The History and Legacy of Dorn's Betrayal

[modernangelofdeath]

@malika666

i think the skulltakers company sounds a little to brutal even for the dornian heresy.

 

Why is that so? Note that in the real 40k the Ultramarines had an off-shoot chapter called the Mortificators who have quite nasty skull taking rituals as well. The Sons of Malice when they were still loyalists also had some pretty gruesome cannibalism rituals which weren't viewed as too odd for the Adeptus Astartes.

 

The Skulltakers could then simply be some assault company/terror unit. :huh:

if they are a terror unit i suggest they be on some other chapter aside from the world eaters because they are a honourable chapter which looks down on stuff like that. maybe they could be alpha's or night lords (when we get them). i dont know, this is just my opinion.

[Kelbor-Hal]

The Skulltakers:

Out of the question. It simply doesn't fit with the WE's characteristics to be bloodthirsty savages. That's normverse loyalist WE, the Dornian Heresy loyalist WE are measured, self controlled paladins, who will eliminate any unit who commits such acts. It defies everything Angron belived in. So it's a no go.

[Codicier Lucion]

For a universe which kept with the astartes legions people seem very keen to translate a lot of the chapters into it. The Ultramarines and Emperor's Children I understand but this does seem to be a huge amount being suggested here.

[malika666]

For a universe which kept with the astartes legions people seem very keen to translate a lot of the chapters into it. The Ultramarines and Emperor's Children I understand but this does seem to be a huge amount being suggested here.

 

Many Legions were originally divided into Chapters during the Great Crusade. The Word Bearers and Dark Angels for example were divided into Chapters. Why wouldn't this take place in the Dornian universe?

 

Also, the Chapters I've been trying to include I've tried to turn into companies of the Legions rather than separate chapters. So for example the Emperor's Children's 66th company could have a nickname being the "Violators".

[Culebras]

For a universe which kept with the astartes legions people seem very keen to translate a lot of the chapters into it. The Ultramarines and Emperor's Children I understand but this does seem to be a huge amount being suggested here.

 

Many Legions were originally divided into Chapters during the Great Crusade. The Word Bearers and Dark Angels for example were divided into Chapters. Why wouldn't this take place in the Dornian universe?

 

Also, the Chapters I've been trying to include I've tried to turn into companies of the Legions rather than separate chapters. So for example the Emperor's Children's 66th company could have a nickname being the "Violators".

 

Agreed, I think one of the rules that we need to follow when making fluff here is that none of the alternate chapters listed here are actually independent chapters (unless they are Ultramarines which are deliberately referred to as chapters).

 

The names reflect that some of these grand companies have been around for thousands of years and so have developed their own traditions, nicknames, and variations on training practices. However, at the end of the day, they still follow the basic frame of each chapter. You won't see major changes in command structure, training, etc unless there is a very special case. Some of these names may not even represent a full thousand marines but only a small handfull. For instance, I wrote the Flawless host as a nickname given to the captain of a particular company, not as the name of the entire grad company.

[malika666]

The Skulltakers:

Out of the question. It simply doesn't fit with the WE's characteristics to be bloodthirsty savages. That's normverse loyalist WE, the Dornian Heresy loyalist WE are measured, self controlled paladins, who will eliminate any unit who commits such acts. It defies everything Angron belived in. So it's a no go.

 

Hmm, perhaps remove the savagery. However, the skull taking might still be interesting to look into. Maybe instead of simply tearing off heads and wearing skulls around their neck, these fellows might take the skulls of foes they consider worthy enough. These skulls are then placed on their ship or whatever, a sort of shrine for the opponents who, despite being on the wrong side, were rather worthy.

[Culebras]

The Skulltakers:

Out of the question. It simply doesn't fit with the WE's characteristics to be bloodthirsty savages. That's normverse loyalist WE, the Dornian Heresy loyalist WE are measured, self controlled paladins, who will eliminate any unit who commits such acts. It defies everything Angron belived in. So it's a no go.

