A pain in my back Deamons

[@BLISSI15K5]

Deamons are a pain in me back i need help and fast

he usally has a space wolve killing army

 

1 lord of change

1 skull taker

 

1 deamonete chariotte

1 deamonete squad

2 bloodleter squad

 

flamers of Tzeenech sorry imposible word to spell

 

Big tank killing thingy.............soulgrinder

 

This is my well a double figured batle with him and im letting the wolve brothers down so i must

beat him.

Ive never ever won against him i dont wont to go on like that.

 

PS sorry about my spelling

[Guest WG Vrox]

When do you play him next? And how many points? Also let us know what you have to work with.

[Wolf89]

Well can you tell me what you're using? The upgrades he gave the soulgrinder? (did he use a S10 24" shot at any point? A large blast S8 shot at 36"? or just his little flamer template thing at S6 AP4?), was his LoC shooting at multiple targets the same turn? It's little details like these that'll help me re-create his list and then further help you how to counter it.

 

Also is there a limit to what you're allowed to use? what I mean by this is how many models do you have, are you allowed to proxy, that sort of thing so I know if I need to go off of your list and do tactics alone, or just re-do your list. This would also help if you posted the list you've been using.

 

First lets start out at the top:

 

LoC: Possibly THE best GD if used correctly, both in 40k and WHFB. The ability to shoot multiple ranged weaponry, as well at different targets just is nasty. A 3++ invulnerable, the ability to instant kill IC's, and flight are just a few of the things these guys have that strike fear in the enemy. Probably THE best for of defense against this thing isn't by shooting it (save that for the rest of the army), but by assaulting it with a nice WGBG retinue equipped with WTN's and other goodies to bring this sucker down... now this doesn't mean don't shoot into him with your 2-4 assault cannons before charging, no go right ahead, you might just kill him that way too (my squads usually are the smaller cheaper kind with a WGBL, so that's 3 AC's one at BS5, so 5.33 regular hit and 3.33 hit from the WGBL (8.67 hits), then 4.34 wounds, 2.9 saves so that's at least one wound out of 4... :P

 

Skulltaker: Always a nasty fellow, believed to be a total badass, and with a good retinue (I've seen him perform best on juggers along with some bloodcrushers as ablative wounds) will cut through anything and then some. Since you didn't mention anything he rides on/in I'll assume he's on foot with a bloodletter squad. Shooting is all you want to do against this guy, combat he is just crazy powerful and while he may not be a GD, hiding in a unit and dishing out almost the same carange as one is the scary part.

 

His 3rd HQ (we playing space wolves? :P ) the Herald of Slaanesh on a chariot can be VERY nasty... 5 wounds, I 7, 6 attacks is just brutal, making it also count as Cavalry (12" assault) is even more brutal... did I mention it also has furious charge?! :) The biggest drawback to taking one of these is that they can't join a squad, so it'll be out in the open, and a T4 4+ 5++ won't last too long to a good hail of fire, be sure to keep your distance, especially if it has soporific musk (hit & run) it can decimate units and with pavane can make it hard for your plans to go according to order. I really think this is the biggest threat shooting wise and should be sought after first (well when it drops) as it'll cover a lot of ground fast and WILL get the charge the next turn.

 

Onto elites, the flamers of Tzeentch: These guys have lots of shots, (can I get a model count please?) on a squad size of 9 (just going off the Tzeentch god's number here... quite expensive at 315 points, but you never know), they'll put out 27 S4 AP4 shots, but you DO get your save, so out of those, 18 hit, then 9 wound, you saving 6 leaving 3 dead... not that impressive for 315 points eh? and with only 1 wound, a terrible WS, initiative, and overall suckfest in HtH, you can pummel these guys no problem and should do so with any cc unit, even SW scouts will make short work of these pushovers. Did I mention their range is effectively 18" and a template weapon?... yea... they'll be in charge range.

 

Troops already? oh ok, Daemonettes now: These girls are mean, fast, deadly, but what's this? T3 5++? hmm... not so scary now?... These girls have rending, fleet, assault/defensive nades so your options are limited here, the usual tactic of hiding in the trees doesn't apply to these chicks, they must be dealt with by shooting, and if you think they'll get the charge off on you, I suggest you charge first. 10 Daemonettes charging is 40 attacks, 20 hitting marines, 6.67 wounds (yay only S3) 3.33 of which are rending wounds. So that's about 4 marines dead from normal wounds and 3 rending. If you charged them, that's only 30 attacks against you, 15 hitting, 5 wounds, 2.5 rends, so 3 marines dead...

