Some Tough Rules Questions

[BadLlama]

A few questions here for a Tau player friend of mine.

 

When do dedicated transports count as kill points? Do they count at all? Only when Destroyed or exploded?

 

Do skimmers give a cover save to targets when fired through? Are they considered to be floating above the field or are they True LOS and grant cover as a squad being fired through would?

 

If an ejection system is bought for a crisis suit, does the squad count as a kill point only when the suit and ejected pilot are both dead? Does the pilot count as a separate kill point?

 

Are gun drones considered to be a separate kill point when they split off from the vehicles they are normally attached to?

 

And some space marine questions:

 

Is a command squad considered to be part of a marine captain HQ choice for Dawn of War deployment or do you have to have it come in from reserves on the first turn. Is a dedicated transport for a captain and a command squad able to deploy with the squad/captain in dawn of war?

 

Are 2 sucessful reserves rolls at the same time, for the same table edge, the only way to have a group of outflanking space maine scouts inside a outflanking Land Speeder Storm?

 

Can you attach a Space marine IC to a squad with a drop pod Dedicated transport in order for them to deploy as part of the squads drop pod assault?

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

When destroyed or exploded.

True LOS.

I don't know. If he's a new unit, 2 KP. Otherwise, 1.

Yes.

Captain and Command squad w/ transport is 1 HQ choice.

No, they are in the transport. Roll for the Storm only.

Yes.

[HiveFleetEzekial]

#5

 

Yes, they are 1 HQ FOC slot. For the purposes of DoW deployment, though, they are all seperate HQ choices. Note, DoW explicetly says Choices, not slots like other deployment types. Vehicles are seperate from whatever selection they're bought for.

 

This can be really hard on IG players. One full troop slot (infantry platoon) could count for 3-7 troop choices, meaning they'd have to cut back and only place part of that FOC slot, if they place anything at all.

[ShinyRhino]

Are gun drones considered to be a separate kill point when they split off from the vehicles they are normally attached to?

 

Fromthe Tau Codex 5th Edition FAQ:

 

Q. Do all of a vehicle’s drones need to be

destroyed before the vehicle gives up its full

victory points?

 

A. Disengaged Drones have no effect on how

many victory points the vehicle gives up. This is

based solely on the condition of the actual

vehicle model.

[BadLlama]

Are 2 sucessful reserves rolls at the same time, for the same table edge, the only way to have a group of outflanking space maine scouts inside a outflanking Land Speeder Storm?

 

Let me clarify with this one. The scouts are part of a split 10 man squad. That means, when deployed, it becomes two 5 man squads. The transport is not a dedicated transport choice and counts as a fast attack option. Can this still be done with only one reserve roll?

[WarpSpawn]

Not 100% sure but I think the 10 scouts would require 2 reserve rolls in total. 1 for the 5 in the speeder and 1 for the other 5.

 

You can split the squad during deployment and put a combat squad in the speeder, leaving the other 5 on foot. As you specified the passengers for the speeder during deployment, this comes on as a single reserve. It does not have to be a dedicated transport.

 

Pretty sure this would not include the other combat squad, meaning they have to be rolled for seperately.

[BadLlama]

Would it be possible to split the squad during deployment, placing the combat squad in the Speeder and have the other five deploy normally on the table or would both halves of the squad come in from reserve?

[WarpSpawn]

I believe you could deploy one and use the other in reserve but the combat squad rules could be clearer.

[BadLlama]

Thank you all very much for these clarifications! I'm still curious about the Tau ejection system and if it allows the unit to not count as a kill point until the pilot is dead. It seems somewhat similar to Sergeant Chronus being inside a tank but jumping out at the last second.

[bystrom]

Having reread the rules, I think that you can't split a squad until you're actually about to put them on the table:

The decision to split the unit into combat squads, [...], must be made when the unit is deployed. Both combat squads can be deployed in separate locations.

Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, [...]

What this means is that the scout squad (and land speeder storm) can either:

1) When deployed normally, or the scouts use infiltrate, the scouts have the option to split into combat squads when deployed, either normally or when infiltrating.

 

2) When in reserve, roll separately, one die for the scout squad and one for the storm, and when a unit arrives, either outflanking or normally (decided upon deployment), the scouts have the option of splitting into combat squads and deploying in two separate locations (though they have to come from the same flank when outflanking).

 

So I don't think you can deploy one combat squad and keep the other in reserve, nor split a combat squad when in reserve, so a combat squad can ride a non-dedicated transport directly from reserve. Hopefully I've missed something, or they'll clarify the rule with regards to reserves and deployment.

[WarpSpawn]

The reason I say it is unclear is mainly because some of the implications are in direct contravention of the rules for preparing resrves, without any suggestion they do not obey most of these rules. For example, if you only split them when they set foot on the table, you cannot legally put them in the transport if you have 10 models. They are also not given permission to enter the transport later on, just before deploying them from reserves.

 

I'm having a hard time believing that a 10 man squad cannot combat squad in reserve, so that 5 can ride a transport (dedicated or otherwise).

