high marshall jordan Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Been awhile since I ever posted mainly cause of school and not much to really post about. Well as the topic says I have been thinking of the deathwatch marines and how they seem don't really fit into the fold the same as the SOB and the GK. The GK and SOB are specifically trained from the beginning to fight certain enemies of the imperium but the deathwatch take volunteer marines which are already highly trained to take a multitude of enemies and further trains and equips them to take on a certain kind.I love the deathwatch and have about 1500 pts of them but the fluff IMO seems that it should've been done differently. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 DW are specifically trained, mostly because Marines would be seconded to the DW early on in their careers, so the majority of their experience/on-the-job training would come from the Deathwatch. Besides, crushing xeno scum is what the Marines were created for and do anyway - most of their in-house Chapter training will include "How to kill X alien race". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1752877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I don't get what your on about. Every branch of the Inquisition has it's own Chamber Militant, to do their bidding irrespective of the loyalties of external forces (ie SM Chapters, IG Regiments, AdMech forces). Basically, before the 'modern' Imperium came into being (remember, back before the Heresy), the Emperor was already putting together the Inquisition, perhaps because he had forseen the coming darkness. The Ordo Xenos and the Ordo Malleus were the two original branches (the latter only becoming formal after the Heresy). The Deathwatch precedes the other two Chamber Militant by a couple of decades at least. We can presume their bonds with the loyalist Chapters could've been enacted quicker than the creation of the Grey Knights. The Grey Knights only came into existance after the Horus Heresy. The Ordo Hereticus only formally came into being after the Vandire Heresy (or Age of Apostasy), likewise the SoB's consisted of a single female coven of warriors on one world (Brides of the Emperor). All loyalist Marine Chapters owe a pledge to the Ordo Xenos, to contribute a small tithe of battle-brothers (ie, full Marines, not Scouts) as a sign of loyalty. It also circumvents the awkward politics of the Imperium, when the Inquisition has to negotiate with a whole Chapter to get military forces under their thumb. By having the Deathwatch, the Ordo Xenos gets the best warriors in the Imperium, and is able to cement their dominance over arguably quite proud and head-strong warriors (ie by making sure no two Deathwatch recruits are from the same Chapter, hence mixed Kill-teams). In return, a Chapter gets back experienced xeno-hunters and possibly a little support from the Ordo Xenos in times of trouble (ie internal Imperial politics relating the distrust the Ordo Hereticus has for 8-foot tall genetically-altered superhumans). I find the Deathwatch background (what exists thereof) to be pretty straightforward and less 'tacked on' than many other aspects of 40k canon. For example (I actually like SoB but bear with me), I find the SoB's history to be contrived and quite calculated. I mean, they (and the Ordo Hereticus) basically didn't exist until Vandire went on a power trip and upset the delicate balance of power between the secularists and the Eccelisarchy. Post-Vandire, when the secular Adeptus Terra tried to clamp down on the Frateris Militia (which in part contributed to the crisis), the Eccelsiarchy wormed their way out of giving up control of military assets by formally inducting the Brides of the Emperor (helped in no small part by teh Saint Sebastian). It's an interesting story, and well-developed, but it's not a fundemental pillar of 40k, and it's quite possible GW could have never created the SoB or the Age of Apostasy. It's rather like the Tau (I actually have an army of them and like their background as well), it's quite obvious they were developed 'after the event', rather than being one of those 'pillar' factions/canon (ie 40k would lose all meaning without Chaos, to be blunt, and likewise the Astartes form a lot of the fluff and architecture of 40k). I would hasten to add I am in no way saying 'lets retcon' the SoB (or the Ordo Hereticus either), I value their place in 40k canon, but unlike the Grey Knights or Deathwatch (and their associated Orders) they are not a pillar of the Inquisition, they are a political concession made in the aftermath of one of the bloodiest civil wars in the Imperium's history. So, what I'm trying to say (in a round-about fashion) is that I disagree, and would contend that the Deathwatch are entirely keeping with the 40k canon and are very much justified as a faction in 40k (along with the Ordo Xenos). I suspect GW never released an army (just the PDF), because you could basically just take a Marine army and model/paint them to be Deathwatch (they even gave you supplementary rules in the Deathwatch PDF for adding special ammo and the like, if not a full Kill-team in HQ). