I just lost about the worst I ever had to SM today

[ripath]

This is about the new SM dex destroying me today.

My opponents list

Captain with min ret and 2 storm shields

7 termies w/ 2 assault cannons

10 sternguard vets drop pod

10 tac marines plas cannon and plas

" "

Vindicator with chronus

Vindicator

 

My list

GM x4 terminators w/ 2 psycannons

Vindicare

INQ w/ bp/ccw

8 GKPA

""

7 IST w/ 2 plas

""

Land raider

TLLC/ML dread with smoke/extra armor

These were my only models because I'm used to playing 1k lists not 1.5 otherwise I would have included less terminators and more GK.

 

We were playing with no terrain to speed things up and we decided to just play a simple game of kill your opponent no missions. I deployed evenly in a line from left to right LR GKPA, IST, GKPA, IST w/ INQ, Dread. He deployed in a line on the opposite side with his command squad in a line covering everyone else and the vindicators on each side of his troops.

First turn he ran everyone up moving vindicators each up 12 popped smoke, and nothing was in range. My turn I shot at the apothecary in his command squad and missed, immobilized his vindicator without chronus. and moved up both squads of IST to act as meat shields.

second turn. he moved everything forward, rolled both his sternguard and termies in dropped his stern in front of my LR 20 ap3 shots killed my left GK squad. teleported in his termies right in front of my dreadnaught and killed my right squad of IST with the INQ. I shot at the sternguard with my plasma, killed 2. Moved my last GK squad towards the sternguard shot and killed 2. was out of range to assualt. I also destroyed the immobilized vindicator, and made the other one crew shaken

Third turn He moved everyone up, rapid fired the kraken rounds into my last IST squad killed them all. Termies killed all but 3 of my last GK squad. Vindicator destroys my dread. I roll in my terminators, teleport them near his termies, they scatter towards his oncoming waves of troops, killed one termy with shooting. assualt his sternguard squad with my GK and manage to kill them.

Fouth turn, he moves everything up again and shoots my terminators killing them (it took his entire army on field to kill them). At this point we had to go because the store was closing however it didn't bother me because he lost only 1 vindicator and his sterguard where I only had 5 GK, my LR, and the vindicare at the end.

Overall this game was horrible. the worst part about it though was that the rolls weren't that spectacular, and that it wasn't his armor that killed me but "elite" infantry that walked right over my GK and IST like they were nothing. I suppose that I should just take it in stride but the problem with that is that it wasn't just a fluke of luck or anything. the SM just killed everything, it almost makes me not want to pay GK anymore against SM.

[the jeske]

GK +no terrain = you lose . why didnt you use rhinos for the IST to block los ? and termis at 1k pts [GK or not] are overkill and bad .

[- 7eAL -]

Ruddy Sternguard. Practically need Terminators or vehicles with Ordnance templates to kill them.

[Ambro]

The new Space Marine codex is probably overpowered but I don't think that is why you lost so badly, the tactics you used were pretty bad and playing with no terrain is an even worse idea. The main thing I think you should have done differently is swapped your terminators DS for the PAGK, if you knew he had stern gaurd drop podding with 20 power armour killing shots as soon as they landed then you either needed to have the PAGK in heavy cover to get the cover saves or for them not to be on the table by deepstriking, if you did that then you could have used your GKT to soak up the fire whilst your storm troopers rapid fired 8 plasma shots a turn and then when your PAGK became available you could have used them tactically to destroy remaining squads and get into close combat where they'd have the advantage.

 

Also not sure if it was worth wasting points on that inquisitor just to get the vindicare even though it is fun to have an assassin. Although maybe not the best idea when you know your gonna be facing an overpowered space marine super list :). You didnt mention how he did though in your battle report?

[ripath]

I suppose at this point that I should re iterate that I fielded the models that I had at the moment. I was prepared for either a 1k game, or a combat patrol game in each I prefer to not use transports and instead bulk up on troops as much as possible. Normally I only run with 1 bc w/ psycannon as an HQ. On the whole no terrain thing, It's not the fact that he had stuff that killed me with no saves that bothers me, its that he has a unit that can drop anywhere second turn and do that so even with good maneuverability I still die. With two vindicators I spread out my models as much as possible, duh, and he used that to drop in squads that ate me piecemeal, tyed up my units until the vindicators arrived to help with any survivors, and then mop up with the troops when they got there. against any GK army this strategy is almost flawless except with terrain.

 

ps he lost 1 vindicator, 1 terminator, and 1 x10 man squad of sternguard veterans.