[nighthawks]

I am under the impression that reserves are not "deployed" and as such units can not be split into combat squads if held in reserve (neither being placed into nor arriving from reserves counts as "deployment". units are deployed OR held in reserve, from which they move on from an edge or deepstrike if allowed). the operative exception to this being the explicit statement in C:SM 5 that units arriving by drop pod MAY split AFTER landing.

 

the scout squad in the storm must be a 5-man squad, by this reading, and yes, they may be rolled for simultaneously IF they were declared as a combo when placed into reserves. (this is true of any legal unit/IC/transport reserves situation - if they may legally join up and fit in the trans, then they can be grouped when placed into reserves and rolled for together.) I don't think I am wrong, but if I am, please let me know.

[Praeger]

The way it works is the same as any other unit using, say, a HS land raider.

 

The storm is NOT a dedicated transport.

 

So for 5 scouts to be deployed in it you need to make 2 reserve rolls and hope that you get both units at the same time.

 

How it would work:

 

Roll for reserves.

 

Did the scouts roll come up? Choose how you will deploy the unit, as 1x 10man squad or as 2x 5man squads.

Did the Storm roll come up? If so you may deploy this with a squad inside it.

 

Deploy all reserves.

 

This is the same procedure for IC who deepstrike in with termies, or marines arriving with landraiders etc

[nurglez]

hate to sound simple minded, but for the landspeeder storm with scouts, why not jus take a 5 man scout squad?

 

sure if you take 2 storms that would mean having 2 troop selections of scouts, but is the only way u could mount them in the storm's before they pop on.

[Anxt]

The way it works is the same as any other unit using, say, a HS land raider.

 

The storm is NOT a dedicated transport.

 

So for 5 scouts to be deployed in it you need to make 2 reserve rolls and hope that you get both units at the same time.

 

How it would work:

 

Roll for reserves.

 

Did the scouts roll come up? Choose how you will deploy the unit, as 1x 10man squad or as 2x 5man squads.

Did the Storm roll come up? If so you may deploy this with a squad inside it.

 

Deploy all reserves.

 

This is the same procedure for IC who deepstrike in with termies, or marines arriving with landraiders etc

 

Actually this is nolonger the case in 5th ed, see pg 94 "Preparing Reserves"

 

In Brief ...

During deployment you must clearly explain the organisation of your reserves to your opponent

First specify if any ICs in reserve are joining the unit, if so they are rolled for together not separately

Similarly, specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any infantry and/or ICs, if so roll once for the whole lot

 

So .. split combat squads and state if one is in the Storm at the start of the battle then when the time comes roll for each unit separately, either all three deployed individually or one roll for storm and 5 guys and second roll for the other 5 guys. Note that you must tell your opponent at the start of the battle what you will be doing when it becomes time to roll for reserves not decide halfway through the battle.

[nighthawks]

So .. split combat squads and state if one is in the Storm at the start of the battle then when the time comes roll for each unit separately, either all three deployed individually or one roll for storm and 5 guys and second roll for the other 5 guys. Note that you must tell your opponent at the start of the battle what you will be doing when it becomes time to roll for reserves not decide halfway through the battle.

 

Can you support this? note the following:

 

"The decision to split the unit into combat squads... must be made when the unit is deployed." - C:SM special rules, P51

 

"When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy... units... and instead leave them in reserve." - BRB Preparing Reserves, P94

 

also note that reserves do not deploy when available, they "arrive." (per P94)

 

you cannot split a unit into combat squads if it is held in reserve. (drop podding units from C:SM being an exception.)

 

sorry.

[Mordekiem]

Is a command squad considered to be part of a marine captain HQ choice for Dawn of War deployment or do you have to have it come in from reserves on the first turn. Is a dedicated transport for a captain and a command squad able to deploy with the squad/captain in dawn of war?

It counts as 3 units so you can only deploy one of them in DOW missions.

[Reglor]

So .. split combat squads and state if one is in the Storm at the start of the battle then when the time comes roll for each unit separately, either all three deployed individually or one roll for storm and 5 guys and second roll for the other 5 guys. Note that you must tell your opponent at the start of the battle what you will be doing when it becomes time to roll for reserves not decide halfway through the battle.

 

Can you support this? note the following:

 

"The decision to split the unit into combat squads... must be made when the unit is deployed." - C:SM special rules, P51

 

"When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy... units... and instead leave them in reserve." - BRB Preparing Reserves, P94

 

also note that reserves do not deploy when available, they "arrive." (per P94)

 

you cannot split a unit into combat squads if it is held in reserve. (drop podding units from C:SM being an exception.)

 

sorry.

 

You forgot one step.

 

"Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any on of the units arriving and deploys it, ...."

 

Looks like you can split the unit when deploying from reserves.

 

As far as the question goes, your squad can't be split until it is deployed, and you don't deploy unitl after you roll, so you can't put a half of a ten man scout squad into a storm landspeeder while in resevers to roll for the group together, you have to hope that both come up on the same turn.

