Effectiveness of all Scout Armies in the new C:SM

[Jackelope King]

Going back to your proposed #3 point. Instead of having a "Scout HQ" provide the LSS as a dedicated transport, why wouldn't a Scout HQ on a bike have the Scouts be able to mount on bikes also for a troops choice? The regular Capt can, so I wouldn't see it as a stretch for a Scout HQ and his "force".

 

I think this is a pretty good suggestion too. The whole idea is to make it so that the two scout supporting units (Land Speeder Storm and the Bikes) aren't competing so brutally for slots on the Force Organization Chart. The fact that a scout army can't field both is the issue, especially for an army with so few selections.

[greatcrusade08]

The thing I don't agree with is the addtion of the LSS as a dedicated transport. Scouts already get the option of inflitrate and outflank why would they need a dedicated transport? Mounting them at the begining of the game and moving them seems good enough for me. And as its been presented above, shouldn't we be using this list more like a game of chess? Manouverability and cunning is what will win you a battle with a all scout force. Gimmicks IMO will only get you "so far". I really like what GC08 did with his list. One full bike squad and two LSS's. Mobility, and you can still mount a squad (if they're alive) to contest/grab a late game objective.

 

Going back to your proposed #3 point. Instead of having a "Scout HQ" provide the LSS as a dedicated transport, why wouldn't a Scout HQ on a bike have the Scouts be able to mount on bikes also for a troops choice? The regular Capt can, so I wouldn't see it as a stretch for a Scout HQ and his "force".

 

The thing about the land speeder storms, is not that they are transports, because as you said scouts can infiltrate. Also they cannot be taken as dedicated transports, so the argument of can you deploy troops in non-dedicated transports will light up (according to RAW then no you cant).

But if used as assult vehicles they are invaluable, the fire support and special launchers which confer a minus 2 to enemys LD will help take ground (obviously you have to win the combat), but CC scouts can kick up 5 bolt pistol shots and 15 cc attacks in a single turn, so against small units or half units left guarding objectives they become invaluable!.

All this and its abilty to perform certain roles on the battlefield such as tankhunters with multi-meltas is fantastic, however they fact that you cannot take more than one per 'slot' is its biggest weakness, i also would have expected it to have thicker armour if intended to be a transport, but thats neither here nor there.

 

I also agree about the scout HQ, of course its entirely possible to field the master of recruits or tenth captain in power armour and still be fluffy, it would be nice to have the options available, hopefully they will put out an FAQ about taking scout bikes as troops when you have a captain on bike, this would sort alot of problems.

 

Apart from this the only serious problem i see would be anti-tank, against monoliths or LR's the only real threat would be LSS with meltas, making them big targets for the enemy and obviously denying thier use when you need to assualt objectives!

 

GC08

[Cadarn]

Just been looking over my own army list and realised where that Storm can also come in handy. Terminator assaults. You run into a mob with your lightning claws and thunder hammer, take out half a mob and then sit back and half a cup of tea while the mob either passes their morale test or fails and legs it, while you can't chase them and wipe them out due to terminator armour restrictions.

 

Call in the scouts!!!

 

Time an assault from your scouts in the Storm to co-incide with your Terminator assault. Not only will the cerberus launchers increase the chances of the enemy fleeing, but the scouts will be able to chase down any foe who runs.

 

This is of course assuming they don't get their arses handed to them and lose you the combat.

 

Not really for all scout armies, but if you're using them to back up elite units then a viable tactic.

[greatcrusade08]

Its pretty much what i said before there are two uses for a storm, the first being a standard speeder...ok if you want but the best way is as an assult transport.

Cadarns tactic with the terms would work well, but it doesnt have to be terms, going back to the all scout army any unit in CC could be 'backed' up by CC scouts in a storm.

Also if you take two they can be used at the same time to reduce the leadership of the enemy by 4, it also helps to have 30 CC attacks rather than 15.

In a situation like this even orks can be bested (low initiative strikes last), though you have to reduce the orks' number below 10 for the cerberus launchers to have effect!!

 

GC08

[greatcrusade08]

This may require its own thread, but the rule which you gain by taking a captain on bike, allows you to take space marine bike squads that number 5 or more as troop choices.

