sofewbullets Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 :) can a unit that has chosen a dedicated transport like a squad of marines with a rhino start in a heavy choice like a land raider . I need to know for the rapid fire tourny in stirling ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Gothard Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Now, I cannot support this from the rules (because I just looked quickly and I cannot find what I was looking for), but I believe that you cannot do this. The unit must deploy WITH its transport, but does not have to deploy WITHIN its transport. However, I believe the choice to deploy within a transport only applies to dedicated transports, but, as I said, I cannot support this from the rules. So until someone comes around and proves or disproves, I would not bank on that strategy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sofewbullets Posted October 21, 2008 Author Share Posted October 21, 2008 well ! There seems to be no reason in the rules that you cant so far ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 as I understand it, a unit can deploy within A transport or its own dedicated transport. there's no rule I know of to force a unit to deploy embarked in its own transport or NO transport... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trekari Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Pages 66 and 67 of the BRB has your answer. You may only voluntarily embark during your movement phase, thus you cannot begin the game inside a regular transport. Page 67 however gives an exception to this for Dedicated Transports, allowing the unit they were purchased for to begin the game deployed inside of it. As usual, GW saw fit to also include a statement in the BRB that COULD be interpreted to contradict 66+67, see page 94. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 WOW - missed that one. so no beginning inside of a non-dedicated transport - good lookin' out, Trekari. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordekiem Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 BZZZTTTT!!! Oh thanks for playing people. ^_^ BTW, if you are not sure I'd suggest reading the rulebook before posting. Don't post just to post and then have to withdraw your statement later. As to the original question, Yes, You can indeed put your unit into the land raider. Pg 66 only refers to embarking or disembarking during the game itself. Pg 67 has the rules for dedicated transports. The ONLY difference between a dedicated and non-dedicated is who can start out inside them at the begining of the game during deployment Dedicated can only have the unit they were bought with and non-dedicated can have any unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 that's intuitive and sounds right and all that. But where is it stated that you may start inside of a non-dedicated transport? I believed that myself, and searched like mad last night after Trekari posted, and couldn't find it. I'd love for you for you to prove me wrong. obviously, there's a lot about pgs 66-67 that has nothing to do with deployment, so I looked in the deployment rules of the missions section and found nothing permitting or restricting the act. as it is not explicitly permitted, doesn't THAT make it NOT permitted? so goes the ol' permissive ruleset yarn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sofewbullets Posted October 22, 2008 Author Share Posted October 22, 2008 so .. We still dont have any real rule cool refrance either way ! Would think that this would be covered in the book , but at least its not just me who cant find it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trekari Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 BZZZTTTT!!! Oh thanks for playing people. :P BTW, if you are not sure I'd suggest reading the rulebook before posting. Don't post just to post and then have to withdraw your statement later. As to the original question, Yes, You can indeed put your unit into the land raider. Pg 66 only refers to embarking or disembarking during the game itself. Pg 67 has the rules for dedicated transports. The ONLY difference between a dedicated and non-dedicated is who can start out inside them at the begining of the game during deployment Dedicated can only have the unit they were bought with and non-dedicated can have any unit. I did read the rulebook before posting. Page 66 refers to the exact rules about embarking (a necessary step if you want to be EMBARKED within a transport of any kind). You may only enter a transport during the movement phase. Period, full stop. Page 67 gives ONE exception for this with dedicated transports. It does NOT give an exception for normal transports to carry anything they want while being deployed. Therefore the only WRITTEN rule relevant to this situation falls back to page 66. I'd love to have GW say otherwise and clear this up, as Deathwing doesn't have a dedicated transport for terminators. Until then however, RAW says NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angronn Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 As far as I can see, Mordekiem is correct. The Dedicated Transport box on p.67 says that is can only carry the unit it was bought for when deployed, but makes no mention of whether that unit can be embarked in something else at deployment rather than the dedicated transport. I don't think the Embarking and Disembarking rules are in force, as they apply to the game turn and its phases, which aren't in effect at deployment. P.92 states that at deployment you should make clear which squads are embarked in which transport vehicle Note that it says "which transport vehicle", not "their transport vehicle". Finally, p.94, speaking specifically about reserve but in the absence of clear ruling elsewhere seeming to generalise to all situations, states again that the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units It goes on to note that the transport vehicle should be deployed (or be in reserve and arrive with) with the unit it was bought for), whether empty or not. This, though not conclusive, seems