 

Hmm, perhaps remove the savagery. However, the skull taking might still be interesting to look into. Maybe instead of simply tearing off heads and wearing skulls around their neck, these fellows might take the skulls of foes they consider worthy enough. These skulls are then placed on their ship or whatever, a sort of shrine for the opponents who, despite being on the wrong side, were rather worthy.

 

I was thinking maybe, instead of them being a badge of honor, its a badge of shame or something. Turn it around and make it the opposite of the normal verse.

[malika666]

But isn;t the badge of shame thing already what's going on in the normal verse? I mean marines wearing skulls as throphies seem to do it to humiliate their opponents or scare their foes. What if the World Eaters collect the skulls to honor their opponents, the idea being that they were worthy enough to have their skulls taken from them and serve the Emperor, maybe even as Servo Skulls...

[blackoption]

The Skulltakers:

Out of the question. It simply doesn't fit with the WE's characteristics to be bloodthirsty savages. That's normverse loyalist WE, the Dornian Heresy loyalist WE are measured, self controlled paladins, who will eliminate any unit who commits such acts. It defies everything Angron belived in. So it's a no go.

 

Hmm, perhaps remove the savagery. However, the skull taking might still be interesting to look into. Maybe instead of simply tearing off heads and wearing skulls around their neck, these fellows might take the skulls of foes they consider worthy enough. These skulls are then placed on their ship or whatever, a sort of shrine for the opponents who, despite being on the wrong side, were rather worthy.

 

I was thinking maybe, instead of them being a badge of honor, its a badge of shame or something. Turn it around and make it the opposite of the normal verse.

 

How about this... the Skulltakers are a penitent unit within the World Eaters. Astartes who have failed, through word or deed, to live up to the example of their primarch. To be marked as a Skulltaker is an insult that only those inside the legion know about. Yet, the Skulltakers units volunteer for a "Last Chancer" style mission to redeem their honor in the eyes of their primarch and the emperor.

 

This idea just popped in my head. The inspiration comes from the short story between the Space Wolf and the World Eater Captain. Their disgust for the wolves and their behaviour could translate into skulltaker being an insult

[Kelbor-Hal]

Hmmm... Maybe it could be turned to a thing like the normverse Imperial Fists' ritual with the bones of their fallen bredren. Honouring the greatest by takeing their skulls.

But I like the last chancer option as well. It could be a thing like the Night Lords' practise of painting the wrongdoers' hands red.

[malika666]

The Skulltakers:

Out of the question. It simply doesn't fit with the WE's characteristics to be bloodthirsty savages. That's normverse loyalist WE, the Dornian Heresy loyalist WE are measured, self controlled paladins, who will eliminate any unit who commits such acts. It defies everything Angron belived in. So it's a no go.

 

Hmm, perhaps remove the savagery. However, the skull taking might still be interesting to look into. Maybe instead of simply tearing off heads and wearing skulls around their neck, these fellows might take the skulls of foes they consider worthy enough. These skulls are then placed on their ship or whatever, a sort of shrine for the opponents who, despite being on the wrong side, were rather worthy.

 

I was thinking maybe, instead of them being a badge of honor, its a badge of shame or something. Turn it around and make it the opposite of the normal verse.

 

How about this... the Skulltakers are a penitent unit within the World Eaters. Astartes who have failed, through word or deed, to live up to the example of their primarch. To be marked as a Skulltaker is an insult that only those inside the legion know about. Yet, the Skulltakers units volunteer for a "Last Chancer" style mission to redeem their honor in the eyes of their primarch and the emperor.

 

This idea just popped in my head. The inspiration comes from the short story between the Space Wolf and the World Eater Captain. Their disgust for the wolves and their behaviour could translate into skulltaker being an insult

 

Dude, this is a lot better than the idea I had. The idea of "skulltaker" being an insult within the World Eaters Legion is a very nice touch and a cool sense of irony towards the norm-verse World Eaters. Zhufor's campaign on Vraks could be exactly that, a punishment campaign in which he can redeem his troops. Maybe the Sanctified are originally sent along to ensure this redemption. I can imagine the Skulltakers having more Chaplains or at least be under stricter supervision of Chaplains.