Now alot of people see this as space marine bikes only not scout bikes.

But im seeing it a little differently now ive given it some thought.

You see space marine tac squads AND scout squads are troops so following logic one would assume this meant scout bikers gain from this rule also...but i know where in 40k can we use logic.

 

Ok then if we look at the wording of the rule, "All space marine bike squads that number more than 5 may be taken as troops choices", well scout bikers are both space marines and bike squads...

I think this is just GW forgetting to dot its t's and cross its i's

What does everyone else think, it would make it far easier to run a scout army dont you think?

 

GC08

[TechnoBanker]

Ah the icing on the cake. If this is infact true (and I very well read into it just as you do) then this would I think solve a big problem I brought up in an earlier post. If we could take the Scout Bikers as troops, we could free up some space in the Fast Attack slot for those valuable LSS's, which I think would benefit from a 1-3 on the unit instead of a single one.

 

I think the two things that we need to be concerned with at this point are

 

1) Scouts Bikes as Troops? (with the addition of a Captain on bike)

2) Some type of "fluffy" heavy support. Either a general concensus of a type of tank that the Scouts would have access to, or saying that a Vindi or Whirliwnd (I personally like the latter) fits the type of army list that an all Scout force would come to bear with.

 

I like the ideas of the Chaplain, Librarian or Captian (bike or not) as Scout HQ 's bring and deffinatly putting a strict foot stomp on the no to special characters for this type of force (obviously with the sole exception of Telion).

 

*Edit*

 

I'm thinking of recanting on the Special Character view. Cato Sicarius I think would be a viable addtion to a Scout Force. Reason being that (as a count-as) He stands as the most reasonable to lead scouts into the foreray. His special ability of giving one unit tank hunters (or another ability) would be beneficial for our Heavy weapon short units. Other than Cato, I really don't see any other Characters leading the scouts into war. We might think Khan (Kahn?) would be a good choice but upon further review of my Codex, Scout bikers don't get the benefit of a captain being on a bike. Space Marine Bikers are actually called Space Marine bikers, whereas the Scout Bikers are listed as such. Even though they are bikers all the same, the unit entry has them listed as different.

 

Have we thought about LotD as a viable "Heavy Support" choice? I mean they have the slow and purposeful, from a fluff standpoint we can justify them being on the battlefield as they like to "show up without warning and leave just as quickly" and still fit in with the mobility of an all scout army.

[Jackelope King]

This may require its own thread, but the rule which you gain by taking a captain on bike, allows you to take space marine bike squads that number 5 or more as troop choices.

Now alot of people see this as space marine bikes only not scout bikes.

But im seeing it a little differently now ive given it some thought.

You see space marine tac squads AND scout squads are troops so following logic one would assume this meant scout bikers gain from this rule also...but i know where in 40k can we use logic.

 

Ok then if we look at the wording of the rule, "All space marine bike squads that number more than 5 may be taken as troops choices", well scout bikers are both space marines and bike squads...

I think this is just GW forgetting to dot its t's and cross its i's

What does everyone else think, it would make it far easier to run a scout army dont you think?

 

GC08

It's a tough argument to make, but it really isn't an unfair one, considering how much less punch Scout Bikes have than standard Bikes. I expect that if I asked the folks I usually played with, they'd okay it. As for getting it allowed in tournaments, I wouldn't hold my breath unless a FAQ comes out that allows it.

[greatcrusade08]

Yeah i guess it depends on how you read the rule, i guess with permission you could use anything, but it would be nice to get an FAQ.

 

Im trying to piece together some great HQ options that fit both the rules and fluff for a scout army, check out this thread for more info.

 

As for heavy options i guess what ever vehicles are common enough to loan out to tenth co, im guessing thats preds, and whirlies, although id definately stick with using thunderfire (very fluffy support option), also dreads in drop pods support the ideas of a surgical striking scout army.

 

GC08

[TechnoBanker]

I think if you stray outside the lines then you can get sidetracked very easily. For the Dreads as "heavy" for the scouts, I would personally put a 0-1 limitation just so that you don't see 3 pop up. I'd go with a pred or whirly as other Heavy choices also.

