Dragons Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Not in terms of FAQs and proofreading. GW and FW have about the same amount of stuff, seeing as WD has a whole section to itself that often doesn't involve those writers currently doing codexes. heh.. WD's Staff are not the same guys whom make/write/test the rules for GW games. It's ALMOST like a separate business.. GW's various 'parts' work VERY separately..... -Dragons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 And even FW can get it very wrong! Remember IA: Apocalypse? They also have some problems with balance. The Reaver, for exemple, is underpriced by at least 250 pts. The Lightning way inferior to the Thunderbolt, etc... Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 boreas Posted Today, 09:26 PM And even FW can get it very wrong! Remember IA: Apocalypse? They also have some problems with balance. The Reaver, for exemple, is underpriced by at least 250 pts. The Lightning way inferior to the Thunderbolt, etc... Sure they do. Like giving the Thunderhawk no structure points in IA:2, or omitting the Orbital Lander Rules from IA:1. BUT they got on that immediately and got out a FAQ quickly that (more importantly) fixed almost all problems without creating any new ones. Not trying to say FW is infallible here, just that they manage to adhere to a higher standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Quite true.... Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripath Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 I know that this is a horribly flawed point but FW makes titans. and that beats the crap out of SM fanboism. Sorry just had to say that everyone. (I LOOOOOOOVVVVVVVEEEEEEE TITANS!!!! btw) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treadhead Posted December 11, 2008 Author Share Posted December 11, 2008 "You mean to tell me you've been playing the Prat version of Rimmer all this time?" Dwayne Dibbley was awesome :( lol read my sig mon back on topic the reason I wrote the letter in the first place was, to remind them the inquisitorial armies aren't done yet, yes i know that they know, but it never hurts to remind them. And I defintely think it pays to get in contact with your queries, gripes and pet peeves as then they know that they exist, if enough folks are asking the same questions then things could change As for the bits service getting a lobtomy yes it makes better financial sense, but I'd have preferrred if they had just set a limit to how small the order could be say around the £30 or more area to make it worthwhile (feeding the trolls, making sure they dont pillage the local villages etc) fiscally for the company Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 back on topic the reason I wrote the letter in the first place was, to remind them the inquisitorial armies aren't done yet, yes i know that they know, but it never hurts to remind them. And I defintely think it pays to get in contact with your queries, gripes and pet peeves as then they know that they exist, if enough folks are asking the same questions then things could change Absolutely! I think we ALL should be sending a letter in the mail.. not just an email.. on a regular type basis... (snail mail carries more weight figuratively as well as literally! :P ) As for the bits service getting a lobtomy yes it makes better financial sense, but I'd have preferrred if they had just set a limit to how small the order could be say around the £30 or more area to make it worthwhile (feeding the trolls, making sure they dont pillage the local villages etc) fiscally for the company It seems like they are once again starting to expand it.. Perhaps in a few years it'll be comparable to what it was before (as they find better (i.e. more profitable)) ways to do it.. Obviously there IS a market.. It's just kinda.. small. -Dragons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Master Tyrak Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Absolutely! I think we ALL should be sending a letter in the mail.. not just an email.. on a regular type basis... (snail mail carries more weight figuratively as well as literally! ) You mean this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Yep.. But not just one, and I generally wouldn't use a form letter.. Easier for most, but different letters experessing the same content are.. are... More.... I try and get one out every four to six weeks. Just commenting on the hobby in general as well as my observations about the Ordos' -Dragons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargazer Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 How about a petition do you think that might work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panbient Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 How about a petition do you think that might work? no. the only time a petition is effective is when something requires a collection of signatures (like obtaining government funding for example) when you're trying to convince a private group to address a specific issue a petition simply becomes a single document that can be easily ignored no matter how many pages of signatures it has. if you sent even just 1 postcard for every 10 signatures you get you're going to provide far more hassle to that organization which will serve as a constant reminder that an issue exists and that it exists for more than just one person and a random name generator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Indeed, online petitions are pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treadhead Posted February 21, 2009 Author Share Posted February 21, 2009 currently toying with the idea of just sending gw a copy of my ordo xenos codex for a chuckle ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artein Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Just for your knowledge.... there is in internet floating a reference sheet of new IG.... No Inquisitors in IG army list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripath Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 A SINGLE small injection mold can run upwards of a MILLION DOLLARS I have trouble believeing that just the mold will cost GW a million dollars. I've worked with $10,000 ball bearings, lathes and mills that cost more then your house probably and the largest margin of error I've ever been given was 1/4 of an inch(normally I have to measure to the ten thousandths of an inch). I'm not saying that there is no such thing as a one million dollar plastic mold it wouldn't surprise me in the least, however something of that caliber I would expect only top tier industrial or extremely famous sculptors to have. Simply put if GW was using molds that were that expensive they would be buying molds that did things that are not needed to make the models that they do. Now if it cost them one million to revamp their casting process overall I would be amazed that they managed that so cheaply. Also I know that a mold cost isn't just the cost of the materials of the mold, its also the artist commission, labor to turn the sculpture into a mold, and any other fees such as the original models material etc. I also understand that it takes skill to cast because I've done it myself and know a few people that have worked in casting foundries. But lets do the math If one mold costs a million dollars then no human hands are going to be touching it ever. I can guarantee that. Everything at that level is done by machines, which will cost you a lot more then the mold and are going to need to be calibrated by highly trained proffessionals(note that your going to need a crew of a fairly decent size to keep up with