[Spector]

His Terminator Squad is illegal. He can only have 1 Heavy weapon for every 5 Terminator in the squad. He would need 10 Terminators in the squad to get 2 Assault Cannons.

[honersstodnt]

what you could have done to avoid this:

 

deep strike your grandmaster and company in behind his 1 vindicator. psycannon shots will obliterate one of them fully. use the landraider to transport your PAGK to assault the other vindicator... str6 weapons make short work of them.

 

your GM and terminators could have munched his terminators no problems in CC, sounds like a standard termie squad, with everything striking after you (power fists)... you shouldn't have issues with them.

 

sternguard are just as expensive as your marines, but MUCH worse in close combat... get into CC, and play your advantages. ists in the rhino should have been able to at least keep the tac squad busy until you finish blowing apart the rest of his army.

[WAR]

sorry off topic, but the jeske your SIG is awesome

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Captain with min ret and 2 storm shields

 

Do you know the exact wargear? It helps a lot with deciding how to tackle these chumps.

 

In general, I would use your GM and his retinue to munch these guys and force-weapon that Captain. You should always swap out one of the Termies for TH+SS, it's free and helps a lot when tackling vehicles. And as someone else suggested, if you find armour such a problem, Deepstrike the unit behind his Vindicators and blast their rear armour apart. Another option is to try to take it down in close-combat (remember, hits rear armour, so you'll be doing pretty well with the TH and the NFW's are not bad either).

 

7 termies w/ 2 assault cannons

 

Illegal. He needs a full squad of 10.

 

10 sternguard vets drop pod

 

You need a fire support Lord (see below on recommendations for your list). His Mystics+twin-linked plasma cannon and mass AP4 will annhilate them. The best part is that they don't get to Run or Shoot before the Mystics detect them; you just disembark, and then you resolve the retinue's fire on them. The survivors then get to Run or Shoot as per normal.

 

10 tac marines plas cannon and plas

 

No powerfist? Excellent, Outflank with the Eversor and a few DCA and beat these guys in close-combat. Tac Marines are just as vulnerable to this as they were in 4th, especially if there is no powerfist to instant-death the Assassins.

 

Vindicator with chronus

Vindicator

 

Chronus is a bugger, I would send the Terminators after his Vindicator. As for the other one, gang up on it with your Hellfire Dreadnoughts.

 

 

Now, to your list;

 

Vindicare

 

Don't. He has no hidden powerfists, and in any case this guy sucks. Take the Eversor or Callidus, preferably with a small DCA bodyguard (3-4 chicks) and Outflank his Tactical Marines. The Eversor is also more than capable of ripping apart the Captain and his Command squad (remember, it's not a retinue, so you can choose to just attack the Captain and ignore the Command squad when you assault them).

 

INQ w/ bp/ccw

I recommend the following;

 

Inquisitor Lord, psycannon

2 x heavy bolter servitors, plasma cannon servitor

2 x Sages, 2 x Mystics

(202 points)

 

Remember, the Mystics activate as soon as they have disembarked, so they get no opportunity to Run (to disperse to minimise blast casualties) or Shoot. The Sternguard will be nicely bunched up for the plasma cannon (remember, you only get cover saves against blast weapons if you are in cover, direction of the blast doesn't grant you cover saves) and you can finish off the survivors with AP4 dakka from the rest of the retinue.

 

8 GKPA

 

You need another squad of these guys. Failing that, give them a pair of psycannons and a targeter to the Justicar.

7 IST w/ 2 plas

 

They need a Rhino to rush onto an objective.

 

Land raider

TLLC/ML dread with smoke/extra armor

 

Drop the Landraider, use the points to bump up other units, and also to get another Hellfire Dreadnought. Drop the smokes and extra armour, it's a shooty unit so being shaken or stunned isn't a big difference. Also, you should be hugging cover with the Dreadnoughts, so smokes is also uneccessary (it costs you a valuable turn of fire).

 

 

BTW, roughly what point level are you playing?

[benmothershaw]

@Reclusiarch Darius good points there, I would suggest taking on board his ideas.

@ The inq lord build in general, I find it better to use plasmaguns, generally heavy armour and high toughness runs towards me, Plasmaguns will be more efficient killers.

@ The list - I used something very similar, except I used a LRC and dropped the Pyscannons to make a Inq+retinue (shooty)

@ Gm+retinue, yes you do need a TH/SS but Hammerhand imo is better, striking dreadnoughts first.

@Stormtroopers without Rhino - Is ok not to use a Rhino in 5th edition, use the "run" rule instead.

