Mystic against Drop Pods

[revnow]

Actually, if you consider it, combat squadding is disadvantageous for the SM player against a mystically enhanced retinue, especially with squads that are carrying a Heavy or Assault Weapon. Each combat squad only has 4 ablative wound to the weapon instead of 9, which is especially meaningful if the retinue is sporting a plasma cannon or assigning the free shot to some other multi wounding/heavy hitting unit. The only way to protect a heavy weapon or assault weapon combat squad is to hide it behind the drop pod, where it is useless anyways. A Heavy support retinue (PC, 2 HBs, Psycannon, and 2 sages) should (assuming 3 hits from the PC) be able to put 2.5 AP 2 wounds and 7 AP 4 wounds on a combat squad.

[Gentlemanloser]

Rev, I'm not worried aobut Tac's with a Heavy/Assault here. But sternguard with no upgrades.

 

If they've got Lysander than they probably won't CS anyway (more reroll special ammo death) but otherwise it will always save at least half the Sternguard squad from death.

 

Which is just more >_< heaped upon scoring sternguard units podding in on locator beacons.

 

And I used to hate the Eldar army...

[Inquisitor_Hassan]

The Unit is a single unit in the DP, it breaks into two when disembarking. The FAQ says shooting is resolved when the unit disembarks the DP. For me the key phrase is shooting is resolved. A single unit deep strikes (either the DP or the single unit snoozing inside on the way down), yes when they pop out they become two, however you are resolving the shooting for the deep striking of a single unit.

 

May be just wishful thinking on my part, but the guys I 40K with, read the rules as I do, just last night I dakka'ed a 10 man unit down to 4 using this. My opponent left them as a single unit for the reason that we believed that I could have shot at the split units anyway.

 

Rev is right, even with a little less that avg dice I drilled the 10men down to 4, imagine all that shooting into a single unit. The previous week, his sternguard DP'ed and it was the ret that saved my from a turn 3 loss, instead it played out to 7. (I still lost :yes: )

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Isn't the act of combat squadding part of the dismounting? (As the rule states you decide to split into a combat Sqaud as you disembark)

 

No, what is says is you disembark, then choose to combat squad.

 

Mystics in DH codex+DH FAQ say you shoot them as soon as they disembark, before they do anything else.

 

I'd still rule that as part of the disembarkation, you Combat squad. But now that there are two distinct units that have Deep Struck, shouldn't the Mystics get the chance (as quote above) to roll for both distinct units?

 

It's simpler IMO to just resolve the Mystic's shooting first, then allow them to combat squad, shoot, Run etc etc.

 

However, if they claim they disembark as seperate combat squads, then I would simply point out that both units count as having Deepstriked, thus I essentially get to shoot them twice (I just have to target a seperate 1/2 each time).

 

Until you've faced a couple of Podding Sternguard units, you really don't appreciate how utterly gross and devastating, and now seemingly uncounterable they are.

 

Well remember, they are only Marines after all. So, they'll die just as fast as Tac Marines to same shooting/assaults.

 

You can't separate the act of disembarking from the creation of combat squads. The models disembark from the pod as their independent combat squads. You don't open the pod up, place all ten models outside the pod, and then move (or at least demark/indicate) them into two separate units. There aren't three steps here to process. There are just two.

 

1. Place the pod.

2. Place the combat squads.

 

There is no step in this process for the mystic to interrupt. The DH FAQ clearly states that the shots are taken only after disembarkation, and at that point, you have two infantry units and one pod: three separate targets.

 

The DH FAQ also states that the mystically enhanced unit must choose between the pod and the disembarked unit. "Unit" in the singular. Doesn't matter that there are actually two distinct infantry units that have disembarked, you get to choose just one to shoot at. Them's the breaks.

 

Ah no Number6, this is where it gets interesting. 'Unit' refers to the whole drop-podded squad, not individual 'combat squads' of the whole unit.

 

Hence, I would interpret that as 'pile the chumps out of Drop Pod. Choose to shoot Drop Pod or squad of chumps. After shooting resolved, chumps may break into seperate units, Run, shoot etc' .

[Sahansral]

Hence, I would interpret that as 'pile the chumps out of Drop Pod. Choose to shoot Drop Pod or squad of chumps. After shooting resolved, chumps may break into seperate units, Run, shoot etc' .

 

I would interpret it the same way. The FAQ states "unit" not "one of the units". No combat squad-ing, no leaving of independant characters.

[Gentlemanloser]

No, what is says is you disembark, then choose to combat squad.

 

From Current SM 'Dex;

 

The decision to split units into combat squads <snip> The one exception to this is a unit that arives by Drop Pod. the player can choose to split such a unit into combat squads when it disembarks from the Drop Pod

 

Mystics Rule;

 

a deep striking unit enters play within <snip> may immediatley take a free shot at them.

 

DH FAQ;

 

The shooting is resolved after the Drop Pod lands and the passengers have disembarked

 

There is only one 'unit' arriving, so only one Mystic Roll, and only one free shot. As you have to disembark *before* the Mystics shoot, the SM player can deploy the unit in Combat Squads.