[blackoption]

Would it make more sense for the Skulltakers to be a single penitent unit, (e.g. The last chancers penial legion) or penitent squads (e.g. sisters repentia mixed with Blood Angels Death Company)?

 

For terms of the story, I'd say it would be easier to have them as a single unit. However, organizationally, as well as gameplay rules, it might make more sense to have the as speciality squads.

 

As for the Deathwatch/Maelstrom Wardens question, I'd go with calling the the Maelstrom Wardens.A multi-legion volunteer task force set around a specific region of space. So far, there has been no DIRECT translation of any single organization from Norm-verse to Dorn-verse. Since the Maelstrom is likely to be just as much of a hotzone as the EOT, veterans of the MW could return to their parent legions bringing the experiences of fighting Ultramar seditionists, Xenos, and Chaos forces with them. Not many places in the galaxy that many different types of enemies to fight.

[Culebras]

As for the Deathwatch/Maelstrom Wardens question, I'd go with calling the the Maelstrom Wardens.A multi-legion volunteer task force set around a specific region of space. So far, there has been no DIRECT translation of any single organization from Norm-verse to Dorn-verse. Since the Maelstrom is likely to be just as much of a hotzone as the EOT, veterans of the MW could return to their parent legions bringing the experiences of fighting Ultramar seditionists, Xenos, and Chaos forces with them. Not many places in the galaxy that many different types of enemies to fight.

 

That is certainly a possibility. The more I am thinking about it, the more I believe that the Badab war show become the Badab wars (plural). I'm drawing from the earlier idea of having Huron having thematic ties to the historic Richard the Lionheart. I'm still looking for a good Saladin replacement.

 

After looking at the malestroms location, I had the idea that Badab and the sector around the Maelstrom should be a sort of no man's land located in between the Imperium and Ultramar. Perhaps it exchanged hands several time over the last 10 millennium so It has gained a significance to both sides, much like the historic Jerusalem which was seen not only as a holy land but also a military target. Each group wants it, but neither has been able to hold it. add in the fact that you have chaos war bands hiding in the maelstrom and exploiting the porous border and you have a recipe for a lot of bloodshed.

 

If we stretch this idea further, than perhaps Lufgt the Lionheart earned his name leading a crusade against the Fire Hawks, or the legion of the damned, or the salamanders, or etc. That might be a way to tie in some of the odder, less chaosy chapters like the Sons of Medusa.

 

If we wanted to tie in more links to the canon universe, you could say that the Tiger Claws were a group/garrison force left by Huron that was keeping watch over the Malestrom only to be wiped out. Maybe they were wiped out by chaos, or perhaps the Ultramarines got tired of having chaos attack worlds in their systems and launched a crusade to take over Badab. That brings Lufgt and the Astral Claws back to the Badab sector with a crusade of their own.

 

Now that still leaves a lot unanswered. Like, what role did the Red Scorpions play? or the Minotaurs or the Mantis Warriors or the Lamenters? Not quite sure where to go from there, but once the dust is settled, yeah I completely agree that having the maelstrom protected by a permanent garrisonmight make sense. It would be really cool if we could find a way to incorporate all 9 of the loyal legions, but I don't know if that will work.

[Coryphaus 101]

Culebras you gave me a brilliant idea. What if instead of scrapping my old story we keep it and make it the first Badab War. In the second war, the Ultramarines turn their gaze to the Badab sector, wanting to expand their realm. Then lots if war, blood etc. followed by more wars. As for a Suladan replacement, I'd say Carab Culln or Idaeus.

[Allfather1]

Culebras you gave me a brilliant idea. What if instead of scrapping my old story we keep it and make it the first Badab War. In the second war, the Ultramarines turn their gaze to the Badab sector, wanting to expand their realm. Then lots if war, blood etc. followed by more wars. As for a Suladan replacement, I'd say Carab Culln or Idaeus.