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1752883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltnot Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I agree with Reclusiarch Darius' post above. The only point I dislike is the idea of a "Deathwatch Army". Fluff wise, these guys act as kill teams to accomplish objectives that a force in numbers cannot. An Inquisitor won't requisition and transport an army of Deathwatch Marines when they can simply use local forces (Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, Imperial Guard, or other forces). Rules wise, it is now easy to represent Deathwatch by using Sternguard instead. As a side note, I similarly dislike the idea of Grey Knight armies. Fluff wise, they operate in small groups, usually only consisting of a squad or two. They are brought in to fight specific foes, and then leave again. After all, it's a bit of a waste to spend large amounts of money training up a single Grey Knight only to have him die to a lasgun shot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1753072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodwynDi Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Anyone who refers to sisters as "Brides of the Emperor" should fear the rapidity of their wrath. The SoB existed before the Vandire Heresy and were originally the Daughters of the Emperor, as they are now. Vandire renamed them after he took power. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1753266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Reclusiarch Darius: A minor correction; the Sisters were the Daughters of the Emperor before Vandire came across them. I do believe that they now consider the title "Brides of the Emperor" heretical and wish to have absolutely nothing to do with it anymore due to its association with the apostasy of Goge vandire. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1753378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diddlysquat Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Yes Sternguard can represent Deathwatch, but only a pale comparison imo, as there's no way to uber them up with c/c weaponry other than on the Sgt. I'm sure most people wouldn't go that route with them but it still remains that Sternguard aren't an exact fit..it would be more a mix of them and Vanguard. Legal army aside...I play an all Deathwatch list (and have for a couple of years)within my gaming club, and it's hugely competitive and great fun. There's so little Deathwatch background to motivate people to actually collect them, so it's up to gamers themselves to 'create' their own in order to field them which is what me and others in my area have done...The fun we've had with them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1753811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tauren Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 SoB are the militant arm of the Ordo Hereticus and deals with churchly orders and weeding out heretics... GK are the militant arm of the Ordo Malleus and deals with chaos in general, specifically daemon incursions... DW are the militant arm of the Ordo Xenos deals with xenos in all their facets... All 3 make up the Inquisition... All 3 at times work together... Since all 3 can and do interact... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1753978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 SoB are the militant arm of the Ordo Hereticus and deals with churchly orders and weeding out heretics...GK are the militant arm of the Ordo Malleus and deals with chaos in general, specifically daemon incursions... DW are the militant arm of the Ordo Xenos deals with xenos in all their facets... All 3 make up the Inquisition... All 3 at times work together... Since all 3 can and do interact... Actually, the Sisters of BAttle are the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy, that is, the official church. They also have an agreement to help the Ordo Hereticus should said help be requested. The majority of the work the Sisters do has absolutly nothing to do with the Inquisition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1753998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diddlysquat Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 SoB are the militant arm of the Ordo Hereticus and deals with churchly orders and weeding out heretics...GK are the militant arm of the Ordo Malleus and deals with chaos in general, specifically daemon incursions... DW are the militant arm of the Ordo Xenos deals with xenos in all their facets... All 3 make up the Inquisition... All 3 at times work together... Since all 3 can and do interact... Actually, the Sisters of BAttle are the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy, that is, the official church. They also have an agreement to help the Ordo Hereticus should said help be requested. The majority of the work the Sisters do has absolutly nothing to do with the Inquisition. SoB's are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus...the Ecclesiarchy is their parent organisation and for whom most of their time is taken up with....defending Church property, bodyguarding hierarchy, and being a visible presence of the church's influence and power, etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1754092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 And fighting its wars of faith-- invading or reclaiming worlds for the expansion of Imperial and Ecclesiarchal authority. Indeed, some wars of faith become so large that they call in dozens if not hundreds of Imperial Guard regiments and several Space Marine chapters as support, as the Sisters are, like the Marines, an elite force and thus more limited in number than the Guard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1754095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 The only point I dislike is the idea of a "Deathwatch Army". Fluff wise, these guys act as kill teams to accomplish objectives that a force in numbers cannot. An Inquisitor won't requisition and transport an army of Deathwatch Marines when they can simply use local forces (Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, Imperial Guard, or other forces). Rules wise, it is now easy to represent Deathwatch by using