Would the Inquisition and GK work with aliens?

[Tauren]

In the 'Grey Knight' series by Ben Counter, Justicar Alaric cuts out the progenoid glands of fallen brothers. The survivors then take their ammo and bury them in shallow graves in the field, for later retrieval (if at all possible).

 

GK Apothecaries do exist, Ben Counter mentions one tending to Alaric back on Titan after a dangerous mission (don't remember which book exactly).

 

Without reading the book I kinda suspected that the senior officer would take up that kinda role for the team. He is responsible for the team, even more so because the knights under a justicar's command are relatively new in turns of knighthood.

[jakehunter52]

So, in summary;

 

Ordo Malleus: Eldar = sometime ally, other aliens dependable on Inquisitor/situation on the ground. Necrons and Tyranids are always enemies.

Ordo Xenos: All aliens dependable on Inquisitor/situation on the ground. Necrons and Tyranids are always enemies, and are the two primary threats currently being dealt with by the Ordo Xenos.

Ordo Hereticus: SoB hate everything non-human by default. Would take extreme circumstances (we're talking 'both have their backs against the same wall vs Genestealer cult etc', or the improbable Radical Hereticus Inquisitor (it's possible but unlikely) pulling rank and granting priority to Chaos/whatever over the aliens. Again, Necrons+Tyranids are always enemies.

 

I think that this is a good summation of the beliefs, giving the general beliefs of the different ordos but also allowing exceptions (I remember know in Daemonhammer that Alaric worked for a while with an eldar, not that he had much of a choice since he was on a khorne world....). Well done sir!

[Melissia]

The Sisters are hard-liners to be sure, but not stupid. They aren't going to attack the eldar to their left when there's an Ork horde charging at them from the front. Similarly, the Eldar tend to make themselves scarce around Imperial forces, and so unless the Sisters' convent was positioned on an Eldar Maiden/Exodite World, it's unlikely that they'd fight with great frequency.

 

 

Quite different from Orks, who would fight the Sisters just because the Sisters are there, or the Tau, who are looking to expand their influence, or the other forces in the galaxy.

[Shunch]

I think the main problem here is the ambiguity of the word 'xenos'. As Melissia just pointed out, the Sisters might fight alongside the Eldar in the right circumstances, but the odds of them facing off Chaos shoulder-to-shoulder with a bunch of Orks is highly unlikely, if not downright impossible.

 

So, in truth, the answer to this question depends on

-The Inquisitorial forces in question

-The Xeno forces in question

-The current situation each of them are in

 

If a semi-radical Inquisitor and a team of Eldar are with their backs against the wall facing mutual destruction, then I imagine they would fight alongside one another. For a little while, at least.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I think that this is a good summation of the beliefs, giving the general beliefs of the different ordos but also allowing exceptions (I remember know in Daemonhammer that Alaric worked for a while with an eldar, not that he had much of a choice since he was on a khorne world....). Well done sir!

 

Cheers. It's 'Hammer of Daemons', the third book, but whatever ;) . And yes, he works with/manipulated by another Eldar prisoner. That whole episode kinda demonstrates what I was talking about; Alaric fights Daemons with every breath and seeks their destruction, but xenos remain a grey area (no pun intended :lol: ). I mean, he even fights alongside the Ork prisoners, and they accord him a measure of respect in return.

The Sisters are hard-liners to be sure, but not stupid. They aren't going to attack the eldar to their left when there's an Ork horde charging at them from the front. Similarly, the Eldar tend to make themselves scarce around Imperial forces, and so unless the Sisters' convent was positioned on an Eldar Maiden/Exodite World, it's unlikely that they'd fight with great frequency.

 

You have to appreciate their point of view. They are brought into the Ecclesiarchy at an early age as orphans, and raised their entire lives in the extremist belief system of the Cult of the Emperor. This is a group that brooks no tolerance, no exception; if you're an alien, you're an abomination and in the way of the Emperor's grand vision of a human-controlled galaxy. Anyone who argues differently is a heretic and deserves to be burnt at the stake. I mean, it's the same group that regularly launches pogroms against Imperial worlds because of doctrinal differences or percieved relaxing of standards. Never mind 'out and out' non-humans, the Ecclesiarchy uses the SoB to purge even the most harmless mutants of the human race. If they hate the tiny differences that seperate an mutant and the 'human' ideal, aliens probably send most preachers into paroxysms of fury.