 

I think it's clear that by RAW you can make 1/2 your DPing SM squad immune to Mystic retaliation. What I'd like clarified is if this is 'Working as Intended' or an oversight.

 

As it just adds so much more 'cheese' to deploying units like Sternguard in Drop Pods. How Else are we supposed to stop them always landing within rapid fire range and literally obliterating whatever they want in our armies?

[number6]

The DH FAQ also states that the mystically enhanced unit must choose between the pod and the disembarked unit. "Unit" in the singular. Doesn't matter that there are actually two distinct infantry units that have disembarked, you get to choose just one to shoot at. Them's the breaks.

 

Ah no Number6, this is where it gets interesting. 'Unit' refers to the whole drop-podded squad, not individual 'combat squads' of the whole unit.

 

Hence, I would interpret that as 'pile the chumps out of Drop Pod. Choose to shoot Drop Pod or squad of chumps. After shooting resolved, chumps may break into seperate units, Run, shoot etc' .

 

Firstly, see Gentlemanloser's post directly above this one.

 

Secondly, where is the step where the Marine player places all 10 models outside of the pod before deciding whether or not to employ Combat Squads? Answer: There is no such step. The player must disembark the models as Combat Squads, or not as Combat Squads. It's an atomic operation. There is no "process" of combat squadding. Once the pod hits the table and we see the Marines on the table, we know for certain whether we are looking at one unit of 10 or two units of 5.

 

I'm certain it's a sloppy verbiage/rules oversight in the DH FAQ -- and by now, you really should not be surprised at this behavior from GW :) -- that is causing us grief right now. So we have to go with one of two things: RAW or RAI. If we go RAW, you get one shot at either the pod or the "unit", singular. RAI, I think you have an argument that the intention is for the mystically-enhanced unit to shoot at all the models that disembark, regardless of the number of units that disembark. But then the question becomes: How do you resolve this situation? There is no game precedent helping us out here. Does the mystic-unit get to take two separate barrages of fire, one against each unit? Does the mystic-unit get to shoot just once but distribute wounds around the two units?

 

What is the mystic actually doing anyway? Is it sensing individual units that enter play or individual instances of deep striking?

 

I think the RAW and RAI mean to converge on the latter, and thus the easiest thing to do is to follow the precedent set in the DH FAQ and say that, if combat squads disembark from the pod, the mystic player gets to choose one barrage of fire on any one of the pod, combat squad A, or combat squad B. All other solutions are just too complicated to rule about consistently.

 

Of course, there is a caveat. Whatever you and your opponent agree to do in this situation is just fine. :)

[Gentlemanloser]

I'd hope the intention would be to blast the Marines as the doors open, before they can walk half out towards your Mystics somehow immune to retaliation.

 

So the Mystic's free shot is resolved before the unit disembarks, but as if the unit was in play. As until now, it didn't really ever make a difference (unless the disembarkation got the unit into cover, and allowed cover saves for things like Plasma Weapons).

 

But sadly RAW has it that half of the squad can brazenly walk towards the Mystics, immune to thier DS sensing retaliation. :/ Bah...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The way I see it (btw, thanks for clearing up your side of the argument Number6), there are two options;

 

Option 1; The Mystic shooting is resolved on the whole 'unit', not the individual models. Therefore, wounds/hits from both are clumped together

 

Option 2; They get to split up (and thus become seperate 'units'), but as they all count as Deepstriking, the Mystics get to choose between just shooting the Drop Pod, or shooting both Combat squads seperately (ie shooting Combat squad A, finish, then shoot again with all guns at Combat squad :o.

 

 

Making half the unit immune to the Mystics is blatant RAW lawyering, it's a stupid loophole, therefore following either of the two maxims above solves the problem. :cuss the rule was DESIGNED to counter Deepstriking units... :tu:

 

Now excuse me, I have to stick yet another needle into the GW voodoo doll. I don't know if it works but it makes me feel better ;) ;)

[Cedric]

The Drop Pod itself is a separate unit from the one(s)disembarking, and according to the FAQ you have to choose between either the deepstriking pod or the deepstriking squad.

 

Combat squadding the units merely presents an additional target to shoot at, not an extra opportunity to shoot more than one target.

 

If the Mystic would have been allowed to shoot at ALL deep striking targets, they wouldn't have FAQed it so that you must choose between pod & squad.

[Charred Heretic]

I think that #6 stated the strongest case in his first comment.

The separation into combat squads is not fully distinguished as a "step" or a "repositioning".

 

To play the UN-separated DS squad on the table as existing during a distinct "step", or to play the UN-separated squad as existing temporarily in a "playable position" is to add a detail to the game that is not sufficiently distinguished.

It is mostly presumption to play it that way. The text support is insufficient.

 

More importantly, we have this:

 

Actually, if you consider it, combat squadding is disadvantageous for the SM player against a mystically enhanced retinue, especially with squads that are carrying a Heavy or Assault Weapon. Each combat squad only has 4 ablative wound to the weapon instead of 9, which is especially meaningful if the retinue is sporting a plasma cannon or assigning the free shot to some other multi wounding/heavy hitting unit. The only way to protect a heavy weapon or assault weapon combat squad is to hide it behind the drop pod, where it is useless anyways.