Sternguard instead. I prefer the PDF ruleset for Deathwatch, myself. I do agree with you, the Deathwatch are usually only fielded in small Kill-teams and alone, if an Inquisitor needs that many Marines for the job he'll just requisition a local Chapter's forces. As a side note, I similarly dislike the idea of Grey Knight armies. Fluff wise, they operate in small groups, usually only consisting of a squad or two. They are brought in to fight specific foes, and then leave again. After all, it's a bit of a waste to spend large amounts of money training up a single Grey Knight only to have him die to a lasgun shot. Well, I think they are justifed, in desperate times. I mean, they deployed in the 1st War of Armageddon to send Angron and his retinue of Bloodthirsters back to the warp. Rare, but more likely to be deployed en-masse than the Deathwatch (Grey Knights are more shock troopers than recon teams ;) ). Reclusiarch Darius: A minor correction; the Sisters were the Daughters of the Emperor before Vandire came across them. I do believe that they now consider the title "Brides of the Emperor" heretical and wish to have absolutely nothing to do with it anymore due to its association with the apostasy of Goge vandire. My bad ;) . My overall point (names aside) was that the 'Daughers of the Emperor' or SoB were simply an all-female militant cult of the Emperor prior to their use as first a tool by Vandire, and now a tool of the Imperial Church. As we all know, it's the 'men under arms' loophole of the Decree Passive which is the only reason they're still around, and the subsequent concession by the Ordo Hereticus of keeping them around as a nominal Chamber Militant(a political bargain to calm tensions between the Church and the State). So, as cool as the army is, they are not central to 40k canon. Yes Sternguard can represent Deathwatch, but only a pale comparison imo, as there's no way to uber them up with c/c weaponry other than on the Sgt. I disagree. I like to count Sternguard as 'Exterminator' teams. That is, while a Kill-team may do recon and work undercover (hence their lack of anything heavier than a heavy bolter as a support weapon), an 'Exterminator' team is sent in as a shock assault to assassinate a xeno leader or ruling group. Many xenos can outclass even Deathwatch Marines in close combat, so they just blast them down from range (albeit quite close range). You can still take a Kill-team as your secondary HQ and tool them out with Veterans, but for the 'line' squads of Deathwatch Sternguard do a reasonable job emulating them. I'm sure most people wouldn't go that route with them but it still remains that Sternguard aren't an exact fit..it would be more a mix of them and Vanguard. Yeah, except Vanguard cost your first-born child to properly equip and field :unsure: ;) . You can pretty much get two Assault Marine squads for the price of a single Vanguard squad. If you keep them simple though (a few power weaponss and plasma pistols, plus relic blade on the Sarge), they make a good counter-part to the Exterminators, and form the first wave of a Deathwatch strike. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1754352 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 So, as cool as the army is, they are not central to 40k canon.No, that would be the Imperial Guard and Orks, but let's not start THAT discussion again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1754914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 No, that would be the Imperial Guard and Orks, but let's not start THAT discussion again. :) Are you serious? They're like more essential than even the Space Marines (I know, thats well and truly heresy, but meh :D ). Orks because they're the comic relief (and just plain awesome 24/7) and IG to get eaten by everything prior to the Marines dropping in and helping out. Without Orks, half the battles in 40k (lets be fair, more than half :P ) wouldn't have happened (and some important ones too like Armageddon), and without the Imperial Guard there is no Imperium. 1 million (roughly) Astartes can't hold the Imperium together alone, they need faceless grunts to get shot up first and tie down enemy armies so they can drop in, kill the leader/ugliest one, and take all the glory :D . Don't get me wrong, I do like the SoB, but they are by no means a central part of the background. They're a recent development (if you look at the 40k timeline in the BRB) and an end-result of a political bargain made in the aftermath of Vandire. This may just be my inner cynic, but I suspect they were introduced to attract women to 40k. Think about it; they're pretty much Marines re-done as ordinary people indoctrinated and tooled-up to fight holy wars, plus they're all women. Nice change of pace (and their background adds a lot to what we know about the divisions of power between the religious and secular grounds in the Imperium), but a tad unnecessary, given we already had fanatically loyal power-armoured humans (well, superhuman, but they are characterised as having the same flaws and personal issues as a Guardsman, so we can relate to them and therefore be driven to collect them). But when you make them female, you change the perspective considerably. We know the IG has female regiments and all that, but they're the faceless horde of grunts; making a whole army exclusively of heavy-armed fanatical religious women seems very much targeted at a certain audience. Not to make the overwhemling majority (males) who play them uncomfortable ;) , but yeah, I think they were a soft-handed attempt at marketing outside of GW's established fan-base. Like I said, could just be me reading too much into things, but the SoB are a tad incongruous in 40k