@anti-tank, drop the Dreadnought, use a single Land Raider, imo 1 land raider is better than (buying enough anti-tank for level of game) 2 a.t. dreadnoughts.

With only 2 troops, you should definately put your GK's inside the Land Raider and upgrade to incinerators.

@Vindicare - Pffff i'll let you be the judge of him.

 

 

My list

GM x4 terminators w/ 2 psycannons

Vindicare

INQ w/ bp/ccw

8 GKPA

""

7 IST w/ 2 plas

""

Land raider

TLLC/ML dread with smoke/extra armor

Edit:

I don't think in the battle report you can do much about stenguard, imo he would of used hellfire rounds on your terminators.

[ripath]

deep strike your grandmaster and company in behind his 1 vindicator. psycannon shots will obliterate one of them fully. use the landraider to transport your PAGK to assault the other vindicator... str6 weapons make short work of them.

 

your GM and terminators could have munched his terminators no problems in CC, sounds like a standard termie squad, with everything striking after you (power fists)... you shouldn't have issues with them.

 

I just will use my dread and LR to destroy his tanks. with one on each side they can shoot the tank rushing towards the other flank and hit it in the rear armor. 6 shots of str6 6 is good but twin linked str 9 against armor 11 is even better.

I tried to deep strike my terminators close to his so that they could chew them up, however I scattered 6 inches and landed right in front of his command squad that all of his plasma marines were marching behind. so they got eaten badly.

I'm probably going to switch back to the eversore now.

[the jeske]

sorry off topic, but the jeske your SIG is awesome

 

np man . but you do know that am dising Thorpe there . He is probally the only person I disliked from the GW team [for example I have deep respect for JJ for all the versions of Blood Bowl , specially dead zone] . I could never understand how is it possible that people who did a good job with dexs left and thorpe who made one bad dex after another always stayed .

 

 

As the list goes . his was an anti meq tailored list and yours was a 1k Gk army [i dont want to use the term bad or good here , because GK are more about skills then army builds] . I wouldnt make a big fuss about it . Yes they are armies that can go on auto pilot , while with the GK you have to think 2 turns ahead all the time . The codex sm is not over powered . It has fewer options then the last one [even counting list made with special characters] , the main strenght of the old sm codex is dead [the gunline list] . and the khan build while imo the best build out of the new dex [funny how an army made around tacticals sucks hard] is a bit random . the old dex sm army builds werent random , they were precise as hell . you knew how many meq you would down at the end of turn 3 and you could build the whole tactics/movement etc around it .

[Ambro]

I suppose at this point that I should re iterate that I fielded the models that I had at the moment. I was prepared for either a 1k game, or a combat patrol game in each I prefer to not use transports and instead bulk up on troops as much as possible. Normally I only run with 1 bc w/ psycannon as an HQ. On the whole no terrain thing, It's not the fact that he had stuff that killed me with no saves that bothers me, its that he has a unit that can drop anywhere second turn and do that so even with good maneuverability I still die. With two vindicators I spread out my models as much as possible, duh, and he used that to drop in squads that ate me piecemeal, tyed up my units until the vindicators arrived to help with any survivors, and then mop up with the troops when they got there. against any GK army this strategy is almost flawless except with terrain.

 

ps he lost 1 vindicator, 1 terminator, and 1 x10 man squad of sternguard veterans.

 

Well every unit has its strengths and weakness so a lot of it comes down to the army list selection and strategy before the dice have even been rolled, especially true if your playing with no terrain. I dont think this loss is representative of what most Daemonhunter games are going to be like against marines, you just got unlucky with your match up because you had the wrong strategy and army list for the army which you where facing so you where fighting a loosing battle from the start.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

@ The inq lord build in general, I find it better to use plasmaguns, generally heavy armour and high toughness runs towards me, Plasmaguns will be more efficient killers.

 

The problem with plasma guns (ie taking Veteran Stormtroopers) is two-fold. Firstly, you have to close to rapid-fire range (something that dramatically decreases their survivability). Secondly, you are giving up the excellent range and lethal potential of a Sage-guided plasma cannon servitor. Dropping AP2 blasts onto enemy infantry with relative impunity (there isn't a lot that has 36" range that isn't a non-Troop unit or a vehicle) is a great ability, especially with the AP4 dakka to finish them off.

 

@ Gm+retinue, yes you do need a TH/SS but Hammerhand imo is better, striking dreadnoughts first.