 

It's not a case of being stupid, it's a case of hard-line ideology over-ruling any of the normal 'rational' safeguards of the human psyche. You only need to look at human history to see this repeated over and over again; so long as you preach a manifest destiny, an apocalypse and a saviour, you can motivate fellow human beings to the most brutal and horrific acts of violence. The Imperium is a perfect example of this; a galaxy-spanning empire heavily influenced by a cult that preaches eternal damnation if any stray from their own narrow ideals. Now, as we all know, the Ecclesiarchy is onto something, even if they don't know it , because faith is a real force in 40k. Nevertheless, they are still an organisation that frequently orders the murder of thousands of Imperial citizens based on religious convictions. Aliens don't have a hope of redemption, and thus are considered vermin getting in the way of the Emperor's vision. There's no compromise; any difference of body or mind is purged ruthlessly.

 

SoB don't get a choice in the matter; either they are deployed as part of a pogrom, or they are being utilised by the Ordo Hereticus. In either case, it's highly unlikely their commander will order anything other than 'kill them all'. I mean, if he/she didn't do this, I'd wager the SoB under their command would kill them for heresy, then continue with the original plan of 'purge everything non-human'. They're that indoctrinated to hate the enemies of the Imperium (hell, Celestians even get a special rule that reflects that aspect of their beliefs).

I think the main problem here is the ambiguity of the word 'xenos'. As Melissia just pointed out, the Sisters might fight alongside the Eldar in the right circumstances, but the odds of them facing off Chaos shoulder-to-shoulder with a bunch of Orks is highly unlikely, if not downright impossible.

 

So, in truth, the answer to this question depends on

-The Inquisitorial forces in question

-The Xeno forces in question

-The current situation each of them are in

 

If a semi-radical Inquisitor and a team of Eldar are with their backs against the wall facing mutual destruction, then I imagine they would fight alongside one another. For a little while, at least.

 

It's only ambiguous to us, the gods prodding these soldiers around ;) .

 

Like I said, Ordo Malleus has ties and has worked with the Eldar before, in particular Ulthwé. Necrons+Tyranids = dead, but other races are dependant on context and/or ranking Inquisitor/Brother-Captain. Remember that Puritans overwhelmingly outnumber Radicals and moderates.

 

Ordo Xenos has same problem as Malleus (high proportion of Puritans), but again ranking Inquisitor/DW Captain makes it dependant. Eldar are a definate possibility, Tau are possible but unlikely (due to current strategic situation), never with Orks (Ordo Xenos devotes resources not combating Tyranids into finding ways to permanently purge Ork infestations), Necrons+Tyranids are likewise immortal enemies.

It's known that some PDF forces or even IG regiments utilise Blood Axe mercs or even Kroot kindreds as auxiliary forces; the few Radicals in the order probably do much the same. However, the majority Puritans do devote time and energy persecuting such corruption, because A: giving Ork's a toe-hold on a world is as good as inviting a Waagh! and B: both mercs do fight alongside Chaos if paid well enough.

 

Ordo Hereticus is the least likely to ever ally with aliens. Eldar are a big 'if', because while they generally work to aid mankind (when they're really using us as a pawn in a larger game), but the mindset of about 80% of Hereticus Inquisitors and 100% of the Ecclesiarchy+SoB is 'kill everything non-human'. You would need really extreme circumstances, and I'm talking 'we don't have enough women and ammo to take both down, tactically we should ignore those pesky Eldar until we've purged this Chaos cult/'Stealer coven first'. Even in that situation, the Eldar would probably keep well of range. Through the narrow viewpoint of a Hereticus strike force or a SoB-lead pogrom, aliens are total abominations and are just as deserving of death as any servant of the Ruinous Powers.

[Melissia]

You have to appreciate their point of view.

I do. But as I said, the SIsters are hard-liners, but not stupid. They are a miliatry organization as much as they are a religious one (and indeed the two facets of their life are one in the same), and as a military organization they must prioritize their targets. Eldar are, as far as enemies go, low on the list unless they're directly effecting the Sisters.

 

It's not a case of being stupid

Yeeeeeeeeeessss it is.

 

When you are faced with two enemies, one of which is shooting at you, it is stupid to attack the party which isn't shooting at you first.

 

"Hey look, those orks are attacking us, but let's kill the Eldar who are trying to kill the Orks instead!" Just plan stupid. At the very least, they would kill the most present danger first, THEN turn their attentions on their temporary "allies".

[Chengar Qordath]

Agreed with Melissa; if nothing else the Sisters are very capable of prioritizing and destroying the bigger and most immediate threat (horde of charging Orks) over the one that's a smaller threat and useful in the short term (Small Eldar force shooting said Orks).

[Melissia]

That could quite possibly make for an interesting game.