 

I agree about the TFC 100% btw. Seeing as its maned by a Techmarine and not just some shmoe I like it.

 

Since we're just brainstorming right now I get it, but are we gonna go forward with actually making a ruelset with this? Should we pop over to the Homegrown section or something? I'm really liking this idea, and would love to jump on this project if you're up for it (Directed at GC08 and anybody else interested.)

[greatcrusade08]

I think if you stray outside the lines then you can get sidetracked very easily. For the Dreads as "heavy" for the scouts, I would personally put a 0-1 limitation just so that you don't see 3 pop up. I'd go with a pred or whirly as other Heavy choices also.

 

I agree about the TFC 100% btw. Seeing as its maned by a Techmarine and not just some shmoe I like it.

 

Since we're just brainstorming right now I get it, but are we gonna go forward with actually making a ruelset with this? Should we pop over to the Homegrown section or something? I'm really liking this idea, and would love to jump on this project if you're up for it (Directed at GC08 and anybody else interested.)

 

Hey techno banker id love to champion this, but have little experience so may need some help.

Im back on in a couple of hours so will start the thread.

 

Great idea!!!

 

GC08

[Cadarn]

Count me in. For the Tenth!!! Raaaagh!!!!

[spectre312]

maybe I'm out of the loop....but I thought in fifth any vehicle that could transport that ISN'T dedicated could have a unit in it to start the game. If not then the people where I learned fifth were way off..... we always deployed storms ontot he board with scouts in them because, as far as I know, when a unit is in reserve (landraiders , storms) they can be "embarking" on turn one with another unit, and then arriving on turn two to attack. Space wolves armies around where I'm from deploy with bloodclaws in LRC's at the beggining of matches all the time.....

[greatcrusade08]

maybe I'm out of the loop....but I thought in fifth any vehicle that could transport that ISN'T dedicated could have a unit in it to start the game. If not then the people where I learned fifth were way off..... we always deployed storms ontot he board with scouts in them because, as far as I know, when a unit is in reserve (landraiders , storms) they can be "embarking" on turn one with another unit, and then arriving on turn two to attack. Space wolves armies around where I'm from deploy with bloodclaws in LRC's at the beggining of matches all the time.....

 

The rules on reserves actually go into detail about embarking troops, in that they do allow it. However the rules on embarking troops into non-dedicated transports prior to the game is very ambiguous and has led to lengthy debates.

So Yes transports in reserve can carry troops, but for those starting on the table just get your opponents clarification before the game!

 

GC08

[spectre312]

I've once been on the reciving end of a VERY deadly scout army, to summarise.

 

Captian Shrike.

10 scouts with bolt pistols and CCW, Sergeant has a power fist.

10 scouts with bolt pistols and CCW, Sergeant has a power fist.

10 scouts with bolt pistols and CCW, Sergeant has a power fist.

10 scouts with bolt pistols and CCW, Sergeant has a power fist.

10 scouts with bolt pistols and CCW, Sergeant has a power fist.

10 scouts with bolt pistols and CCW, Sergeant has a power fist.

 

First turn, infiltrates 18" away from you, charges 19-24" and dropping 30+ attacks per squad.

 

 

Ummmm.......6 inch move, 6 inch charge. so 12". Now we fleet...1-6. so 13-18". how do you get 19-24"?

[Chaplain Morty]

I've once been on the reciving end of a VERY deadly scout army, to summarise.

 

Captian Shrike.

10 scouts with bolt pistols and CCW, Sergeant has a power fist.

10 scouts with bolt pistols and CCW, Sergeant has a power fist.

10 scouts with bolt pistols and CCW, Sergeant has a power fist.

10 scouts with bolt pistols and CCW, Sergeant has a power fist.

10 scouts with bolt pistols and CCW, Sergeant has a power fist.

10 scouts with bolt pistols and CCW, Sergeant has a power fist.

 

First turn, infiltrates 18" away from you, charges 19-24" and dropping 30+ attacks per squad.