 

Yeah, but sometimes it's hard to squeeze that 20 points into a list. It's a good power though (especially now that non-walkers get hit in their AV10 rear in close-combat). I always do the TH+SS swap on one GKT though, in case I don't take Hammerhand. The TH+SS dude is also good for stunning big beasties; they get to attack normally in the first round of combat, but provided I get a wound on it with the TH, it can't strike again until my surviving GKT's have resolved all their attacks (including the TH guy). So, you can essentially keep stunning a tough MC/character until all that S6/8 power weapon kills it.

 

@Stormtroopers without Rhino - Is ok not to use a Rhino in 5th edition, use the "run" rule instead.

 

True, but the Rhino with extra armour and smokes popped is nearly impossible to halt. Every hit can only be glancing (meanining the worst that can happen is an immobilise), and the extra armour keeps it moving (can only be shaken, stunned gets knocked down). It's a pretty excellent and cheap transport, so I would still use them, especially on suicide 5-man dual melta squads for rushing armour.

@anti-tank, drop the Dreadnought, use a single Land Raider, imo 1 land raider is better than (buying enough anti-tank for level of game) 2 a.t. dreadnoughts.

 

Not really. The Dreadnoughts can hide in terrain like infantry (except they are a bit taller and wider, but still a lot easier than most vehicles), and they form two seperate targets, thus diluting enemy anti-tank. They also get two krak missile shots over the Landraider, while still having a pair of twin-lascannons (so they actually have slightly better anti-tank firepower).

I tried to deep strike my terminators close to his so that they could chew them up, however I scattered 6 inches and landed right in front of his command squad that all of his plasma marines were marching behind. so they got eaten badly.

 

Ouch. Yeah, maybe you should footslog them next time, or get some teleport homers.

 

I'm probably going to switch back to the eversore now.

 

He'll eat that Tactical squad no problems, so I would highly recommend this.

 

I dont think this loss is representative of what most Daemonhunter games are going to be like against marines, you just got unlucky with your match up because you had the wrong strategy and army list for the army which you where facing so you where fighting a loosing battle from the start.

 

I agree. Hopefully when you have a re-match you'll be able to show who really has the Emperor on his side! :(

[ripath]

I agree. Hopefully when you have a re-match you'll be able to show who really has the Emperor on his side! msn-wink.gif

 

Before the emperor's gift of vengeance is attained much play testing in my house will be conducted. I have found that with the exception of the vindicators I can field his list and mine with my models so I'll be testing the strategies before hand so I can know if they will work. No sense in asking for a rematch if your going to get a beating again.

On another note I would like to ask everyone on how they would make a list that could combat the one I faced and also horde armies. I don't like to kite my lists, instead preferring to make all-comers lists(helps with the feel that you keep fighting with the same army)

[benmothershaw]

@ The inq lord build in general, I find it better to use plasmaguns, generally heavy armour and high toughness runs towards me, Plasmaguns will be more efficient killers.

The problem with plasma guns (ie taking Veteran Stormtroopers) is two-fold. Firstly, you have to close to rapid-fire range (something that dramatically decreases their survivability). Secondly, you are giving up the excellent range and lethal potential of a Sage-guided plasma cannon servitor. Dropping AP2 blasts onto enemy infantry with relative impunity (there isn't a lot that has 36" range that isn't a non-Troop unit or a vehicle) is a great ability, especially with the AP4 dakka to finish them off.

@ Gm+retinue, yes you do need a TH/SS but Hammerhand imo is better, striking dreadnoughts first.

Yeah, but sometimes it's hard to squeeze that 20 points into a list. It's a good power though (especially now that non-walkers get hit in their AV10 rear in close-combat). I always do the TH+SS swap on one GKT though, in case I don't take Hammerhand. The TH+SS dude is also good for stunning big beasties; they get to attack normally in the first round of combat, but provided I get a wound on it with the TH, it can't strike again until my surviving GKT's have resolved all their attacks (including the TH guy). So, you can essentially keep stunning a tough MC/character until all that S6/8 power weapon kills it.

@Stormtroopers without Rhino - Is ok not to use a Rhino in 5th edition, use the "run" rule instead.

True, but the Rhino with extra armour and smokes popped is nearly impossible to halt. Every hit can only be glancing (meanining the worst that can happen is an immobilise), and the extra armour keeps it moving (can only be shaken, stunned gets knocked down). It's a pretty excellent and cheap transport, so I would still use them, especially on suicide 5-man dual melta squads for rushing armour.

@anti-tank, drop the Dreadnought, use a single Land Raider, imo 1 land raider is better than (buying enough anti-tank for level of game) 2 a.t. dreadnoughts.