games workshops status quo). Then there is the material costs of the raw plastic, heating and other supplies needed. But to simplify this lets take the million to revamp a casting system that I said would be extremely cheap and apply it to a $10k mold. If we kept that ratio(even though high end would have a much higher shop to mold cost) a million dollar mold would require a one hundred million dollar factory. GW grossed around 110 million last year. And that is leaving out their 2000 workers salaries, store costs, transport, overall upkeep of everything, and the cost of the other one million dollar molds. I hope you can fit an entire army into a mold! On average one reusable mold made for mass production of either plastic or metal costs less then one thousand dollars not including artist commissions. Thats for ceramic molds, rubber costs even less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 On average one reusable mold made for mass production of either plastic or metal costs less then one thousand dollars not including artist commissions. Thats for ceramic molds, rubber costs even less. I'm not sure where you could get a Machined Steel mold of the complexity that most GW Molds are made for that price.. I know that GW's molds are steel (at least they USED to be). And the process from artistic design on to completed Injection Mold was MUCH MUCH more. Now, at this point I don't doubt that there are cheaper ways to do it. But ask yourself this.. If it was only a few thousand per mold.. and a couple of hundred thousand for the production facility.. then how come there aren't 15 OTHER companies putting out HUNDREDS of high quality multi part plastic army men? -Dragons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 On average one reusable mold made for mass production of either plastic or metal costs less then one thousand dollars not including artist commissions. Thats for ceramic molds, rubber costs even less. I'm not sure where you could get a Machined Steel mold of the complexity that most GW Molds are made for that price.. I know that GW's molds are steel (at least they USED to be). And the process from artistic design on to completed Injection Mold was MUCH MUCH more. Now, at this point I don't doubt that there are cheaper ways to do it. But ask yourself this.. If it was only a few thousand per mold.. and a couple of hundred thousand for the production facility.. then how come there aren't 15 OTHER companies putting out HUNDREDS of high quality multi part plastic army men? -Dragons Its a niche market. There isn't enough money in it for much competition. And second its because of the artistic demands. The money involved is most likely not tied down in physical manufacturing costs but rather artistic production costs. Proof that the market is truly niche is the profit/loss standard GW currently has, say what you want about the way the company is run it isn't turning a good profit partially because of the small audience for it. And there are several companies in this particular business but few of them stay solvent for long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 On average one reusable mold made for mass production of either plastic or metal costs less then one thousand dollars not including artist commissions. Thats for ceramic molds, rubber costs even less. I'm not sure where you could get a Machined Steel mold of the complexity that most GW Molds are made for that price.. I know that GW's molds are steel (at least they USED to be). And the process from artistic design on to completed Injection Mold was MUCH MUCH more. Now, at this point I don't doubt that there are cheaper ways to do it. But ask yourself this.. If it was only a few thousand per mold.. and a couple of hundred thousand for the production facility.. then how come there aren't 15 OTHER companies putting out HUNDREDS of high quality multi part plastic army men? -Dragons Its a niche market. There isn't enough money in it for much competition. And second its because of the artistic demands. The money involved is most likely not tied down in physical manufacturing costs but rather artistic production costs. Proof that the market is truly niche is the profit/loss standard GW currently has, say what you want about the way the company is run it isn't turning a good profit partially because of the small audience for it. And there are several companies in this particular business but few of them stay solvent for long. On the contrary... There are several companies who've been doing this for years. And several LARGE companies who've gone into the Miniatures business to some extent or other (TSR comes immediately to mind).. Sure.. there are LOTS of small companies that come and go.. Some have GREAT mini's and artists and good games.. but they don't have the DEEP pockets that GW has and (hopefully) will continue to have to produce lines of STELAR miniatures.. in pewter and in Plastic. Lots of companies can do good pewter.. it's cheap. Only one can do good Plastics currently. I'd like to see more.. Competition is good! If it was inexpensive then at least several companies would be doing it.. but right now.. there is only one that does plastics. There's ALWAYS enough money for competiton. -Dragons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted February 24, 2009 Share Posted February 24, 2009 What I really want from GW is for them to include alignment pins and sockets on the hull sections of their vehicle models. That would make putting them together so much more enjoyable. SJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prathios Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 On the contrary... There are several companies who've been doing this for years. And several LARGE companies who've gone into the Miniatures business to some extent or other (TSR comes immediately to mind).. Sure.. there are LOTS of small companies that come and go.. Some have GREAT mini's and artists and good games.. but they don't have the DEEP pockets that GW has and (hopefully) will continue to have to produce lines of STELAR miniatures.. in pewter and in Plastic. Lots of companies can do good pewter.. it's cheap. Only one can do good Plastics currently. I'd like to see more.. Competition is good! If it was inexpensive then at least several companies would be doing it.. but right now.. there is only one that does plastics. There's ALWAYS enough money for competiton. -Dragons I suppose there is some truth to this. There is always enough money for competition, I guess my point is that as long as GW sits where its at there isn't a lot of room for anyone else. Now that's not to say someone cant come along and dethrone them but I stick by my point that its not a lucrative enough enterprise to stimulate that much competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissia Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 To support Prathios' statement, GW has around ninety five percent of the market right now according to their own numbers. This is as much due to name recognition and fame as anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Delias Posted February 25, 2009 Share Posted February 25, 2009 true enough... as of now... the only ones I know that are truly active(aside from GW) are privateer press and wizards of the coast... Reaper(which I love the model sets for) and Rackham(also has a few good minis) I only have seen models ranges for on independent miniature sites... Kinda sad really... gonna have to burn about a hundred on getting peices I want before I lose the chance to do so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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