background, and in the context of the other armies out there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1755357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hinti Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 @high marshall jordan: How do you play a DW-only Army with 1500 Points?? How's that going? :D :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1755362 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 Personally, I see it as fitting in quite well. Only in 40K does an imperial church have enough militaryy power to crush whole galactic sectors and subjugate the population even AFTER the political restraints the reforms put on them. And it does this with gusto and glee, ready to burn down as many heretics as they can and scare everyone else into converting. It fits quite well in the grim, dark, grimdarkness of W40K -_- Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1755429 Share on other sites More sharing options...
- 7eAL - Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 I rather disagree with Reclusiarch Darius about the timeline of the Inquisition's founding. The founding of the Inquisition began with Nathaniel Garro, Iacton Qruze and Amendera Kendel - the only organizations within the Inquisition that predate the Inquisition itself are the Officio Assassinorum and the Sisters of Silence. The Inquisition began, as well, as the Emperor's realization that he would not be able to control and prevent rebellion amongst his people, in part because Horus had set a precedent and in part because he was himself near death, unable to lead the Imperium after fighting Horus. In truth, there should have been no "Deathwatch" before the Horus Heresy, as no such force was necessary. The first Chamber Militant formally created to serve the Inquisition was the Grey Knights, although the basic roots of the Deathwatch were well in place amongst the Space Marines before the Deathwatch was formed to bring them together. The Emperor did not require a specially organized force for the sole purpose of fighting Xenos races; he commanded the Space Marine Legions to do so for him. Only after Roboute Guilleman introduced the Codex Astartes and divided chapters into numbers of a thousand Marines would such a problem of dealing with the alien arise, because smaller Chapters of Space Marines were less coordinated and thus less effective on a large scale of campaigns. It was not until after the Heresy that the Imperium began to face many more internal disputes as the collective glory of Imperial growth and advancement faded, forever tarnished by the rebellion of Horus. As the Space Marines turned their military might against these internal disputes, fewer of their number could be dedicated to fighting the Xenos races. It is for this reason that the Deathwatch as we know now was formally created some time after the Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1755478 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PMMJ Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 It's not that they seem out of place, they're just so much different from the DH and the WH. And they've never been as fleshed-out as the other two, and never in their own codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1755902 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaelion Hexis Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 I can sort of see where the OP is coming from. Whilst Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights are a constant force for their respective Ordos, Deathwatch marines come and go, temporarily inducted from various chapters. they stand out from the other Ordos. But I don't think it is a bad thing. Just a different way to go. I just wish they had more attention, but for now they seem more of a fluff idea than an actual army, the most being a WD article. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1755989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Personally, I see it as fitting in quite well. Only in 40K does an imperial church have enough militaryy power to crush whole galactic sectors and subjugate the population even AFTER the political restraints the reforms put on them. And it does this with gusto and glee, ready to burn down as many heretics as they can and scare everyone else into converting. It fits quite well in the grim, dark, grimdarkness of W40K tongue.gif Oh, they do fit, no question, but I don't see them as being as critical to the canon of 40k as other elements. Like I have said, SoB do have a very interesting background and form a lot of our knowledge on the power-play's between secular and religious elements in the Imperium. So, no argument here. The founding of the Inquisition began with Nathaniel Garro, Iacton Qruze and Amendera Kendel - the only organizations within the Inquisition that predate the Inquisition itself are the Officio Assassinorum and the Sisters of Silence. The Inquisition began, as well, as the Emperor's realization that he would not be able to control and prevent rebellion amongst his people, in part because Horus had set a precedent and in part because he was himself near death, unable to lead the Imperium after fighting Horus. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I swear I've read somewhere that the Emperor started 'gathering men and women of an inquisitive nature' just prior to the Horus Heresy. Or was that after the event? I'm not 100% but I have a feeling the Emperor at least started to form the Inquisition prior to Horus... In any case, the point I was making is that the Deathwatch treaty with the Astartes, and the founding of the Grey Knights, both pre-date the SoB and the Ordo Hereticus by a considerable time-period. Therefore, GW could have merrily continued onwards with the grim far future without creating the Ordo Hereticus or the SoB to be their Chamber Militant. I welcome their addition to the canon but nonetheless they are only a recent development, strictly speaking. In truth, there should have been no "Deathwatch" before the Horus Heresy, as no such force was necessary. The first Chamber Militant formally created to serve the Inquisition was the Grey Knights, although the basic roots of the Deathwatch were well in place amongst the Space Marines before the Deathwatch was formed to bring them together. The Emperor did not require a specially organized force for the sole purpose of fighting Xenos races; he commanded the Space Marine Legions to do so for him. Only after Roboute Guilleman introduced the Codex Astartes and divided chapters into numbers of a thousand Marines would such a problem of dealing with the alien arise, because smaller Chapters of Space Marines were less coordinated and thus less effective on a large scale of campaigns. I think it's safer to say we simply don't know :P . I mean, for all intents and purposes, the Deathwatch could've been in operation prior to the Codex Astartes and functioned much the same, serving the still-young Ordo Xenos faction of the Inquisition. The formation of the Codex didn't really have any direct impact on the Deathwatch. The Ordo Xenos almost never deploys the Deathwatch at Chapter strength, it's a gross waste of precious resources. Rather, they deploy their limited forces in Kill-teams or at most small detachments of maybe a few Kill-teams, spread across entire sub-sectors or even sectors. Making their home Chapters smaller (ie the splitting of the Legions) doesn't affect their style of deployment. It was not until after the Heresy that the Imperium began to face many more internal disputes as the collective glory of Imperial growth and advancement faded, forever tarnished by the rebellion of Horus. As the Space Marines turned their military might against these internal disputes, fewer of their number could be dedicated to fighting the Xenos races. It is for this reason that the Deathwatch as we know now was formally created some time after the Heresy. I disagree. The Deathwatch was not formed because there wasn't 'spare' Chapters to dedicate to xeno-hunting (many of the wars in the Imperium's history have been fought against aliens, in particular the Orks and Eldar, and with 1,000 Chapters to choose from there isn't exactly a shortage), it was formed to get around the problem of the notoriously-independant Atsartes. Inquisitors simply cannot tolerate their inducted forces leaving the field of battle, because their Chapter master decides they've done enough. By having the Deathwatch, the Ordo Xenos has under their little thumb the best warriors in the Imperium, and by mixing Kill-teams so no two battle-brothers are from the same Chapter, they ensure absolute loyalty to the Inquisition. The Ordo Xenos already has enough trouble making sure Deathwatch initiates can manage their mixed loyalties (ie to both the Inquisition and their Chapter at the same time), hence their mixing of Kill-teams to ensure loyalty. Like I have said, we'll never know for sure, but I believe the Deathwatch treaty pre-dates both the Grey Knights and the SoB, and maybe even the formal founding of the Inquisition itself (ie the Emperor created the pact with the newly-created Ordo Xenos prior to Horus). So, a rough time-line as follows (this is just my opinion, feel free to correct me); 1. Emperor starts drawing together the first Inquisitors, possibly writes the Deathwatch treaty and loyalist Marines begin to sign on 2. Horus is defeated, Emperor entombed on Golden Throne. Continues to form Inquisition, with the threat of the daemonic now looming creates the Ordo Malleus as a partner to the Ordo Xenos. Grey Knights are formally created not long after as the Malleus Chamber Militant. If not prior the Deathwatch is formally created, allowing the greater freedom of the newly-created Chapters to persist, while retaining a steady stream of Deathwatch initates for the Ordo Xenos's own use. As far as I can tell, the Deathwatch have never been required to fight rogue Astartes. If a Chapter gets too independant or shows signs of corruption, the Grey Knights are usually deployed to cleanse them. However, it's entirely possible a Chapter gets too closely aligned with an alien race, and thus falls under the purview of the Ordo Xenos (thus bringing about the uncomfortable conflict of Deathwatch vs fellow Astartes, especially problematic if any in the Kill-teams dispatched hail from said rogue Chapter). All in all, I think the Inquisiton usually opts to use other Chapters (ie the Badab War) or if they can isolate the Chapter, a detachment of Grey Knights. 3. In the aftermath of Vandire, a new branch of the Inquisiton (the Ordo Hereticus) is created to hunt down heresy and mutation, as well as policing the belligerent Imperial Church. To keep the Church on-side, the Adeptus Terra ignores the flagrant disregard for the Decree Passive and formally attaches the SoB to the Ordo Hereticus as their Chamber Militant, to prevent any conflict of interest between the Inquisition and the Church. Thus, if another potential Vandire attempts a rise to power, he can't access the SoB, who will instead be used to fight against him. I can sort of see where the OP is coming from. Whilst Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights are a constant force for their respective Ordos, Deathwatch marines come and go, temporarily inducted from various chapters. they stand out from the other Ordos. But I don't think it is a bad thing. Just a different way to