Not really. The Dreadnoughts can hide in terrain like infantry (except they are a bit taller and wider, but still a lot easier than most vehicles), and they form two seperate targets, thus diluting enemy anti-tank. They also get two krak missile shots over the Landraider, while still having a pair of twin-lascannons (so they actually have slightly better anti-tank firepower).

Yeah I forgot to mention the plasma cannon :P thats the only reason I take the squad. Although my point was rather plasmaguns over Heavy bolters, as personal preference being able to shred through 2+ armour.

The pyschic power is half the points you mentioned, although I agree the nightbringer and the like are a use-ense.

Yeah your right 2 Dreadnoughts are better anti-tank, but I mean to say it's better in general. I.e. crew shaken result is annoying for dreadnoughts.

The Land Raider can transport troops, which is invaluable protecting them and deploying them well without decreasing firepower enourmously. I just love the Transport it provide personally.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yeah I forgot to mention the plasma cannon smile.gif thats the only reason I take the squad. Although my point was rather plasmaguns over Heavy bolters, as personal preference being able to shred through 2+ armour.

 

Well, the problem that arises is optimum range; the plasma cannon works best at 36" while you are stationary, while the plasma gun(s) work best at 18" (ie move another 6" forwards and rapid-fire). You either have to move into at least 24" (which means you can't fire the plasma cannon or plasma guns that turn), wait for the enemy to do so, or just keep moving until you hit rapid-fire range.

 

Heavy bolters are cheap (considering the platform) and very synergestic with the plasma cannon (same range, have to be stationary to fire), and also work great with the Lord's BS5 psycannon contribution (he can waltz around inside 18" moving and shooting, so it can be used with plasma guns, but you lose out on the extra range).

The pyschic power is half the points you mentioned, although I agree the nightbringer and the like are a use-ense.

 

Actually, against the Nightbringer and Wraithlords Hammerhand is not a bad option. You are only wounding on 6's with the NFW, and the 4+ invul on the Nightbringer doesn't care if you use a power weapon or not.

 

Yeah your right 2 Dreadnoughts are better anti-tank, but I mean to say it's better in general. I.e. crew shaken result is annoying for dreadnoughts.

The Land Raider can transport troops, which is invaluable protecting them and deploying them well without decreasing firepower enourmously. I just love the Transport it provide personally.

 

Yeah, Machine Spirit is fun, but remember you have to stun/shake both walkers to shut down my twin-lascannons+krak missiles, not just shake/stun one Landraider. If you want a pure transport (normal Landraiders are a bit confused, because you really want both God-Hammers firing all game, but you also wanna use it as a transport), I would get a Crusader. It will tear apart horde armies and safely deliver your GK Hero and his retinue to enemy lines, all the while laying down excellent fire support (Hurricanes may always fire, Machine Spirit twin-AC or multi-melta when moving 12", can still Machine Spirit a weapon even while stunned/shaken).

[honersstodnt]

against wraithlords, i'd rather wound on the 6 and instant kill than wound on a 4+ and give him his save and 3 wounds.

[benmothershaw]

Well, the problem that arises is optimum range; the plasma cannon works best at 36" while you are stationary, while the plasma gun(s) work best at 18" (ie move another 6" forwards and rapid-fire). You either have to move into at least 24" (which means you can't fire the plasma cannon or plasma guns that turn), wait for the enemy to do so, or just keep moving until you hit rapid-fire range.

 

Heavy bolters are cheap (considering the platform) and very synergestic with the plasma cannon (same range, have to be stationary to fire), and also work great with the Lord's BS5 psycannon contribution (he can waltz around inside 18" moving and shooting, so it can be used with plasma guns, but you lose out on the extra range).

 

Yeah, Machine Spirit is fun, but remember you have to stun/shake both walkers to shut down my twin-lascannons+krak missiles, not just shake/stun one Landraider. If you want a pure transport (normal Landraiders are a bit confused, because you really want both God-Hammers firing all game, but you also wanna use it as a transport), I would get a Crusader. It will tear apart horde armies and safely deliver your GK Hero and his retinue to enemy lines, all the while laying down excellent fire support (Hurricanes may always fire, Machine Spirit twin-AC or multi-melta when moving 12", can still Machine Spirit a weapon even while stunned/shaken).

True, but I dedicate my Inq lord + retinue in protecting objectives, Plasmaguns meerly just help in the dedication. I would never move my Inq Lord + retinue just to get into rapid fire range. I mean, Plasmaguns are better than Heavy Bolters against Heavy armour (2+ save) and tough creatures, this is emphasised more in deepstriking units like terminators. Anything coming to contest my objective isn't going to be short of something pretty hard.