 

Or you could squeeze it all into one war with four/five sides. Ultramar, Imperium, Chaos, Iron hands? (Sons of Medusa) with the Salamanders having planned the whole thing to deal both the Imperium and chaos a blow. The Iron hands could be defending one of their tomb worlds or keeping everyone away without it being obvious. Ultramar could just be expanding their borders. Each chapter involved could be split between these four/five factions. Chaos could be exploiting the chaos to break out of the Maelstorm. Ultramar and the Imperium would be the two main factions with the other factions fighting everyone else.

 

As for the Saladin replacement I agree that it should Carab Culln. But with Verant Ortys being commander before being slain. Carab would lead the forces of Ultramar.

This would place the Red Scorpions in the Ultramar camp.

This woudl make the forces as follows:

Imperial:

Astral Claws (World Eaters), Mantis Warriors (Legion?), Exorcists (Word bearers/Thousand Sons or Alpha Legion), Minotaurs (?), Tiger Claws (prehaps merged with the Astral Claws when their numbers were low?), Executioners (?)

Ultramar ( around 2850 marines)

Marines Errant (600 marines), Howling Griffons (250 marines), Novamarines (200 marines + scout and veterans), Red Scorpions (800 marines) and the Lamenters (1000 marines)

Malal

Salamanders

Chaos

Fire Angels, Fire Hawks, Raptors

Iron Hands

Sons of Medusa (named for their adherence to the culture of Medusa)

 

The numbers of the others can be decided when it comes up but I think the numbers for several of them would be the same, this so it connects with the real'verse a bit.

The Imperium is now facing a invasion of around 3000 marines with support (guardsmen). This could get the attention of several companies (Astral Claws and Tiger Claws). When Chaos tries to exploit the weakened defences other could join the fray. The Salamanders could direct the war (sp?) by helping one side and the other. (drawing the conflict out.)

The Sons of Medusa could attack whoever comes close to their tomb world.

[Kelbor-Hal]

Or you could squeeze it all into one war with four/five sides.

Better. This would be as epic as the original Badab War, and as epic as Warhammer 40K allows it to be.

[Culebras]

New ones

 

Crimson Consuls: the Crimson Consuls are, or more precisely were, an ultramarine chapter that is widely believed to be undergoing an extensive and lengthy rebuilding process. In reality, the Alpha Legion was able to successfully infiltrate and decimate the Consuls from within. Through a series of engineered disasters and targeted brainwashings, the Hydra effectively hollowed out the Chapter and leaving just enough of a veneer to maintain the appearance of its existence. Today, the Crimson Consul's are used as a cover identity and safe house for Alpha Legion agents who need to travel into the depths of Ultramar without drawing attention to themselves or to disappear. It is even possible that the Consul's Fortress-monastery of Slaughter-horn is now home to an important Captain or commander, though there is no proof of this. Less than a company of Consuls survive, led by the brainwashed former Chapter Master Elias Artegall, and they exist merely to divert attention away from the truth.

 

The Crimson Castellan: The nickname of iron warrior Warsmith Sojai Antiro. He and and a sizable portion of his company were devoured while trying to defend the Hive World Sephrax from the Tyranids of Hive Fleet Jormungandr.

 

The Scourged: a small group of Thousand Sons known for pushing their telepathic abilities above and beyond normal limitations. This has granted them great insight into the minds of their enemies but also requires that they isolate themselves lest they be driven mad by the thoughts of others

 

Oracles of Change: A Thousand Son Grand Company, currently led by Epistolary Vanneus. Known for their use of precognition and divination to foresee and intercept major events that might lead to destabilization or revolution. Extremely dedicated to preserving the Imperium.