 

On the other hand, if you had a 5 man scout squad you could put the scouts in the storm and roll for them as on unit.

[Trekari]

When do dedicated transports count as kill points? Do they count at all? Only when Destroyed or exploded?

 

If the status of the transport is either "Wrecked" or "Exploded" then it counts as a killpoint.

 

Are 2 sucessful reserves rolls at the same time, for the same table edge, the only way to have a group of outflanking space maine scouts inside a outflanking Land Speeder Storm?

 

Given that you cannot Combat Squad a unit until you are actually DEPLOYING them (which is AFTER the reserve roll), if the entire Scout unit cannot fit inside the LSS, then you must roll separately for the Scouts and LSS. If both rolls are successful, then you may Combat Squad at that time and deploy half the unit inside the LSS and the other half, somewhere else.

 

 

 

Nighthawks, you are absolutely incorrect on the "units arrive from reserves, not deploy" comment. If you're going to cite the page number as a reference, please do make sure it actually supports your position:

 

Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player may then proceed to move his other units as normal.

[BadLlama]

I generally take 5 tac squads and one scout squad as my troop choices. That means to get the most out of the scout squad, I need to combat squad it into a 5 man cc squad in the LSS and a 5 man Sniper squad. That's why taking a 5 man squad is not really an option for me.

 

It seems as though the LSS+Combat squad scouts is pretty useless in Dawn of War deployment. The LSS would be unusable as a transport until turn 3 of a game if I were unable to combat squad while in reserve. If I kept the squad together, half would be ineffective at what the other half was doing. Even bringing them in through reserves would be terrible as, from what I understand, I would have to:

 

First, deploy all three units each counting as moving from coming on to the board from reserve, losing the scout moves for all three.

 

Second: Move the CC scouts into the LSS and move the LSS towards a target.

 

Third: Finally assault with the CC Scouts from within the LSS.

 

It looks like for them to even be effective, it would take three turns if attempting to come on the table from reserves.

 

Here's another question for you all.

 

If a Fast, Skimmer transport is moving at flat out ie over 12 inches and wrecks due to failing a dangerous terrain roll, do the troops within emergency disembark or do they die because their transport is moving flat out, preventing them from leaving it under normal disembarkment rules.

[nighthawks]

Nighthawks, you are absolutely incorrect on the "units arrive from reserves, not deploy" comment. If you're going to cite the page number as a reference, please do make sure it actually supports your position:

 

Once all of the units have been rolled for, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described later. Then he picks another unit and deploys it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player may then proceed to move his other units as normal.

 

well, as Reglor found - I seem to have been mistaken. BUT, BRB P94 contains all of the relevant quotes - I simply missed the "and deploys it part" due to the "not to deploy and instead leave them in reserve" part.

 

I'm glad to be proven wrong.

[retlaw83]

Q. Do all of a vehicle’s drones need to be

destroyed before the vehicle gives up its full

victory points?

 

A. Disengaged Drones have no effect on how

many victory points the vehicle gives up. This is

based solely on the condition of the actual

vehicle model.

 

Victory points is not a kill point.

[WarpSpawn]

Unfortunately, if you take the combat squad rules literally, you cannot put combat squads in transports when they come in from reserves at all (drop pods being the only exception). There reasons are as follows:

 

1) Transport potentially lacks capacity for the whole 10 man squad. You must declare what squad goes in what transport during deployment. Clearly the 10 man squad will not fit in a speeder storm or a razorback. Same applies for 10 man terminator squads and landraiders. There is also nothing (aside from preparing reserves) that gives permission to embark them whilst off the table, thus the only way this can happen is if you roll seperately for the squad and the transport, then embark them normally when they are on the board.

 

2) The possibility of having 2 squads in a single transport. Even a transport that has sufficient capacity to fit all 10 models in, you still have to decide this during deployment, when preparing reserves. This creates the problem that when the transport comes on, if you split them into combat squads, you have 2 units in a single transport. This is clearly not permitted by the transport rules. You also cannot keep them together, then split them when they disembark, as we are told that drop pods are the only ones that can do this.

 

Aside from the already cited example of drop pods, there is nothing in the combat squad rules that allows them to ignore the rules for preparing reserves.

 

I believe all combat squad choices (besides drop pods) are supposed to be made during the deployment phase, even if RAW does not fully suppport this, otherwise you end up with some frankly bizzarre limitations on transports and combat squads in reserve.

[Iron_Chaos_Brute]

No, combat squad is when the squad hits the table.

If it's in a LR, just keep it one squad, then split up when they get out. (This does not mean that you can disembark 5 guys and leave the rest inside).

[nighthawks]

No, combat squad is when the squad hits the table.

If it's in a LR, just keep it one squad, then split up when they get out. (This does not mean that you can disembark 5 guys and leave the rest inside).

wrong.

when deployed. which, as was proved above, is when they arrive from reserves or start the table on the board. they cannot be rolled for and embarked IN a transport (not including Drop Pod) and then split, in any way. it cannot be done.