Yes pure transport I agree :D LRC is better, I'm glad you also have that view point. :) I'm happy someone now plays GK's like me and more specifically uses GKT properly :D (imo stupid pyscannons (lame)).

The idea was, generally have similar abilities as a a.t. dreadnough but providing that all important transport capacity and more active infantry support... As for glances, it rarely happens.

[ripath]

Actually I have found that the list I lost against is severally lacking long rang anti tank weaponry. yes the vindicators can take out armor however I tend to pop those by hitting them in their side armor. So this time I will probably be trying a more armored approach, such as another land raider or dread naught if I can fit it in the list. Now in 5th ed rending attacks only get +d3 armor penetration on a roll, so the only thing that his infantry have that will pop a dread from the front are the plasma guns and cannons. and if he is willing to waste a turn by shooting at my dread naught that is another turn some GK live. A strategy that I've been thinking about is playing pure GK putting GKPA into a land raider and having them sit in it until the plasma squads have been worn down. Kind of like Silent requim's water warrior list.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

against wraithlords, i'd rather wound on the 6 and instant kill than wound on a 4+ and give him his save and 3 wounds.

 

Thats why you have 1-2 GKT's in your retinue sporting the TH+SS combination. For piling extra wounds onto him, Hammerhand is not a bad option, certainly better than the NFW. He only has a 3+ armour save and 3 wounds, combined with the TH attacks you should be able to stomp him down.

 

True, but I dedicate my Inq lord + retinue in protecting objectives, Plasmaguns meerly just help in the dedication. I would never move my Inq Lord + retinue just to get into rapid fire range. I mean, Plasmaguns are better than Heavy Bolters against Heavy armour (2+ save) and tough creatures, this is emphasised more in deepstriking units like terminators. Anything coming to contest my objective isn't going to be short of something pretty hard.

 

But you are wasting the potential of those expensive plasma guns by camping with them. Heavy bolters match range with the plasma cannon and therefore you are always firing at maximum efficiency. With plasma guns, you will waste 1-2 turns either moving into range or waiting for the enemy to do so.

 

Yes pure transport I agree smile.gif LRC is better, I'm glad you also have that view point. smile.gif I'm happy someone now plays GK's like me and more specifically uses GKT properly smile.gif (imo stupid pyscannons (lame)).

 

Well, the dual psycannon GKT squad is by no means bad, but it's a total waste of their assault potential. S6 power weapons at I4 are a rarity and mounted on such tough models it seems a waste to hang back like a Devastator squad, hurling AP4 dakka downrange at infantry. In smaller games it works, in larger games (where Crusaders can be bought without robbing you of Troops) a GM and an assault retinue is better value IMO.

The idea was, generally have similar abilities as a a.t. dreadnough but providing that all important transport capacity and more active infantry support... As for glances, it rarely happens.

 

Yeah, but it can't really do both effectively. When you move in to deliver infantry into the maw, you're wasting the 48" range on the God-hammers. You're also exposing your Landraider to the increased risk of getting melta'd/assaulted by MC's/chainfisted. The Crusader is designed for close-range firefights, and has an increased capacity, which is why I favour it over the normal Landraider. For long-range anti-tank support Hellfire Dreadnoughts are easier to hide and further dilute heavy weapon fire.

 

So this time I will probably be trying a more armored approach, such as another land raider or dread naught if I can fit it in the list.

 

A Crusader for delivering your Grandmaster+friends sounds like the plan then. Two Hellfire Dreadnoughts to back it up and take out the Vindicator (which looks to be the only real threat to your vehicles) would also help.

 

A strategy that I've been thinking about is playing pure GK putting GKPA into a land raider and having them sit in it until the plasma squads have been worn down.

 

Sounds like a good idea also. Maybe after dropping off the GM and his mates to wreak havok, you could send it back to pick up a PAGK squad and then camp an objective. Remember, Troops inside a vehicle can still 'claim' it, as measured from the hull. Given the bulk of the Landraider, it's not hard to pull this off.

[benmothershaw]

But you are wasting the potential of those expensive plasma guns by camping with them. Heavy bolters match range with the plasma cannon and therefore you are always firing at maximum efficiency. With plasma guns, you will waste 1-2 turns either moving into range or waiting for the enemy to do so.

The idea was, generally have similar abilities as a a.t. dreadnough but providing that all important transport capacity and more active infantry support... As for glances, it rarely happens.

