and artifacts of their Crusade era heritage (meaning lots of discarded/damaged equipment, from bolters to shoulder pauldrons, but nothing too valuable) gives them their love for relics.

 

-

 

Keep in mind this is an extremely rough draft and is even less finished so dont dig into the minor aspects of it too much if you can help it, I do know there are a fair few holes in it but at this point all I really need to know are a few things.

 

1) Is it believable on the whole? I want to avoid cliches such as Chaos Warbands (though that would be much simpler to use) and aliens.

 

2) Specifically, I know there are problems with a simple human renegade but I cannot believe that they do not exist. There will be shades of grey between Loyalist and Chaos cultist and I thought to use a simple renegade aggressively for once to be something new. Does it work for anyone else?

 

3) Given the angle of the story, would this predispose the world to be in any specific area of the Imperium?

 

4) First I was going to use the private forces of a less than ethical rogue-trader, intending to sell the relic or use it for leverage against an individual or Imperial organisation. Would that work better?

 

At this point I dont want to run with a story that when I finish it, I realise that it doesent actually work. Any redirecting or adjusting should be done now before more details are added otherwise it can get very frustrating to alter, something that happened with the last chapter I worked on.

 

Oh and if your looking for a quick starmap of the Imperium, there's one in my sig. :blush:

 

Thoughts?

[Codex Grey]

1) I think it's believable. The biggest problem I have with many DIYs is that I just can't see them existing in the 40k universe, at least not in my version of it, either because they try to be too awsome or some things just doesn't make sence. What you have here is IMO, while short and rough, very believable and balanced.

 

2) Go with the renegades. I think it's a cool and underused idea, just make it believable. Create a story around these renegades; Who are they? Where did they come from? How did they hear about this rumor?(this question is something you really need to make believable. How can a group of human renegades hear about a millenia old rumor?)

 

3) No idea. Somehow the center of the galaxy seems right to me, or somewere near Ultramar.

 

Those are at least my opinions. And I also have a suggestion. When I read about the homeworld I remembered something from when I tried(failed) to flesh out the Sons of Antaeus. I was going to theme them towards greek mythology and I had the idea of wrestling. The Imperial Fists have honor duals with swords, the Argo...something have wrestling; As both physical training and a way to settle feuds. It doesn't get more greek then wrestling :)

[Wolfbiter]

A couple of alternate name ideas:

 

Venturers?

 

Sons of Argo?

 

Voyagers?

 

Athenians? (Since Athens was a center of Greek culture and learning.)

[The Dean]

A internet recherche yielded this for the Greek translation of "relic":

 

λείψανο

 

Wich is in latin characters:

 

leipsano

 

Wich, I think, would make a neat name for your Home-Planet and/or your chapter. :D

[Utsujin]

I think Voyagers would be an excellent name for them.