 

 

Ummmm.......6 inch move, 6 inch charge. so 12". Now we fleet...1-6. so 13-18". how do you get 19-24"?

 

 

Scout move.

[JaM_TW]

I dont own any scout bikers, however I DO have 3.5 landspeerders I dont use anymore in 5th.

 

Would it be viable to use 3 storms, and no bikes at all ? What say you... :tu:

[greatcrusade08]

I dont own any scout bikers, however I DO have 3.5 landspeerders I dont use anymore in 5th.

 

Would it be viable to use 3 storms, and no bikes at all ? What say you... :cuss

 

The thing about scout forces is they have a few weaknesses that need to be tweaked in order to play well against certain opponents. Unfortunatley two of their downfalls are CC and anti-tank. Like i said we can throw in loads of meltabombs and combi-weapons to counter armour, but what it effectivel means is that you cannot have an 'all rounder' scout force.

That being said if you know the army you are facing and tailoring a list to suit, there is no reason you cant make a game of it.

 

Ok speech over, down to the point at hand: can we use 3 LSS???

Almost certainly, yes. Like all speeders they work better in numbers, and can be kitted out to cater for many different opponents with H.Bolter, H.Flamer or M,Melta options.

Of course you have to know there strengths and weaknesses and use them with a game plan in mind.

With the LSS, you could use them as a regular speeder to target certain units. i.e heavy flamer for big mobs/swarms, or multi melta for anti tank duties.

The negative with this is that your paying over the odds for a speeder, and you cannot take squadrons (linited to one per force-org fast attack slot), however the flip side is also true in that if not kept together a single LSS wont provide such a big target for the enemy, and they can all target different units.

 

Alternatively you could use them to thier strengths, in that combined with a 5 man scout squad they can provide many different services on the battlefield and become very flexible.

Firstly they can be used as assault vehicles, with a 5 man cc scout team the LSS can move up into assault range, disembark passengers and can all fire into the enemy unit, in this case a heavy flamer or heavy bolter would be best. The 5 man scout squad would then charge and using the special launchers on the LSS the enemy would get a -2 to Ld. Of course for this to have effect you would have to win the combat, so there is no point charging a superior unit, you have to play the bully and gang up on 'half' units or weaker opponents.

Alternatively to take down a superior foe, this tactic can be used in tandem with another such unit (or two) to stack the firepower and Ld modifiers, on the enemy unit. Potentially taking 6 off their leadership and storming in with 48 attacks after the shooting, with this effect on the leadership you only have to win combat by 1 wound to have the desired effect.

 

A second use would be as 'drive by' vehicles, putting rapid fire weapons such as bolters or shotguns (heavy bolters too) in the LSS makes it a moving firebase, immune to most basic weaponry. Combined with the different types of weapons available to the speeder this again creates more options.

With a multi melta the unit can be used to target transports, when the melta pops the target the boys in back can let loose on the surviving passengers.

Of course the unit would work better against CC troops, if you keep the speeder moving 12" it can still fire its flamer or heavy bolter and the boys in back can rapid fire thier weapons, if dragged into assault all S4 or less weapons will have very little effect and will only hit on 4+, alternatively moving flat out will still allow the passengers to fire and get a cover save whilst reducing CC attacks to needing a 6 to hit.

 

Another use is to combine them with snipers on the ground, if you manage to pin a unit they go to ground and get an increased cover save, in these cases it would be useful to have a mobile heavy flamer to target the pinned unit and as flamers ignore cover they become quite literally sitting ducks.

 

Back to point, having three enables you to do a combination of the above, whilst not forgetting that casulties will be taken and having three will probably mean you still have 1 left at the end for an assault on an objective. Its always best as mentioned at the beginning of this very long essay to know who your facing so you can modify the list a little.

Having no bikes is not a great loss against some armies, sure against MEQ the T5 and S6 grenade launchers would come in handy, but with 3 LSS you are not putting all your eggs into the same basket.

 

Hope this helps

 

GC08

[JaM_TW]

Thanks, it helps indeed. Looks like I need to bring out the saw and plasticard !

 

For winning the combat with the cc-scouts, I guess the best team to take is a vet-serg with a p-weapon, with bp/ccw scouts.