 

Yeah, but it can't really do both effectively. When you move in to deliver infantry into the maw, you're wasting the 48" range on the God-hammers. You're also exposing your Landraider to the increased risk of getting melta'd/assaulted by MC's/chainfisted. The Crusader is designed for close-range firefights, and has an increased capacity, which is why I favour it over the normal Landraider. For long-range anti-tank support Hellfire Dreadnoughts are easier to hide and further dilute heavy weapon fire.

 

So this time I will probably be trying a more armored approach, such as another land raider or dread naught if I can fit it in the list.

 

A Crusader for delivering your Grandmaster+friends sounds like the plan then. Two Hellfire Dreadnoughts to back it up and take out the Vindicator (which looks to be the only real threat to your vehicles) would also help.

Nah If someone is going to contest they will try and assault me. With the Inq Lord on the objective, they will quite literally run into all his guns just to try and contest the objective. Wether I have 2 Heavy bolters extra at range, it wouldn't make much difference, my GM are assigned opposing half attacks.

The Land Raider I didn't quite mention how I use it, my apologies, basically The Land Raider provides infantry support through Lascannons and it's hull. The Land Raider usually sits on your objective and reacts to any unit which may contest.

I'm by no means wasting lascannons?? I move 6" fire both. I don't think many meltaguns will be at my end of the table...

Chainfist either...

The thing with the LR is, It's no means terrible as an assault tank (imo andy hoare designed it as this) which is why it can change roles. I.e. Ahnilation - assault, Seize Ground - counter offense.

Yes the LRC is better at the assault role, infantry support role is a bit different.

Dilute? what do you mean? Dreadnoughts can snipe yes. But at the end of the day the Land Raider doesn't need to snipe, it provides all the a.t. you need, and then a haven for your GK's aswell as transport capabilities without decreasing efficiency.

I.e. move 6" 1 weapon + machine spirit. < Machine spirit is what makes it do both effectively.

Woo *high five* go GM+GKT+LRC, go bunny go.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The Land Raider I didn't quite mention how I use it, my apologies, basically The Land Raider provides infantry support through Lascannons and it's hull. The Land Raider usually sits on your objective and reacts to any unit which may contest.

I'm by no means wasting lascannons?? I move 6" fire both. I don't think many meltaguns will be at my end of the table...

Chainfist either...

The thing with the LR is, It's no means terrible as an assault tank (imo andy hoare designed it as this) which is why it can change roles. I.e. Ahnilation - assault, Seize Ground - counter offense.

 

My point is that you'll have to choose between moving infantry quickly across the board (they can Run faster, literally, if you just move the LR 6" a turn) or laying down the God-Hammer pain. PotMS still lets you fire a single God-hammer while moving 12", but a Dread can do the same from your backline for half the price (thereabouts).

 

Yes the LRC is better at the assault role, infantry support role is a bit different.

 

Infantry support = anti-tank help? If so, Dreadnoughts are the better option. They do much the same job from max weapon range (thus avoiding the aformentioned problems of the LR, who has to move your infantry from A to B, thus risking a chainfist/melta/MC assault when it arrives at :), plus they chuck krak missiles downrange at the same time (or frag if need be).

Dilute? what do you mean? Dreadnoughts can snipe yes. But at the end of the day the Land Raider doesn't need to snipe, it provides all the a.t. you need, and then a haven for your GK's aswell as transport capabilities without decreasing efficiency.

I.e. move 6" 1 weapon + machine spirit. < Machine spirit is what makes it do both effectively.

Woo *high five* go GM+GKT+LRC, go bunny go.

 

:D Well, think about it. Instead of one big fat target (the Landraider bearing down on them), they have two smaller walkers hiding out in different positions in your backlines. The Dreads are weaker individually (due to AV12 instead of AV14), but you have to disable/destroy both in the same turn to shut down their fire support. Landraider (when not popping smokes) is always firing at least one God-hammer, but if it blows up thats both twin-lascannons gone.

Short of Outflank/Infiltrate or Deepstriking, you won't reach the Dreads with the short-range threats that the LR has to contend with (and with auspexes and Mystics you can eliminate all but Outflankers as a problem). The Dreads are likely to pack 4+ cover saves, because you'll be hiding them in some good hard cover (like you would with an infantry unit). Your Landraider is tougher for one turn (when it pops smokes, in which case it's not firing anything, regardless of PotMS), but after that it will be simply one AV14 target, instead of two AV12 targets which ignore roughly half of all damage (thanks to cover).