 

One player with 2000 points of ORks versus a team of 2 players with 1000 points, one eldar, one sisters. Wonder how well that would work out. Then if the Sisters and Eldar team won, we'd have a side game of the surviving Sisters versus the surviving Eldar.

 

 

 

Anyway, any effective military organization-- which the Sisters are amongst-- is capable of prioritizing its enemies. An Inquisitor might be unyielding and attack everything, but the Inquisition is not strictly a military organization.

[Lady_Canoness]

We are talking about religious zealots here...

 

Okay, so these here are my view for how Sisters would react to a possible Eldar alliance.

 

First of all, how would the Eldar even propose such a thing to the Sisters? Through a human emissary? Not likely, he'd/she'd be killed in short order for conspiring with aliens. Would a seer aproach them? First off its a witch, second off its an alien, third off Eldar have a reputation for being both calouse and extremely deceptive. Even if the Sisters didn't shoot it on sight, they wouldn't accept anything it told them as anything more than lies. Through an aspect warrior? An aspect warrior is the closest thing the eldar have to religious fanatics - their aspect is a religion of sorts that worships an aspect of khaine.

I don't think the forging of an alliance would be possible.

 

So lets consider the actual field of battle now.

Orks charging Sisters, but all of a sudden the Eldar appear - what do the Sisters do? bunker down, let the aliens fight it out, then kill both of them. Fight beside them? Hell no - betraying the Emperor's edict of killing the alien is far far far worse than simple death. Remember that Sisters don't fear death in the slightest, for death is not a failure; death is martyrdom. I believe that any Sister would rather die than fight side by side with an alien.

 

I agree with Darius, the stupid thing for them to do would be to gamble their immortal souls by actually accepting the aid of aliens.

I think the only conclusion that can be made is that Sisters would indiscriminately kill both Eldar or Orks.

Grey Knights would undoubtably do the same.

 

The Sisters are more religious than military. They are charged with the defence of the faith at all costs, and as such are crusaders more than anything else. Crusaders, historically, aren't strictly a military orginization, but rather a large group of pilgrims who are heavily armed.

[Melissia]

It's nothing about a formal temporary alliance in writing or whatever, it's about shooting whoever is the biggest threat first. No matter what hey do, the ORks will fight them, but he Eldar will not necessarilly fight them unless they shoot first. If the Eldar do shoot the Sororitas, all bets are off.

 

The Sororitas are not more religious than military, they are equally religious and military, because with military actions they are serving the Emperor. With each barrage of bolter fire, they pray for the rounds to strike true. With their prayer sessions, they gain (and this is paraphrased from C:WH) profound insight into the arts of war and battle. Remember Praxedes, who did a hit and run campaign against the Tyranids, certainly if they can manage THAT, then they can also manage to think reasonably about target priority as well.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The lines are certainly blurred Melissa, but SoB are first and foremost religious fanatics.

 

They started out as a cult of the Emperor (curiously only-female), and due to the political situation of the times were dragged into the larger Imperium. Vandire used them as a weapon, but then they turned on him when the Custodes revealed the truth.

 

So, they went from isolated cult to a fully-integrated part of the Ecclesiarchy. They never made the transition to a professional military force. Certainly, I don't doubt their skill or their wargear, but they are armed+trained+supplied by a religious organisation (which is sanctioned+supplied by ties with other organisations, like the Ad Mech), not the larger Imperial warmachine (the Munitorum). They're more effective than Guardsman and approach the level of the Adeptus Astartes, but they remain first and foremost an armed militia (albeit a highly-trained, well-supplied militia).

 

A professional military force has a wide range of units, tactics and overall strategies it can deploy to defeat its opponents. These can range from artillery+massed infantry advance to smaller mechanised spearpoints to special forces infiltrating and disabling enemy infrastructure (supply lines, communications, command etc). The SoB style of warfare is close-range firefight; they simply don't believe in any strategy other than direct assault of enemy lines. They're not Orks (ie mass rush enemy gunline), but as a fighting force ideas like feinting (falling back to draw enemy forces into ambushes) and stealth tactics (raids and sabotage missions) are alien to them.

 

They're not professional soldiers, they're an Imperial-sanctioned religious militia with excellent martial training and material. They have largely replaced the Frateris Militia, which was one of the factors that allowed Vandire to rule for so long and conduct his genocidal pogroms against his opponents. The caveat this time is that A: the SoB are completely loyal to the Emperor (and thus in any dispute between Imperium vs church, they opt to shoot the rogue clergy) B: the Ordo Hereticus can pull rank and directly bypass Ecclesiarchy authority over a Convent (or indeed the whole Adeptus Sororitas).