to suggest by the broad language that non-dedicated transports can have infantry units inside when deployed. Furthermore, in the absence of any RAW to the contrary it would seem that infantry units with dedicated transports could begin the game in non-dedicated transports instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 suggestions, and "understanding" abound. this is going to be one of those things that we all "know" much like using an upgrade (i.e. sgt) character's leadership for the whole squad in the last edition. I would never enforce the "no rule for it" thing in my group, because it seems counter intuitive and simply overlooked but: the quote from P. 94 only represents reserves. P. 92 "a note on secrecy" has further suggestions, but no hard and fast rule allowing units to deploy embarked in a regular transport vehicle. P. 66 doesn't seem all that relevant because it is "in game" rather than "pre-game" if you will. P. 67 DOES specifically state that a ded trans can begin with it's owning unit inside only. so there is a relevant rule for deployment. there are also heavy suggestions but nothing approaching explicit allowance for deploying in non-dedicated transports. I hope GW FAQs this. I hope Trekari is wrong, and I'm a dolt for agreeing with him. but in a proper RAW environment (tournament), there is no rule allowing a unit to begin the game deployed in a non-ded transport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trekari Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I want to re-iterate that I ALSO hope I'm wrong. I would much prefer GW to have a nice, concise, consistent ruleset that makes the game fun while also making sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawks Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 the 5th ed. honeymoon is over. VERY much so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordekiem Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 As far as I can see, Mordekiem is correct. The Dedicated Transport box on p.67 says that is can only carry the unit it was bought for when deployed, but makes no mention of whether that unit can be embarked in something else at deployment rather than the dedicated transport. I don't think the Embarking and Disembarking rules are in force, as they apply to the game turn and its phases, which aren't in effect at deployment. P.92 states that at deployment you should make clear which squads are embarked in which transport vehicle Note that it says "which transport vehicle", not "their transport vehicle". Finally, p.94, speaking specifically about reserve but in the absence of clear ruling elsewhere seeming to generalise to all situations, states again that the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units It goes on to note that the transport vehicle should be deployed (or be in reserve and arrive with) with the unit it was bought for), whether empty or not. This, though not conclusive, seems to suggest by the broad language that non-dedicated transports can have infantry units inside when deployed. Furthermore, in the absence of any RAW to the contrary it would seem that infantry units with dedicated transports could begin the game in non-dedicated transports instead. Angronn put it very succintly. But I'd also like to add... pg 67 talks about dedicated transports and who can ride in them. If the rulebook needs to clarify that only the unit it was bought with can ride in it then that implies that non-dedicated transports can carry anyone. Otherwise why would they even mention this and compare it directly with non-dedicated transports? It also mentions that ICs can be deployed into that vehicle and implies by such that ICs can be deployed into other vehicles as well. If the true difference between dedicated and non-dedicated transports was they could start with a unit in them I think they would've said that instead of what they did. No, the rulebook does not explicitly say you can deploy into a transport, but there are alot of implications that you can. And really nothing implying that you cannot other than those who have already twisted things around quite a bit. Take all the rules in their entirety and I think it is pretty clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexx Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Actually all Angronn's argument suggests is that you CAN put a unit into a non dedicated transport- but that unit has to start in reserve. There is nothing in the rules that say a unit can start the game on the board in a transport. (Of course you'd have to be (imho) a complete ass to not let someone do this but... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angronn Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Actually all Angronn's argument suggests is that you CAN put a unit into a non dedicated transport- but that unit has to start in reserve. There is nothing in the rules that say a unit can start the game on the board in a transport. (Of course you'd have to be (imho) a complete ass to not let someone do this but... ) I agree that there is no definite and apparent ruling one way or another, but in the absence of that I think you have to look at the implication of rules relating to that situation, which I think clearly imply (not state) that a unit can start in a non-dedicated transport (I'm looking at p.92 particularly for this). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Gothard Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I hate reading over threads and seeing people make arguments from assumptions. In this case, half of you (Mord, Angronn, Trek) are assuming that you CAN deploy within a non-dedicated transport, and looking for justification within the rules. But there's no reason for you to assume this. Assume nothing, and read the rules. If the rules do not say you can, then you cannot. What do the rules say? 1. That you can deploy inside a dedicated transport. 2. That you should let your opponent know what units are deployed within what transports, including which units are with what transports if in reserve. 