 

Bloodletters: Ah my pride and joy, the beloved spillers of blood, the bloodletters. These guys are CC dreams, handling PA anything like a hot knife through butter, furious charge, WS5, and power weapons for all, a normal 8-man squad will swing for 24 attacks, hitting an standard marine 16 times, then killing 10.67 outright... they'll go from PA squad to PA squad without thought. The biggest 2 drawbacks to these guys are they don't have assault nades, so hiding in cover will ensure you'll go first, possibly taking a good amount with you before they swing back; and they don't have anti-tank/armor (unless you pay for 1 model to get rending, and at 3 rending attacks on the charge, you're not doing much :) )

 

This leaves the heavy support, aka the soul grinder: These things I have rarely used, I prefer the brute force of a daemon prince over a soulgrinder, main reasons being it's a vehicle, one good lascannon shot and it's gone, it's big so LoS'ing is extremely hard, and it still has to DS in, so being such a large monstrosity, you may have some mis-haps occuring. That all said and done, these things put out a lot of dakka, but you should be getting a lot of saves (harvester won't penetrate your armor), and the higher S and AP shots are either 1 shot, or a large blast. Either way it's BS3 so it won't hit TOO often, just 50% of the time on average. I don't see a problem with taking a dread of your own, or some juiced up CC unit to take the grinder down, but a nicely placed melta should do just fine as well (rear armor is 11 remember that).

 

Again this is just some general insight, providing more details will help me further help you. A key thing I always remember is take advantage of cover, never move towards the BL's, take your shots, hope you're outside 12" and enjoy the free points as you hail bolter rounds into them for 2 turns. Skully may survive, but that's what plasma/melta is for.

 

Keep making him spread out his army, it's hard for a daemon list to work well in small clusters, and without support you can pick off units one by one with ease. It's dinner time, I'm hungry, then I've got tennis. I might check before I go but this is all I got for you right now.

[OnlyInDeath]

Wolf, I think you have flamers of tzeench and pink horrors mixed up here and there throughout your description there :whistling: Pink horrors have the plethora of shots, flamers are usually small units (3-4) with flamer templates and no armorsave or cover save. I've had units of 3 of these bastards take out an entire GH squad in one round of shooting....best defense is to take these guys out with shooting right away, so that they cant "jetbike" up to your troops. Dedicate a squad of GH's to whittling these guys down to nothing or otherwise you WILL feel the hurt. There's just not much that SW's can do to not take auto wounds on these guys if you dont outright kill them. But thank god they are terrible in close combat and only T3, so take them out....fast

[Wolf89]

Wolf, I think you have flamers of tzeench and pink horrors mixed up here and there throughout your description there :lol: Pink horrors have the plethora of shots, flamers are usually small units (3-4) with flamer templates and no armorsave or cover save. I've had units of 3 of these bastards take out an entire GH squad in one round of shooting....best defense is to take these guys out with shooting right away, so that they cant "jetbike" up to your troops. Dedicate a squad of GH's to whittling these guys down to nothing or otherwise you WILL feel the hurt. There's just not much that SW's can do to not take auto wounds on these guys if you dont outright kill them. But thank god they are terrible in close combat and only T3, so take them out....fast

I don't remember what I said, but this is solved easily. :lol:

 

Elites, Flamers of Tzeentch: 3-12 models, Warpfire (S4 AP4 3 shots), Breath of Chaos (flamer template, 4+ no armor/cover saves, glancing armor on 4+), jump infantry. (also T is 4)

 

Troops, Pink Horrors of Tzeentch: 5-20 models, Warpfire (same as above), can upgrade a model to Changeling (nasty little bugger).

 

So I don't recall what I said, and I'm too lazy to re-read :whistling: , so I'll just post something different.

 

Against Flamers, they jump around, popping stuff and flamering things to death likely will DS further away since they are jumpers, but if they want to be effective using their templates instead of warpfire, they'll be around 18" or closer, helping you get in range to charge, if they're too far away, just shoot them and hope to burst through the T4 4++. Again please get that list on here so we know exactly what you're dealing with.

 

Against Horrors, you're likely to want to charge these guys, their shooting isn't as deadly compared to the flamers (note math up in my post somewhere) and they're even weaker in HtH (T3 mmm). More likely than not they'll include the Changeling (at 5 points why the hell not) which will make them very risky to shoot at considering you could end up shooting your own guys!. They aren't fast, so with their 18" shooting range, they'll likely be close all the time, or way in the back holding an objective (if the latter is true then this is a job for wolf scouts ;) ).

 

Hope I got it right this time... too little sleep, not enough coffee.

[Captain Malachi]

Just a quick thing to add to wolf89s point about it being a bad idea to shoot the changeling, bear in mind it can use its power on ANY troop that shoots within range, not only the ones that are shooting at it, also, by RAW, it can be used every time a unit in range shoots, pretty good for 5 points huh? Oh, and onlyindeath, flamers do get warpfire as well as breath of chaos, it's just not used very often in my experience.

[Grey Mage]

Against the changeling use templates... alot of templates. Against everything else use templates, bolters, and better yet heavy bolters. Keep your plasma in reserve for taking out things like bloodcrushers who have that 3+ *real* armorsave. Treat each and every one of them like a termie... make them roll lots and lots of saves as fast as humanly possible. Thats how I win against demons regularly.... though Ill admit its harder with my wolves then it is with my eldar.