 

The Imperial Guard, the Astartes Chapters and even the Ad Mech are all professional fighting forces, and thus their allegiances are malleable (thus allowing a grey area with aliens). The Imperial Guard are expected to be as devout and uncompromising as the SoB, but in practise, they are much more easily corrupted (as experience with Chaos and the Tau Empire have proven), or at least their commanders can be open-minded (Astartes largely don't care what the rest of the Imperium thinks, and the Ad Mech is pretty untouchable).

The SoB simply don't get a choice in a tactical situation about how to treat 'abomination A' over 'larger force of abomination B' ; their beliefs allow no distinction. It's a not a case of 'I'm too stupid to see the merit in allowing one to survive', it's a case of 'having been brought up my whole life to hate aliens of all stripes, burn them all'. If their commander begs to differ, he/she better have a convincing theological reason, or his/her own army will declare them a heretic and corrupt (and thus to be burnt at the stake).

 

It seems non-nonsensical, but thats the power of faith at work <_< . Anyway, the SoB probably are better off not trusting aliens, because as we all know Eldar just use us as pawns and Kroot/Blood Axe mercs can be bought off relatively easily. Orks are especially a problem, due to their spores that infest any planet they're allowed to get onto.

[Melissia]

I firmly disagree there.

 

While it is true that the Sisters are religious fanatics, they are also a military force. They did not start out as such, that much is true, but they certainly are now even if simply out of necessity. Each one is highly disciplined and extremely devoted, obeying her superiors not just because of their superior religious knowledge, but because of their superior experience on the battlefield. If their leader ordered them to fire at the Orks and to ignore the Eldar for now, then the Sisters would obey. And since their leaders are quite experienced and generally speaking the most famous Sororitas are known for their military acumen as well as their martial prowess.

 

Likewise, economics states that they must behave as a military organization. Their goals are perhaps not purely military in nature, but their tactics must be. Yes, they have the backing of the Ecclesiarchy, but even wit this rather rich organization, funding an expensive and poorly run militia just doesn't cut it. The Ecclesiarchy was reformed to be less wasteful by Sebastian Thor at roughly the same time that the Sororitas were accepted as the Ecclesiarchy's military force. That man, being one of the greatest saints revered by the Sororitas, would definitely have had an impact on them, and wasteful practices go against the Sororitas' ideals anyway (such things are referred to as corruption, and above all else, the Sisters abhor corruption). That said, keep in mind the high cost of power armor as effective as that worn by the Sororitas, and that of bolters and the ammunition for the same. Add to this the cost of rhinos, immolators, exorcists, of feeding and transporting their army, paying the AdMech for repairs and heavy duty maintenance (exorcists being particularly troublesome), and then one attempts to make the claim that the Sisters would throw these things (and all these things are revered, as the Sororitas take quite good care of their equipment due to their religious beliefs, even if they do not have the technical knowledge of the AdMech) and their lives away in wasteful and quite frankly stupid endeavors? No, I think not.

 

That's not to say that they would ever have a truelly peaceful relationship with Xenos, but a momentary, wordless ceasefire when a bigger threat presents itself, sure.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Why is religious fanaticism and being a military force mutually exclusive? :woot:

The Sisters seem more like one of the Crusader Knightly Orders, like the Templars or the Hospitallers - both religious fanatics and a powerful military force.

[Skytear]

Yeah, but then again, no chinese army showed up in front of Jerusalem.

If they had, would then the Templars have sided with the Islamic Forces?

Or would they have just charged everywhere, believing God would grant them victory.

I can see Sisters doing both with style.

Being fanatical sometimes limits your viewpoints - but a fanatical at some point

has to look at the outside world.

If he makes no compromise at all, he will one day go down guns blazing.

Win-win is the word of the day - that usually stops with the 40k argument

"my god is the immortal emperor and he will bash u", but the tactical results will be the same.

Win or loose.

 

I find these things really complicated to settle.

To me, it always comes to the girl/boy in charge.

If they are fanatical morons, they will get everyone killed in the name of justice and faith.

If they are fanatical saints, everyone dies the same.

If they are tactically adept and do not have egos that dwarf Emperor-Titans, they might as well

evaluate the situation and the grey areas between total win and total loss.

 

I would agree with Melissa here.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

Skytear Posted Today, 02:40 PM

 

Yeah, but then again, no chinese army showed up in front of Jerusalem.

If they had, would then the Templars have sided with the Islamic Forces?

 

Certainly not. But they might have tried to side with the Chinese against the Islamic forces.