 

My point with the Landraider is that when used as a transport, you lose out on a God-hammer, waste the extra range of it's weaponry, and put it in serious danger of getting melta'd/chainfisted/assaulted by an MC. In the case of the Crusader, this isn't as big a deal, as it's weaponry and role suit a bum-rush with smokes, then cruising around enemy lines beating infantry and disgorging your own to wreak havok. On the initial bum-rush, ranged weaponry have to contend with AV14 and only glancing, while assaulters only hit on 6's. You also don't waste much firepower doing this, as all guns on the Crusader have 24" range. However, next turn when you move another 12" into his lines, the Hurricanes and twin-AC can now fire (at seperate targets as well). Meanwhile, it's passengers can hop out and cause some damage. If you really need to kill some armour, the multi-melta is always there, but I almost never use it.

 

If you only move 6" a turn with the normal Landraider, you are better off Running with it's passengers (they'll move faster). The whole point of transports to to quickly re-deploy your infantry units (ie by moving the infantry quicker than they could normally move) to where you need them. Thats why I think the normal LR is too conflicted as a unit, and why I favour the Crusader backed up by a pair of Hellfire Dreadnoughts.

[ripath]

Wow I never thought that we would all get this off topic, no offense but really this thread is about a possible anti-meq SM list. I don't mean to put down all the input but it would be better if we didn't get sidetracked like this. So that being said who else has faced off against a list similar to the one that lost to?

[marshall Egregorius]

Captain with min ret and 2 storm shields

 

Do you know the exact wargear? It helps a lot with deciding how to tackle these chumps.

 

In general, I would use your GM and his retinue to munch these guys and force-weapon that Captain. You should always swap out one of the Termies for TH+SS, it's free and helps a lot when tackling vehicles. And as someone else suggested, if you find armour such a problem, Deepstrike the unit behind his Vindicators and blast their rear armour apart. Another option is to try to take it down in close-combat (remember, hits rear armour, so you'll be doing pretty well with the TH and the NFW's are not bad either).

 

7 termies w/ 2 assault cannons

 

Illegal. He needs a full squad of 10.

 

10 sternguard vets drop pod

 

You need a fire support Lord (see below on recommendations for your list). His Mystics+twin-linked plasma cannon and mass AP4 will annhilate them. The best part is that they don't get to Run or Shoot before the Mystics detect them; you just disembark, and then you resolve the retinue's fire on them. The survivors then get to Run or Shoot as per normal.

 

10 tac marines plas cannon and plas

 

No powerfist? Excellent, Outflank with the Eversor and a few DCA and beat these guys in close-combat. Tac Marines are just as vulnerable to this as they were in 4th, especially if there is no powerfist to instant-death the Assassins.

 

Vindicator with chronus

Vindicator

 

Chronus is a bugger, I would send the Terminators after his Vindicator. As for the other one, gang up on it with your Hellfire Dreadnoughts.

 

 

Now, to your list;

 

Vindicare

 

Don't. He has no hidden powerfists, and in any case this guy sucks. Take the Eversor or Callidus, preferably with a small DCA bodyguard (3-4 chicks) and Outflank his Tactical Marines. The Eversor is also more than capable of ripping apart the Captain and his Command squad (remember, it's not a retinue, so you can choose to just attack the Captain and ignore the Command squad when you assault them).

 

INQ w/ bp/ccw

I recommend the following;

 

Inquisitor Lord, psycannon

2 x heavy bolter servitors, plasma cannon servitor

2 x Sages, 2 x Mystics

(202 points)

 

Remember, the Mystics activate as soon as they have disembarked, so they get no opportunity to Run (to disperse to minimise blast casualties) or Shoot. The Sternguard will be nicely bunched up for the plasma cannon (remember, you only get cover saves against blast weapons if you are in cover, direction of the blast doesn't grant you cover saves) and you can finish off the survivors with AP4 dakka from the rest of the retinue.

 

8 GKPA

 

You need another squad of these guys. Failing that, give them a pair of psycannons and a targeter to the Justicar.

7 IST w/ 2 plas

 

They need a Rhino to rush onto an objective.

 

Land raider

TLLC/ML dread with smoke/extra armor

 

Drop the Landraider, use the points to bump up other units, and also to get another Hellfire Dreadnought. Drop the smokes and extra armour, it's a shooty unit so being shaken or stunned isn't a big difference. Also, you should be hugging cover with the Dreadnoughts, so smokes is also uneccessary (it costs you a valuable turn of fire).

 

 

BTW, roughly what point level are you playing?

 

 

the termie's are not illegal. the codex says "up to 5 extra terminators"