3. When transports and their units are deployed from reserve, they must be deployed together. 2 and 3 are subordinate to 1. That is, when you do 1, you must follow the rules for 2 and 3. Note that there is no 1b, or 4, that says you can deploy a unit within any transport. If Mord can lash me for not checking the rulebook before I post, then I lash him for making assumptions within his arguments. I would even admit that if the rules strongly implied that you could, we ought to say that we can. But the implications and suggestions that Angronn has mentioned are far too thin a reed on which to rest an argument (by the way, where does "too thin a reed" originate from?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angronn Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I can see what you're saying, Brother Gothard, but the section on p.67 on Dedicated Transports says this: The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit was selected with... Now, what is this a limitation in regard to? Transports, and specifically that subgroup, Dedicated Transports. I don't see how one can escape the implication that non-dedicated Transports are therefore unbound by said limitation. And if they aren't bound by a limitation of who they can carry at deployment... then they can carry anyone! I can hear your shrieking all the way over here (and in the future, too!) about assumptions, and I'll grant you that it's a rickety structure I just built. Note however that all mentions of deploying transport vehicles on p.92 and p.94 are general statements, and not written as specific to dedicated transports. I'm trying to see the correct rule here, rather than justifying an assumption, but I think there is scant ground for coming to either conclusion. Personally I'd play it as I've suggested, but I wouldn't be worried if my opponent ardently desired to do it otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcaller3801 Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I have to go with Angronn, Mord, and Trek on this one, for the same reason that I took my position on the multiple unit assault rule. Let's look at the dedicated transport section. The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters). Now this sentence establishes two things: 1. A dedicated transport at deployment can only carry the unit it was selected with 2. This is a limitation This is very important. Why? Because if only dedicated transports could carry units, it wouldn't be a limitation- it would be an advantage. The units with dedicated transports would be sitting around going, "Nyeah nyeah- we get to start off in a transport, you have to get on the bus." But it is a limitation. So what about if only dedicated transports could carry any unit at start, but this winnows it down? That doesn't make much sense either- that still wouldn't be a limitation, it would be an advantage, because you'd still have the fact that only dedicated transports could start off carrying units. The only way that that starting off with the units inside the dedicated transport can count as a limitation is if all non-dedicated transports can carry whomever they wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angronn Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Well put, Stormcaller. I found that easier to understand than my own post! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Gothard Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Yup, you've got me. That's a good reference, and one I guess I didn't see until now. What, indeed, IS implied by that 'limitation' phrase, if NOT that other transports can be deployed with any unit already embarked within them. I concede the issue and wont 'shriek' into this debate any more ... FOR NOW (dun dun DUUUUUUUUUUN). :) :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexx Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Errr... well I'm more of a whiner than a shrieker soo... Again- all the bit about a "dedicated transports limitations" is that when it deploys it can only carry the unit it was bought for. This still works with the idea that you can only deploy units in a transport from reserve.- Not on the table at the start of the game. All this being said though I think any normal person would agree that you're supposed to be able to deploy in transports at game start, although I'm sure someone will be by sooner or later with a " I went to this tournament and the guy said I couldn't..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcaller3801 Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 This still works with the idea that you can only deploy units in a transport from reserve.- Not on the table at the start of the game. I'd buy that if the section on dedicated transports was under the Reserves section, rather than the Transports section. The fact that it is under Transports and does not mention reserves suggests otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trekari Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 What other limitation could they be referencing, you ask? How about the idea that a dedicated transport CAN carry other units during the game. Dedicated: 2. set apart or reserved for a specific use or purpose: We don't need a computer but a dedicated word processor. If they hadn't put that the "only" limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters), then an opponent could very easily argue that once it's unit had disembarked, that transport could not go pick up or allow any other unit to embark into it, because it was DEDICATED to another unit. As for declaring which units are in what transports, how does that support an assumption where no RULE states you can ride in a non-dedicated transport? If I have 2 units of tac squads and a dev squad, along with a Rhino, Razorback with TLHB and Razorback with TLLC, the rules state I have to let my opponent know which of those dedicated transports are carrying which squad. To be sure, the rules are entirely UNclear about what ruling is intended regarding this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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