go. I just wish they had more attention, but for now they seem more of a fluff idea than an actual army, the most being a WD article. Well, actually only the Grey Knights and Deathwatch are 'purpose built' for purely Inquisitorial missions. The SoB are officially the armed forces of the Imperial Church, and were a pretty radical religious cult prior to their formal induction into the Imperium (while in reality the Ordo Hereticus can always pull rank and take them away from the Eccelisarchy). The transitory nature of service in the Deathwatch is merely a reflection of their older origins (they probably pre-date the Grey Knights, and at least the SoB, by a considerable margin), and their different recruitment practices. I'm sure the Chapters are willing to provide recruits to the Ordo Xenos, and it is viewed as a great honor no doubt, but I'm equally sure they want such experienced veterans back. Thus, both sides benefit from the 'rotating door' style of the Deathwatch; the Ordo Xenos gets to train and deploy the best warriors in the Imperium, while avoiding the long-term strain of the mixed loyalties; and their original Chapters get back experienced veterans whose knowledge can be utilised by the rest of the Chapter (probably the best example is those with experience against Tyranids). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1756211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 I wouldn't call it "take them away", the Sisters pretty much willingly agreed to it. After all, the Ordo Hereticus is there to find and oppose apostasy along with the rogue psykers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1756257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 I wouldn't call it "take them away", the Sisters pretty much willingly agreed to it. After all, the Ordo Hereticus is there to find and oppose apostasy along with the rogue psykers. No, thats not what I meant. By 'take away' I mean if there was a conflict between the Church and the Inquisition, Ordo Hereticus can always remove SoB forces from the authority and control of the Ecclesiarchy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1756449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Normally if the Sisters saw conflict between the church and the Inqusiition, they'd probably side with the Inquisition anyway. They hate apostasy :unsure: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1756466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kettu Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Just want to add that the relic of a bygone age called 'Rogue Trader' metions the Sisters of Battle, give a brief rundown on them rather similar to how they are currently and even includes a picture or two of one perticular lady called Sister Sin putting the Rainbow Marines to the Emperor's judgement (Read: shooting them). Even 2nd edition has a mention of them again. And there is their 2nd edition codex... Personally I find the Ordo Hereticus tacked on after the said fact, not the sisters themselves. As for Deathwatch, if Grey Knights get their own codex, then why DW? I mean, they are a far more common sight then the ultra-rare GK. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1756877 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Normally if the Sisters saw conflict between the church and the Inqusiition, they'd probably side with the Inquisition anyway. They hate apostasy tongue.gif Yeah of course, one step out of line and they will burninate you ;) Just want to add that the relic of a bygone age called 'Rogue Trader' metions the Sisters of Battle, give a brief rundown on them rather similar to how they are currently and even includes a picture or two of one perticular lady called Sister Sin putting the Rainbow Marines to the Emperor's judgement (Read: shooting them). Even 2nd edition has a mention of them again. And there is their 2nd edition codex... Personally I find the Ordo Hereticus tacked on after the said fact, not the sisters themselves. I didn't mean in terms of the real 40k timeline (ie the development from RT to 5th edition today), I mean in terms of the background timeline. The Vandire heresy seems contrived to bring about the formation of the SoB and the Ordo Hereticus; it's quite an odd event in the history of the Imperium. Normally, if someone like Vandire were to assassinate all the other High Lords and start to take over, he'd get assassinated himself by the Inquisition quite early on. As for Deathwatch, if Grey Knights get their own codex, then why DW? I mean, they are a far more common sight then the ultra-rare GK. Grey Knights don't get their own codex, they're simply unit selections from the wider Daemonhunters army. As for Deathwatch, the PDF rules and the new Sternguard probably adequately represent how common they are. Kill-teams are exceedingly rare, they are often used as the 'on the ground' representatives of an Inquisitor and can command anything up to sub-sector fleets and armies. They work alone and often operate without the knowledge of the local authorities, only choosing to reveal themselves if they require additional support. Grey Knights usually deploy in force (ie Terminator command squad and a few regular squads), except in extreme circumstances (such as the drain the 13th Black Crusade is placing on their Chapter, where they have to spread themselves thinly to cover all fronts). So, while you would rarely see Grey Knights, when you did they would be deployed at reasonable strength. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/150760-does-the-deathwatch-seem-out-of-place/#findComment-1757431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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