[Kelbor-Hal]

Crimson Consuls

Wicked, I'm all for it :rolleyes:

[Coryphaus 101]

Okay, I've starting writing. I really need to know what's happening with the Exorcists. I'm also thinking about getting rid of the Salamanders (I want them to stay but it's just too hard). I'll post a preview of what's happening when I get more done.

[Culebras]

Okay, I've starting writing. I really need to know what's happening with the Exorcists. I'm also thinking about getting rid of the Salamanders (I want them to stay but it's just too hard). I'll post a preview of what's happening when I get more done.

 

I say split the difference and make the Exorcists a joint crusade/task force instead of a single company bound to one legion. We can keep the main bulk as Word Bearers with about two hundred Thousand Sons "loaned" out to aid them as advisers. After rereading the Word bearer entry, it says that they were very casual and fluid with their company structure (with them being in companies of 500 and arranged based on what the tarot predicts), so it might make sense to say that they have stuck to this particular formation because "the emperor told them to." Its not perfect but it works.

[blackoption]

Okay, I've starting writing. I really need to know what's happening with the Exorcists. I'm also thinking about getting rid of the Salamanders (I want them to stay but it's just too hard). I'll post a preview of what's happening when I get more done.

 

For the Salamanders... how about they work from the shadows to prevent any of the sides from having a treaty of convenience? In norm-verse, it has been known for the Imperium and Eldar or the Imperium and Tau or the Imperium and X to work together either against a overwhelming threat (abbadon's black crusades for example) OR out of an unspoken agreement not to shoot each other till later (the necron/blood angel incident vs Tyranid).

 

Of the sides proposed, I can see Ultras and the Imperium gang up on the chaos or the Ultras and the Iron hands ignoring each other. The Salamanders could work to keep everyone fighting everyone and make sure no one gets the upper hand. Maybe the Angstrom Incident was a truce meeting between the Red Scorpions and the Astral Claws as they sent emissaries to discuss destroying the Chaos forces?

 

Just a thought.

[Coryphaus 101]

Well I had actually planned to have the Ultras and Imperium gang up to destroy chaos. I think what I'll do is they join up and when they are about to defeat the chaos forces, Lufgt is shot by a melta and Culln is injured somehow. Each side believes the other to be the culprit and the treaty is broken, causing even more war.

[modernangelofdeath]

Well I had actually planned to have the Ultras and Imperium gang up to destroy chaos. I think what I'll do is they join up and when they are about to defeat the chaos forces, Lufgt is shot by a melta and Culln is injured somehow. Each side believes the other to be the culprit and the treaty is broken, causing even more war.

 

maybe Culln is hit by a lightning claw to make the ultras anger kinda justified, kinda as if Lugft did it.

.

[Coryphaus 101]

Lufgt only gets the lightning claw after he's hit by a melta, I was thinking of Culln being hit by a chainaxe (the signature weapon of the World Eaters) or a lascannon.

[Culebras]

Well I had actually planned to have the Ultras and Imperium gang up to destroy chaos. I think what I'll do is they join up and when they are about to defeat the chaos forces, Lufgt is shot by a melta and Culln is injured somehow. Each side believes the other to be the culprit and the treaty is broken, causing even more war.

 

 

The only problem you have there is that the Imperium and the Ultra's really do not get along. Just look at all the stuff with the Alpha Legion. Also, if you are looking at the historic record, Saladin and King Richard never allied. they were always enemies fighting against each other. What did happen was Saladin was highly respected by his opponents for his chivalrous behavior so he became famous that way.

 

I would point to the peace talks where Culln's predecesor, Ortys, was shot killed by an outside assasin as a good place to work this. Maybe make this be the event when Lufgt is shot by a Salamander Melta. Also, I had a thought that maybe Ortys should be the saladin character and when Culln rises to replace him, he breaks with Ortys' treaty.

 

On a side note, with so many ultramarines getting involved, it would seem obvious that the Alpha legion would have players somewhere in the field. I was thinking the minotaurs, since the real world version has them described as having mysterious backers. Maybe a world Eater company with secret Alpha Legion backers?