Similar concept with Sisters. They won't side with Tyranids against Eldar, but they might side with Eldar against Tyranids.

[Melissia]

Exactly. As I said, there is a basic list of targets in order of importance, and they might ignore one target in favor for another because that other target is more important. how big a threat each target is also effects this list.

 

It could be said that there are some armies that the Sororitas would never, EVER work with in even the most extreme situations. That list would be as follows, in order of most hated to less hated but still quite hated:

 

Chaos Daemons, Chaos Space Marines, Lost and the Damned, Tyranids, Necrons

 

That is to say, they would never consider any of these for even a cease-fire, but everyone else it is a possibility depending on the situation and the reason for the temporary cease-fire.

[Lady_Canoness]

I don't think the Imperial church has a ranking when it comes to foes of mankind. There are the righteous humans, and then there is everyone else - all of them are equally evil. Despite what everyone seems to think, the Eldar aren't 'good guys' at all they are just as bad as every other type of alien, but just because the are manipulators and sometimes use man to meet their own ends doesn't mean that the Imperials would somehow be less hostile towards them then other aliens.

Some Imperial administrations would differentiate between xeno target priority, but not the Imperial Church - to them (and therefore to the Sisters) the galaxy is strickly 'us and them' with no shades of grey.

 

Also, I think that Holy Warriors and an organized Military should be marked out as seperate.

[Melissia]

I don't think the Imperial church has a ranking when it comes to foes of mankind..

At the same time, the Sisters are not the church. They are a military organization which acts at the behest of hte church, and at the same time polices it. I never said there was this official list written down on a memo and passed to their subbordinates or anything, only that logically speaking, there are enemies and then there are enemies.

[Grand Master Tyrak]

The Ecclesiarchy may not have a ranking when it comes to enemies, but that fact remains you cannot hammer out a ceasefire with Tyranids or Necrons. Eldar you can (if only temporarily).

[Lady_Canoness]

The Ecclesiarchy may not have a ranking when it comes to enemies, but that fact remains you cannot hammer out a ceasefire with Tyranids or Necrons. Eldar you can (if only temporarily).

 

I don't think the Ecclesiarchy would even consider having a ceasefire to begin with. They would fight to the death in every situation.

[Melissia]

I don't think the Ecclesiarchy would even consider having a ceasefire to begin with. They would fight to the death in every situation.

And I don't think the Sisters are suicidal morons, either. Only the Repentia.

[Thaelion Hexis]

I don't think the Ecclesiarchy would even consider having a ceasefire to begin with. They would fight to the death in every situation.

And I don't think the Sisters are suicidal morons, either. Only the Repentia.

 

 

I think what Lady Canoness means is in the larger scenario. At the end, either they die, or the sisters. No compromise, no deals.

 

Much of humanity is the same, though some are more fanatical than others.

 

You have to face it that the sisters are rather zealous and, along with a few space marine chapters, have likely found the same fate as 'suicidal morons'. Fanaticism sometimes overrules tactical thinking.

[Captain Hajime]

I don't think the Ecclesiarchy would even consider having a ceasefire to begin with. They would fight to the death in every situation.

And I don't think the Sisters are suicidal morons, either. Only the Repentia.

 

 

I think what Lady Canoness means is in the larger scenario. At the end, either they die, or the sisters. No compromise, no deals.

 

Much of humanity is the same, though some are more fanatical than others.

 

You have to face it that the sisters are rather zealous and, along with a few space marine chapters, have likely found the same fate as 'suicidal morons'. Fanaticism sometimes overrules tactical thinking.

 

I seriously disagree with your think but Either side cannot prove its case.

[Melissia]

You have to face it that the sisters are rather zealous and, along with a few space marine chapters, have likely found the same fate as 'suicidal morons'. Fanaticism sometimes overrules tactical thinking.

Sometimes-- but that is the exception, rather than the rule. Fanatical people with no tactical sense tend to die.. And thus they would end up having few veterans because the veterans would be dead, and yet they do tend to have many veterans, because otherwise they would have nothing but battle sisters and the occasional palatine.

 

That aside, I simply don't enjoy the thought of the Sisters being stupidly fanatic or fanaticly stupid. It just makes more sense to me that they are fanatical, but not stupid-- they can judge the situation and make, given everything that they know, a good tactical decision that will not only ensure that their mission is completed, but that they will also survive to complete further missions. It's far more enjoyable for me to play a faction that isn't trying to commit suicide at every turn.

[Captain Hajime]

Klingon Proverb "Only fools fight in a burning house"

 

Sister of Battles are many thing but fools are rare among them