I might as well make 1 LSS a drive-by vehicle, with 5 shotgun wielding socuts. Maybe this one should get a flamer, to use it combined with the snipers... ideas ideas.

 

Like I said before, I like where this discussion is going. Personally I dont see any harm in either using veterans/sternguards in the elite slot as heavy support (5 man, 2 lascannons), but 2 dreads with TLLC + ML might be better.

Heavy support the same, altough I look forward to use 2 preds with TLLC and sidebolters (old models, all I have)...

 

But to each his own. I love the thunderfire model, but the need of a LOS is not something I am fond of. Not to mention the "artillery" thing, i.e. armour 10 IIRC (have to reread the rules on that one).

 

Interesting thread, I've made it a "favorite". :)

[greatcrusade08]

Glad i could help, if you want to check out the scout tactica ive been working on, it can be found here.

 

GC08

[gdeathlegion]

Take 2 techmarines and lysander and you can bolster defenses for three ruins.

Use 3 squads of scouts as static fire support equipped with camocloaks.

 

2+ cover save :)

[greatcrusade08]

Take 2 techmarines and lysander and you can bolster defenses for three ruins.

Use 3 squads of scouts as static fire support equipped with camocloaks.

 

2+ cover save :)

 

Or you could take a t-fire cannon, as the tech marine still gets his bonuses like bolster defenses!!!

 

GC08

[dragonlady]

GC08 great input and tactica guide. Its one of only two that I've found on the web concerning 10th company so far.

 

I was wondering how everyone was modeling or getting models for the two heavy options available for the scout squads: Heavy Bolter and Missile Launcher. The new plastic box set provides for a single heavy bolter, I'm not sure about the Missile launcher.

 

The HB is good for reaching out and touching troops, while the missile launcher allows for some anti vehicle along with a small template that can hit groups, but enemy tend to spread out more when they realize that you have that weapon (and it is pretty obvious: "Hey george, look at the tube point at us, what do you think that is?")

 

How about a lot of us who have the old metal Scout boxes (I have 52 scouts already) it seems rather silly to purchase another 4 boxes just to get 4 more heavy bolter scouts and 4 more missile launchers. There is NO way to field a legal 72 scout army. (max of 6 troops x 10 scouts = 60 models).

 

Its not like I'm going to necessarily going to field all of these, (though I have already made a 1500 point list that includes them all along with my scout bikes) for my fun 10th company army.

[greatcrusade08]

Thanks for the kind words Dragonlady.

 

My advice would be to have a look on ebay or mail order for the scout heavys, and yes you can get scout ML's i just cant remember where!

 

And yes your right, you cant get 72 scouts in an army, you can get however 60 + 10 bikers, HQ and a couple of LSS, easily taking you above 2000 points!

 

GC08

[Jackelope King]

In terms of getting heavy weapons, what I'm doing for my (admittedly heavily-customized) Scout force is to custom build one. I took a heavy bolter off of one of my old Land Speeders, chopped the mounting clip off, attached a boltgun handle and trigger to the rear, stuck an ork scope on the top, and then mounted it on a two-piece tripod I built from pieces of sprue. Once I get the base finished, I'm simply going to base it separately and stick it in front of an otherwise unarmed scout who can work the heavy bolter. The bits to assemble such a tripod are easier to get off of ebay or from bits stores than individual heavy bolter scouts, so that might be another way to go, if you don't mind a slight custom job.

[dragonlady]

In terms of getting heavy weapons, what I'm doing for my (admittedly heavily-customized) Scout force is to custom build one. I took a heavy bolter off of one of my old Land Speeders, chopped the mounting clip off, attached a boltgun handle and trigger to the rear, stuck an ork scope on the top, and then mounted it on a two-piece tripod I built from pieces of sprue. Once I get the base finished, I'm simply going to base it separately and stick it in front of an otherwise unarmed scout who can work the heavy bolter. The bits to assemble such a tripod are easier to get off of ebay or from bits stores than individual heavy bolter scouts, so that might be another way to go, if you don't mind a slight custom job.

 

Sounds like a decent conversion - do you have a photo for us visual learners?