 

Consider taking attack bikes in full squadrons, or landspeeders in fullsquadrons *Tornados*. Whirwhirlinds have good range and Str. Lots of bolter hunters. Decline first turn, refuse to the seize the iniative unless your fast enough to canvas the board with shots. Otherwise you want to know where hes going to be so you can kill him. Always decline first turn if your using a drop pod list though..... that way you get to choose your battles instead of him.

 

One last thing- remember the buddy system. Always support any pack with another pack. A unit left on its own is likely a unit destroyed.

[@BLISSI15K5]

well sorry for my lack of info but i got

 

20 blood claws

20 grey hunters

4 bikers

1 atack bike

1 wolf preist

1 rino

1 pred D

1 pred A

1 termi squad normal asualt cannon SPELLING

1 wolf lord

 

well the soul Grinder has the streanth 10 atack a harvister

lord of chang is well 350+ points upgraded to what ever makes things die so its got all upgrades

It is also 1000 point batle my HQ wolf priest

wolf lord

[Grey Mage]

Consider getting a whirlwind? Go heavy on your grey hunters.... take both predators. Youll want the fire support. If you go bloodclaws make a single maxed out squad, with fists.... Ive seen them take down more Soul Grinders then I can count. Termies are kinda a waste here, unless you use them as Pack Leaders. Youll probly want the rhino for one of your GH packs.

[Wolf89]

well sorry for my lack of info but i got

 

20 blood claws

20 grey hunters

4 bikers

1 atack bike

1 wolf preist

1 rino

1 pred D

1 pred A

1 termi squad normal asualt cannon SPELLING

1 wolf lord

 

well the soul Grinder has the streanth 10 atack a harvister

lord of chang is well 350+ points upgraded to what ever makes things die so its got all upgrades

It is also 1000 point batle my HQ wolf priest

wolf lord

 

Just explaining his LoC, Soul Grinder, and taking into account a bare bones skully, that's already 650 points, leaving only 350 for troops... so 3 flamers (bare minimum) you're up to 710 points, that leaves 290 points left, then bare bones herald of slaanesh on a chariot is another 65 points so we're at 775 with 225 left... for 3 troops... hmmm... bare minimum (5 in each squad) of 1x Daemonettes and 2x BL squads is putting you at 230 points, that's 5 points over 1000... bare minimum stuff... so you may want to check his list.

 

Also with so few points in troops, they've got to be small... so your biggest threats are going to be the herald of slaanesh on a chariot, the LoC, and possibly skully (slow, with only 5 bloodletters should die fast).

[Vassakov]

Well, as they say "If there's something strange/in your neighborhood/Who ya gonna call?/GHOSTBUSTERS!"

 

Or, indeed, the Moste Holie Orders of His Emperors =][=nquisition. If you don't mind selling out, that is.

 

Anyway, heres the plan:

 

=][= - Sanctuary, 2x Mystic, Hierophant

 

5x GK's, Justicar has Psycannon Bolts, 2x Psycannons.

 

Right, deploy the =][= and his bodyguard, then put the Knights so that THE ENTIRE SQUAD is within 3" - it is possible, but may require all the units being in base to base contact. Deploy that unit centrally.

 

When his Daemons deep strike, start rolling for the Mystics. If they are too close they get 6 S6, AP4 Inv save ignoring shots, plus 4 bolt shots and 2 S4 AP4 Inv save ignoring shots. That should thin them down considerably, as only Skully would get any save of any kind. And that goes for every one of his units that DS's. Finally, ensure your =][= keeps using Sanctuary - it prevents any Daemon from moving within 3" for any reason and they cannot draw LoS through it either - as long as the dice hold that unit is, for all intents and purposes indestructible. Unless a shot from the Soulgrinder scatters onto them, that is.

 

It's dirty and it's nasty, and useless against anything BUT daemons (and the Avatar - but he doesn't DS and Reapers will nobble them anyhow.)

[Wolf89]

It's dirty and it's nasty, and useless against anything BUT daemons (and the Avatar - but he doesn't DS and Reapers will nobble them anyhow.)

 

Only 1 thing wrong with your above post, and that is this unit is great against ANY DS'ing unit, daemons or not, drop pods, what have you... but it's not something you want to spend TOO much on... normally 40~ points is all you need to spend on these models, if it's for a tournament or against daemons then buying sanctuary won't be a problem and should be bought; because you're likely to see chaos there... lash anyone? ;)

 

Again this unit is highly unorthodox for Space Wolves, they're rather loose with their honor than by calling in a little numb skull of a guy that helps them fight.

 

This will do the trick though... oh believe you me it will... If you have the gall to give the inquisitor a force weapon... then you can instantly kill anyone in the daemon army (eternal warrior has no effect) so you can kill his 350+ point LoC... hard to do at S3 and is more expensive than the cheap unit is to begin with... but something to think about.